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rebel357

Landing craft are badly needed with all the new towns coming

32 posts in this topic

How hard would it be too just reskin the fairmile and allow it to carry troops and maybe a truck or scout car?  

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@Bmbmwould be the man to ask
But figuring in what you would need to do to the polys to get a functional landing craft/barge (That includes the invisible parts, or you'd have a LC with DM and engines etc sticking up out of it that you can not see but people could probably shoot)
it might be easier to continue to just make a proper LC model?

Infantry we can do on the current FMB, but vehicles/guns, you are right, TT or nothing presently.
Hard to organize a TT for a short 3 or 4 km run.

I love the TT, but man is it a pain to get people to get situated and load up efficiently.
I also wish the crane was about 8 feet longer, and a bit faster in motion

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I cannot confirm or deny the eventual introduction of various landing craft. However they are clearly of interest.

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Why do we need the whole rigmarole of the crane for the TT? For that added feeling of authenticity? Why cant vehicles just "hitch" to the TT like a gun does to a truck? Who wants to sit for an hour as a TT loads up four vehicles, then sit there while sailing, and another age unloading?

 

S! Ian

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Because the cargo must be in the hold. If you could hitch you would likely attach to the exterior hull or halfway thru it, which would look rather silly. The obvious solution is a RO-RO ship :)

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11 minutes ago, Bmbm said:

Because the cargo must be in the hold. If you could hitch you would likely attach to the exterior hull or halfway thru it, which would look rather silly. The obvious solution is a RO-RO ship :)

When guns hitch to a truck they do not randomly connect to just any part of the tow vehicle.

When Inf jump on a truck they don't sit randomly on the roof or the engine - so it should be possible to have the hold of the TT function as the "hold" of a truck.

Yes a RORO is the best solution, but that means new modelling etc etc. using up valuable RAT resources.

Just jumping into the hold of existing TTs seems the simplest solution.

 

S! Ian

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1 hour ago, Bmbm said:

Because the cargo must be in the hold. If you could hitch you would likely attach to the exterior hull or halfway thru it, which would look rather silly. The obvious solution is a RO-RO ship 

MAybe the 'hitch' command could put them into the hold.  Just like a paratrooper into a plane.

Edited by forrest

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There's been talk lately by CRS about using historical weapon-introduction timelines all the way through the game, irrespective of how events flow once the game starts. Does that also apply to landing craft and RO-RO transports?

 

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Yes, possibly with some amends made for gameplay. As you know the Allied naval and amphibious capability dwarfed the Axis but AFAIK both sides fielded appropriate craft in various categories and in roughly the same timeframe.

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Personally some of the most fun with TT is watching the tanks get loaded. It is little things like that which increase the sense of immersion when you just roll up, hit T, and warp into the hold.

There is always a big audience of ppl watching as 4 tanks line up and get loaded. 

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8 hours ago, ian77 said:

Why do we need the whole rigmarole of the crane for the TT? For that added feeling of authenticity? Why cant vehicles just "hitch" to the TT like a gun does to a truck? Who wants to sit for an hour as a TT loads up four vehicles, then sit there while sailing, and another age unloading?

 

S! Ian

And while we are at it why don't we introduce the "warp across the channel" function for transport ships? And spawning bombers mid-air at 4km alt and just above enemy factories?

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If TTs ever become an MS, would be nice if the loaded tank becomes a part of the spawn list/PPO so that the driver doesn't have to endure the voyage.

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43 minutes ago, bogol said:

And while we are at it why don't we introduce the "warp across the channel" function for transport ships? And spawning bombers mid-air at 4km alt and just above enemy factories?

Exactly. One of the key tenets of WWIOL is that you can interdict the enemy. So that means if you get caught surprised you only have yourself to blame.

Warping armor across the English Channel is the exact opposite of player-driven interdict ability. It becomes that same as calling in an air strike in a shoebox FPS game... Just an AI script that you can't prevent or defend against.

Yes attacking England is hard. AS IT SHOULD BE. The times England has successfully been invaded it has been due to intricate planning, and those are some of the best WWIOL moments.

Insta-tank armies spawning out of a TT are the opposite and do little to promote players and squad coordination.

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3 hours ago, Bmbm said:

... in roughly the same timeframe.

Before T0 for the British. They used early drop-ramp boats in the Norway action, launched by crane from heavy-transport freighters.

Arguably that would apply to the French as well...the British-crewed boats in Norway transported French H tanks and partly French troops.

T1 (or later, T1.5) for drop-ramp boats for the Germans. First use was in the invasion of Russia. Prior to development of the first version of the drop-ramp MFP series, the Germans had only Siebel Ferries, i.e. low-side barges best suited for moving tanks and guns across large rivers, with no ability to survive at sea in rough weather, and very limited ability to land their payload across a beach until a dock could be built past the surf line.

