BMBM

Starting Monday: The Hardest Campaign Yet

324 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Mosizlak said:

My gripe is the disparity of the number of autos between the sides. 

You can argue about matties and 88s all day long, but the only argument worth a damn is infantry. 

When one side has many more SMGs than the other, that's gonna weigh heavily on the campaign's outcome.  People don't wanna use rifles vs auto weapons in close combat. 

I'll guard all day long if I have an SMG. Make me do it with a rifle vs SMGs? I'm out of that town, or at least I'm using something other than infantry. 

if they won't see 14 matties vs 7 232/3B is unbalanced, there's no hope for them seeing 100 autos vs 50 is unbalanced. frick they'll prob give more mortars to the side with less autos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, major0noob said:

if they won't see 14 matties vs 7 232/3B is unbalanced, there's no hope for them seeing 100 autos vs 50 is unbalanced. frick they'll prob give more mortars to the side with less autos

Wait - what? 14 matties? In what type of flag? Are you lumping CS matties with mk II's? 

Edit: Oh i see, u were talking about the 'eff up for tanks in allied inf flags that was corrected.

Edited by choad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, major0noob said:

if they won't see 14 matties vs 7 232/3B is unbalanced, there's no hope for them seeing 100 autos vs 50 is unbalanced. frick they'll prob give more mortars to the side with less autos

Yeah, dunno where they pulled those matilda numbers from. More insanity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree. This gets to the heart of the red vs blue argument compared to more national characteristics. So you end up with a ton of German semis to balance out the M1 Garand.

Lets let the campaign play out and see how things go. I'm all for making appropriate changes as necessary but I think that the system we have now is a good start since it is logical regarding real life production costs, historic deployments, and transparency to the playerbase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Bmbm said:

 

More gear usually doesn't help the losing side. 

 

 

Actually quite a few stated in this thread that they will log once their side runs out of SMGs to defend CPs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, choad said:

Wait - what? 14 matties? In what type of flag? Are you lumping CS matties with mk II's? 

Edit: Oh i see, u were talking about the 'eff up for tanks in allied inf flags that was corrected.

6 mk 2's and 8 CAS. both invunrable to all but the sapper, pak38 and 88. whereas the 3 units that can kill it are easely killed by the matties

compared to the stug with no MG and 232 which is only useful for anti inf

 

then there's the french, which have the much more useful 47mm and panny, as well as wacky laffly

 

the armour flags have way too many tanks...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they are armored flags, they are kinda supposed to have, ya know, armor?

You're yelling about stuff, but you havent even logged in and played to see what's going on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, major0noob said:

the armour flags have way too many tanks...

I agree. Only issue with the supplies I see in this campaign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, scotsman said:

What's the value of the 88 when the other side has no equivalent equipment? I don't see you complaining about that. 

The 88 is over valued.  It operates well in an environment where it can be surrounded by infantry and the Axis have near air supremacy.  Failing that, for a variety of reasons, it doesn't live up to its real life billing in the game.  Axis sappers remove far more heavy tanks than 88s.  They have for the last decade.  Here are the numbers from THIS campaign when the Axis have had to rely on 88s more than ever to knock out the heavies.

Matilda MK II  Killed 26 times by 88s and 58 times by sappers -- 8 killed by pak 36 and 12 killed by pak 38

Matilda MK II CS Killed 10 times by 88s and 28 times by sappers -- 6 killed by pak 36 and 4 killed by pak 38

Somua S-35  Killed 12 times by 88s and 25 times by sappers -- 40 times by the pak 36 and 6 killed by pak 38

Char B1 Bis   Killed 3 times by 88s and 9 times by sappers -- 7 times by the pak 36 and 1 killed by pak 38

Total 88 kills on Heavies 51

Total sapper kills on Heavies 120

Total Pak 36 kills on Heavies 61

Total Pak 38 kills on Heavies 23

 

Where is this 88 super weapon that everyone speaks of?  Campaign after campaign the sapper out paces the 88 on kills.  This campaign is particularly GOOD for the 88.  The video game and the real life billing do not meet up.  Yet the 88 in game gets reviewed by its historic reputation not how it actually performs in game.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, minky said:

Where is this 88 super weapon that everyone speaks of?