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perhaps allow naval infantry mission leaders to place an FMS -- would at least allow ATGS and AAGs to spawn on  the beach. (would be a very limited number due to being a naval brigade)

 

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12 hours ago, ian77 said:

Why do we need the whole rigmarole of the crane for the TT? For that added feeling of authenticity? Why cant vehicles just "hitch" to the TT like a gun does to a truck? Who wants to sit for an hour as a TT loads up four vehicles, then sit there while sailing, and another age unloading?

 

S! Ian

Just me personally, when you do it with a semi organized group, it's kind of fun and immersive, plus i can load for a specific offloading order
to like get the trucks for FMS off first, top slot, lading side.
If you just hitched by driving up, you'd land wherever.
And how to you assure you unhitch and land on shore and not in the water?

 

 

4 hours ago, blggles said:

If TTs ever become an MS, would be nice if the loaded tank becomes a part of the spawn list/PPO so that the driver doesn't have to endure the voyage.

If i had a magic wand, personally i would like to do something like this.
TT deploys off shore, and has a fixed non replenishing spawn list.
This keeps the TT hopefully out with the convoy for protection, and also insures the TT is not a full instant army

TT would be able to spawn X amount of landing boats at it's sides
Infantry could spawn at various places on its decks and hold
Vehicles would spawn at the present crane points
All the above, again, would only be in a limited amount, you would have to hit a port to "reload"

Crane would be fixed up a bit so you can offload a bit better and a little faster
and you start offloading the vehicles into the landing boats, the infantry can of course just go get on themselves.

TT might need to move just a wee bit faster for gameplay

Since the TT only has a finite amount of spawns, hopefully that might promote convoys going back and forth
sounds fun anyways, i'd go do it, but i want my TT to fly the jolly roger :)

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For lots of convoys/transports roaming the briny, let the captain leave a waypoint then abandon ship and busy himself elsewhere, with his vessel continuing on its merry way - a mobile PPO. No undue time commitment - more ships on the sea. Later he can rejoin and do whatever needs doing, then set another waypoint, homewards or wherever. And like a CP, his ship would send out an EWS warning of nearby nme, or opportunity, so he or his mate can spawn in and shoot the plane, or board the merchant vessel for riches and wenches.

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30 minutes ago, blggles said:

For lots of convoys/transports roaming the briny, let the captain leave a waypoint then abandon ship and busy himself elsewhere, with his vessel continuing on its merry way - a mobile PPO. No undue time commitment - more ships on the sea. Later he can rejoin and do whatever needs doing, then set another waypoint, homewards or wherever. And like a CP, his ship would send out an EWS warning of nearby nme, or opportunity, so he or his mate can spawn in and shoot the plane, or board the merchant vessel for riches and wenches.

Would love this and been the holy grail for navy since 2001. Persistent capital (and support) ships that are poly-crewed. When nobody is on the ship reverts to AI control and will follow pre-set waypoints. If enemy gets within EWS range broadcasts on side chat and players spawn in to man the guns.

As an added bonus let naval infantry spawn in on the ship purely for the spectacle of seeing the big navy guns firing!

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18 hours ago, bogol said:

And while we are at it why don't we introduce the "warp across the channel" function for transport ships? And spawning bombers mid-air at 4km alt and just above enemy factories?

Your blatant non sequitur is not a reason for doing away with the whole palaver of getting a tank or truck in just the right spot to be hoisted on to a ship, and then lowered into the right spot, and then...... well just sitting there.  You may as well argue that every bomber sit in a dispersal area until an armourer unit player has come to it and loaded its bombs, and then it must continue to sit awaiting another player driving the fuel tender to fill its tanks.  These are clearly not acceptable delays to pilots (paying customers) who want to play the game, but "oh think of the immersion". Why should ground players have to waste so much of their time loading transports? Why do you think it happens so rarely now? I looked at the stats for last map towards the end of the campaign, and there had been just 7 different players spawn a transport at that stage - and since the map finished in the East I doubt many more took to the high seas after this.

IF  you want people to use transports more, then the loading system needs to be simplified. Nobody is suggesting insta spawning on the otherside of the channel - what would be the point of loading a transport?? I am sure you think 10 guys riding on a truck for 15 mins to an AO, dying to AI or EA, respawning and driving in again is the real deal but the game has moved on, we have mobile spawns and if we ever went back to trucked in assault troops I suspect you would be lucky to find 10 players left in game to ride your truck to the battle.

 

Transports are hardly ever used anymore, and one contributing reason is they are so damn slow and tedious to load.

 

S! Ian

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19 hours ago, aismov said:

Personally some of the most fun with TT is watching the tanks get loaded. It is little things like that which increase the sense of immersion when you just roll up, hit T, and warp into the hold.

There is always a big audience of ppl watching as 4 tanks line up and get loaded. 