If the game had a 100Mt thermo nuclear bomb, and people did not make use of it
then it would not look so great either, right?

Yes the 88 needs a bit of team work, and in return you clean house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

If the game had a 100Mt thermo nuclear bomb, and people did not make use of it
then it would not look so great either, right?

Yes the 88 needs a bit of team work, and in return you clean house.

1 DLC Hurricane can clean out an entire AO of 88's in under 3 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, aismov said:

I disagree. This gets to the heart of the red vs blue argument compared to more national characteristics. So you end up with a ton of German semis to balance out the M1 Garand.

Well, except tier zero French inf flags get 2 .... yes 2 .... semi-autos. Compare that  to 80 vs 40 smg advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, major0noob said:

6 mk 2's and 8 CAS. both invunrable to all but the sapper, pak38 and 88. whereas the 3 units that can kill it are easely killed by the matties

compared to the stug with no MG and 232 which is only useful for anti inf

 

then there's the french, which have the much more useful 47mm and panny, as well as wacky laffly

 

the armour flags have way too many tanks...

Then the overall budgets can be lowered if need be.. I'll say this...it's easy to statistically test every weapon to see if the math says it was significant to an outcome - or not. I will not guess... but if the math says there is a balance issue with regards to budget size or a single weapon category.. it will stand out in the numbers and can be addressed. I'd much rather work this way than subjectively guess at everything. 

In one thread German players say tier 0 in the armor category is out of whack... yet it's easy to see who is winning etc. allied players say it's an automatic weapons imbalance...which in turn us disconnected from an imbalance in player population. The math won't lie. It will see through all that and isolate causes and effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, minky said:

The 88 is over valued.  It operates well in an environment where it can be surrounded by infantry and the Axis have near air supremacy.  Failing that, for a variety of reasons, it doesn't live up to its real life billing in the game.  Axis sappers remove far more heavy tanks than 88s.  They have for the last decade.  Here are the numbers from THIS campaign when the Axis have had to rely on 88s more than ever to knock out the heavies.

Matilda MK II  Killed 26 times by 88s and 58 times by sappers -- 8 killed by pak 36 and 12 killed by pak 38

Matilda MK II CS Killed 10 times by 88s and 28 times by sappers -- 6 killed by pak 36 and 4 killed by pak 38

Somua S-35  Killed 12 times by 88s and 25 times by sappers -- 40 times by the pak 36 and 6 killed by pak 38

Char B1 Bis   Killed 3 times by 88s and 9 times by sappers -- 7 times by the pak 36 and 1 killed by pak 38

Total 88 kills on Heavies 51

Total sapper kills on Heavies 120

Total Pak 36 kills on Heavies 61

Total Pak 38 kills on Heavies 23

 

Where is this 88 super weapon that everyone speaks of?  Campaign after campaign the sapper out paces the 88 on kills.  This campaign is particularly GOOD for the 88.  The video game and the real life billing do not meet up.  Yet the 88 in game gets reviewed by its historic reputation not how it actually performs in game.  

It all comes out in the wash at the end of the campaign in data...the Axis have the 88... there is no allied analog. T testing the data will show what was and what was not significant. If what is being posted on the delta in mission minutes is true though, then that will likely test positive to outcome while the rest might be noise buried by that number. 

Math isn't side biased ... and it will show significant to non-significant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, minky said:

1 DLC Hurricane can clean out an entire AO of 88's in under 3 minutes.

one rifleman waltzing around your AB cleans out every 88 pak38 and pak 38 you own
what does that say saronin?

hint, there is only 1 answer

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, scotsman said:

The math won't lie. It will see through all that and isolate causes and effect.

The math won't lie, but the way we interpret it might be misleading. As long as there is a large imbalance in population, I would argue we should not take the outcome of the campaign as an indication of how balanced the equipment lists are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, bogol said:

The math won't lie, but the way we interpret it might be misleading. As long as there is a large imbalance in population, I would argue we should not take the outcome of the campaign as an indication of how balanced the equipment lists are. 

Certainly true if it plays out the player population was the only or significant driver. I guess my bottom line here is that CRS is being completely transparent in how things were set up and how they will be tested after the fact, and how adjustments will be made. To my way of thinking it's far better than guesswork or believing (perhaps wrongly)  what is significant and what isn't. Honestly I don't know a more fair or unbiased way to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

one rifleman waltzing around your AB cleans out every 88 pak38 and pak 38 you own
what does that say saronin?

hint, there is only 1 answer

Here is your hint.  I have more sorties in both the Axis and Allied armies than you have total in either.... and with twice your K/D.  In fact, I bet I have more 88 sorties than you have Axis sorties in total.  I know exactly what its strengths and weaknesses are and why it doesn't hold up in game.  I know because I have played with it and against it... extensively. 

Yet when spawn lists are developed by people who have a combined 548 Axis sorties (one with a grand total of 2) in 17 years, I'm supposed to take their word as gospel that it's a super weapon... even though they haven't really used the thing on the in game playing field.  

Ok merlin.... show me.  Spawn 88's and show me how to wipe the Allies clean out of tanks with the 88.  Let's see you run around this campaign with an 88 and make things happen.  Up above you implied with your thermonuclear device comment that people just don't know how to make use of it.  Put up or shut up bud.... Let's see some real 88 killing stats.  Show us how its done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. The 88's 2019 version became a pale joke from what it was from his old version yearzzzz ago. I'll go cap bunkers instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@minkythe issue is that a well placed 88 or two can shut down an attack by sheer weight of psychology. I know because I've done it multiple times. Tell me the last time that sappers were able to do the same?

K/D is not all of the story. There is a large psychological aspect to weapons as well.

Because players dont use it to its full advantage is our fault not that of the game design. Now if 88s were inordinately difficult to set up I would be in agreement, but it's honestly not that hard to tow and position a gun. And any fine adjustments you can push yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just mentioning, the psychological effect seeing an unkillable matty charging your position while shrugging off fire from all your tanks and atgs is a bit disheartening as well. Look at matty k/d vs axis armor and its clear to see what is better, and vs axis atgs is just pathetic for us. But we just weather his attack and wait patiently for him to stop so we can sap him... adapt, improvise, overcome. 

Love the new ToE btw.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What like arras in real life? Say it isn't so! Then again you now have some pak-38 in tier zero which frankly you should have had all along. 

vg8H9UH_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&f

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

psycological warfare will only drive the game pop down.

you're underestimating the populations value for balance and fun. we don't get paid to simulate warfare, we sub to have a good time.

 

a balanced ToE and no BS gameplay are key to having fun. 14 matties vs 4 232's & 3 stugs , and auto disparity isn't a good time.

you guys worked hard on it, but you gotta own up to mistakes.

 

this is want i was rambling about in that other thread, anti-constructive attitude: refusing to see a problem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, major0noob said:

psycological warfare will only drive the game pop down.

you're underestimating the populations value for balance and fun. we don't get paid to simulate warfare, we sub to have a good time.

 

a balanced ToE and no BS gameplay are key to having fun. 14 matties vs 4 232's & 3 stugs , and auto disparity isn't a good time.

you guys worked hard on it, but you gotta own up to mistakes.

 

this is want i was rambling about in that other thread, anti-constructive attitude: refusing to see a problem

Nailed it. m8. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pattio said:

But we just weather his attack and wait patiently for him to stop so we can sap him... adapt, improvise, overcome. 

If you never stop moving as a Matty in T0, your survivability skyrockets simply because you are entirely negating the #1 Matty threat:  the sapper.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.