Really? When did an audience last turn up to see four tanks loaded on to a TT?

When were four tanks last loaded onto a TT?

When did you last see such a wonderous spectacle?

 

Any TT cargo I have seen for the last few years has been predominantly trucks - the essential element to set up a mobile spawn. the odd tank, but never four on one TT, not for many years.

 

Poor old Timbo69 goes from discord chn to chn trying to get just four guys to send their second accounts to get ONE TT going, never mind an invasion force with 4 tanks. Timbo is full of ideas for naval invaisions and TT action, but very few players seem to want to commit the time to getting loaded, transported and then unloaded once more.

I do remember seeing lots of TT ships,  with many trucks and tanks loading onto them back in the early 2000s, and with the possible exception of an occasional Sealion since 2010, I think that that is the spectacle you are recalling, rather than the state of the naval game today.

 

S! ian

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I think this gets the the core of the steady decile of WWIIOL gameplay over the last decade. Why for example are intermissions considered boring by most players when you have infinite supply of your favorite weapon to spawn?

It's a question of consequences.

When you remove consequences you will invariably cheapen the experience. We enjoy campaigns because of the consequence if winning and losing. This same argument can be extended to the FMS model. Why do players bemoan the lack of combined arms play today? Because you can spawn an infantry and warp from the FB right to the enemies doorstep. And if you ML was really clever he planted the FMS on the reverse side of town allowing you one even better... Slipping in through the backdoor. Again, with the FMS you removed all consequences of being shot at in transit over open terrain. And hence eliminated the need for ZOC, eliminated the need for armor to protect the attack corridor, eliminated the need for CAS to interdict the non-existent vehicles, and eliminated the need for interceptors to shoot down the non-existent bombers chasing non-E instant ground vehicles.

It is a model that creates a race to the lowest common denominator (Uncoordinated FMS spam where victory is determined by wheaten one side can put more up faster than the other takes them down). And that overall cheapens the WWIIOL moment.

What are some of the most exciting times players talk about in WWIIOL? It is exactky these "boring" times. Line when 30+ bombers are lined up on an airfield "doing nothing." When tanks are lining up to form a column. And yes when TTs are being loaded.

It creates a sense of immersion, and since their are now consequences in play (TT sinking, tank column ambushed, etc.) the psychology of WWIIOL takes over.

Nobody really talks about this much but one aspect of this games design is that a lot of the fun stems not from on-screen action, but off screen psychology. I can't remember many CP of AB captures. But I remember the sheer nervousness of a nighttime TT channel crossing.

You bring in more and more mobile spawning. And all of that psychology (and planning) goes out the window. It suddenly becomes a game of who can spam the most TTs and ninja slip them to some abandoned coastline and then hit the radio "TT FMS up!! Spawn spawn spawn." That promotes neither team play nor any real sense of immersion.

The solution here is a deeper navy game, and not applying the FMS shortcut to everything.

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Just by skipping the rigmarole of the crane lifting vehicles one by one into the hold by pressing H or J does not mean we shall have spamming of TTs and ninja invasions. Good grief, the RATs can leave in the crane if it means so much to so few (how many nay sayers actually went on a TT invasion last map I wonder?), but you might get some more TT action giving pilots and naval guys more to do away from the single AO or DO (I know 1.36 will have a minimum of 2 AO/DO) The TT still has to get there, the trucks and tanks still have to sit in the hold, all I suggest we change is the complex, immersive though it is, loading procedure.

I can remember the monotony of sailing the channel and sinking prior to landing, of sailing the channel and either me or the TT losing connection. I also have many vivid recollections of desperate fights guarding and capping CPs and Bunkers, often wounded, as one by one the cutting team is depleted and then the cappers start to die, and BINGO! the spawn is capped. There are more of those exciting caps and defences every single day in the campaign than there are nostalgic TT journeys in an entire map.

Seriously Aismov, in the last two years how often have you loaded a TT or been loaded on to a TT? If the answer is not that often why stop others from doing it just a little bit quicker? Don't get me wrong, even avoiding the balls ache of being craned on board a TT wont make me want to sit in a truck or tank for hours in a hold, but Timbo69 might persuade a few more to do it, possibly with their second accounts.

AND don't forget, with the punitive Over Pop spawn timers, 10 or 15 accounts at sea are spawned in and counting without contributing anything to the ongoing AOs. In the good old days we did not have spawn delays and punitive cap timers, we had a hell of a lot more players and the game was SO different and exciting and new compared to anything else most of us had ever seen. Yes you are absolutely correct, the ride in was part of the fun, but partly because to be in a game and able to ride a truck was a new experience. Playing and chatting in a game with other real people in real time from all over the world was a new experience. It was just WOW!

That was 18 years ago.

Riding in a truck is no longer a novelty, playing online with others is no longer a novelty.

Spawning a tank or truck, driving to the docks, and waiting to be loaded, then trying 10 times to get into just the right spot because the image and relative positions you see in game may be offset for the TT driver, well I don't see that as an appealing novelty, and judging by the handful of players who undertake TT operations the vast majority of the playerbase dont view it as fun either.

 

S! Ian

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16 hours ago, aismov said:

Would love this and been the holy grail for navy since 2001. Persistent capital (and support) ships that are poly-crewed. When nobody is on the ship reverts to AI control and will follow pre-set waypoints. If enemy gets within EWS range broadcasts on side chat and players spawn in to man the guns.

As an added bonus let naval infantry spawn in on the ship purely for the spectacle of seeing the big navy guns firing!

How can you possibly "love this"? So, you now want ships to be on auto pilot until the action starts, and yet you keeping banging on about the immersion of being winched on to a TT and sitting in the hold on a terrifying night crossing of the channel?

Which is it? Sitting in the hold, or off doing something else until the AI captain of the ship announces the fun (the "holy grail for navy") is about to happen?

Seriously, it is like two different people posting under the same account name.

 

Easy loading = evil and kills the games immersion

Auto Pilot AI "call me when something good happens = The Holy Grail

 

I am truly just sitting here shaking my head in utter disbelief.

 

WOW!

 

S! Ian

 

 

 

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Honestly, the requirement to have players 'in the hold' is in and of itself, totally unrealistic. people aren't 'in' the vehicles while they're being transported. It would be more realistic to have Transports spawn with x,y,z already in the hold and a one shot FMS that had X amount of infantry.

 

FWIW though - I'll echo aismov's desire for AI. The game would benefit a lot from having 'management' AI routines. Why can't a mission leader order trucks to drop of guns here and there and over yonder? This insistence/requirement that players do every job will always prevent us from scaling. Proper AI may smooth out a lot of rough edges. Hell, flags on map likely would have succeeded to a larger extent if HC were merely managing AI that was in turn shuffling around supply from the factories, to the flags, then moving the flags around based on player initiated strategy.

yet we can't have that discussion because AI = the devil. Yet, we also can't remove the terrible AI we have at every single town because ... idk. We must retain AI that literally shoots at us, yet we won't entertain AI that sets up and maintains the bttle field for us.

so stupid.

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1 hour ago, ian77 said:

Just by skipping the rigmarole of the crane lifting vehicles one by one into the hold by pressing H or J does not mean we shall have spamming of TTs and ninja invasions. Good grief, the RATs can leave in the crane if it means so much to so few (how many nay sayers actually went on a TT invasion last map I wonder?), but you might get some more TT action giving pilots and naval guys more to do away from the single AO or DO (I know 1.36 will have a minimum of 2 AO/DO) The TT still has to get there, the trucks and tanks still have to sit in the hold, all I suggest we change is the complex, immersive though it is, loading procedure.

I can remember the monotony of sailing the channel and sinking prior to landing, of sailing the channel and either me or the TT losing connection. I also have many vivid recollections of desperate fights guarding and capping CPs and Bunkers, often wounded, as one by one the cutting team is depleted and then the cappers start to die, and BINGO! the spawn is capped. There are more of those exciting caps and defences every single day in the campaign than there are nostalgic TT journeys in an entire map.

Seriously Aismov, in the last two years how often have you loaded a TT or been loaded on to a TT? If the answer is not that often why stop others from doing it just a little bit quicker? Don't get me wrong, even avoiding the balls ache of being craned on board a TT wont make me want to sit in a truck or tank for hours in a hold, but Timbo69 might persuade a few more to do it, possibly with their second accounts.

AND don't forget, with the punitive Over Pop spawn timers, 10 or 15 accounts at sea are spawned in and counting without contributing anything to the ongoing AOs. In the good old days we did not have spawn delays and punitive cap timers, we had a hell of a lot more players and the game was SO different and exciting and new compared to anything else most of us had ever seen. Yes you are absolutely correct, the ride in was part of the fun, but partly because to be in a game and able to ride a truck was a new experience. Playing and chatting in a game with other real people in real time from all over the world was a new experience. It was just WOW!

That was 18 years ago.

Riding in a truck is no longer a novelty, playing online with others is no longer a novelty.

Spawning a tank or truck, driving to the docks, and waiting to be loaded, then trying 10 times to get into just the right spot because the image and relative positions you see in game may be offset for the TT driver, well I don't see that as an appealing novelty, and judging by the handful of players who undertake TT operations the vast majority of the playerbase dont view it as fun either.

 

S! Ian

I've been saying this for a while now, as have several others.  Nostalgia can be the worst enemy of progress and development.  

 

I do think the Rats are aware of this for the most part, but we still need to give feedback like this because they too have at times been sucked into the nostalgia rabbit hole.  

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