BMBM

Starting Monday: The Hardest Campaign Yet

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was waiting for the [censored]ing(complaining) apparently b i t c h i n g isnt a word ??  to start....just as well the seal clubbers are taking towns for giggles. Otherwise ya looks dodgy to me. If we had balanced numbers the spawn list would be causing problem methinks

Edited by goreblimey

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7 hours ago, jwilly said:

That's incorrect for T0.

All German production went to France...historically, until that fighting ended.

Part of British 1940 production went to France...the rest went to North Africa.

So the correct spin is opposite to what you said.

You seriously suggest that we should reenact distribution? Because by that standard we'd pull all panzers out of France and ship them to Yugoslavia, Greece, N Africa and Russia by tier 1. Leave some repainted R35s and the Luftwaffe to fend for themselves.

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28 minutes ago, delems said:

I saw 6 matties in 1 brit INF flag and 29 more smaller tanks; for a total of 35.

There should be no light tanks in the BEF inf brigades. Investigating.

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just checked the flags supply levels on both sides, if the tank pop were higher i'd be outraged. even playing allied curbstomping axis is just bad sport

with the current tanker pop, even intermission supply would be inconsequential... those 4 232's are enough to end attacks

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1 minute ago, Bmbm said:

You seriously suggest that we should reenact distribution? Because by that standard we'd pull all panzers out of France and ship them to Yugoslavia, Greece, N Africa and Russia by tier 1. Leave some repainted R35s and the Luftwaffe to fend for themselves.

Old-CRS's policy was:

1. Pre-May-1940 history remains as is. 

2. History in other conflict zones that is substantially independent of game events remains as is.

3. History that depended on events that are re-determined by game events is rewritten corresponding to what happens or doesn't happen in-game.

The first major expansion of the German Army after France was made possible by the quick campaign end and very low German casualties among divisional officers and non-coms. That permitted each division's leaders to be extracted as a cadre around which a new division was formed, with the prior seconds-in-command taking over the original division. In some cases, two cadres were extracted from the same deep-leadership, proven-effective division. It was the Heer expansion after France that made enough forces available to garrison territory while sending combat units to the Balkans, Greece and North Afrika.

The second expansion after Balkans/Greece made the Heer large enough for the Soviet Union attack.

Without a victory in France, the entire German Army would have to remain committed there. Cadre extraction cannot occur in a sustained-fighting, continuing-losses environment, because effective leaders are out in front and take calculated risks, and too many of them die. Plus, a high-weapons-use/loss environment would prevent German industry from "getting ahead" to equip new divisions, because they'd be replenishing those losses.

Without the first expansion, there could have been no Balkans/Greece campaign, and without Balkans/Greece there could have been no Soviet Union invasion.

So, no, if the Germans haven't won yet against France/Belgium/Britain, there could not be substantial withdrawals, and the other campaigns don't occur as they did historically.

Old-CRS wasn't always consistent with the above, of course. Nonetheless it was the foundation of the game's backstory.

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Nor wishing for a nerf on the brits , however. The whole setup of Brit divisions is wrong No Brit units have HVY Arm intrinsic to basically an INF Division .  They may be called infantry Tanks but they're not permanently assigned to Infantry Divisions.  BEF only had Inf Tanks As part of the GHQ Corps  Troops.

I realise we have what we have but most of this TOE is fantasy for all sides. 

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In the context of a practical game structure, the Brit arrangement is OK. RTR elements (infantry tanks) were assigned to operate and coordinate with infantry divisions at Arras, and in North Africa many times. Just think of the British Infantry Brigade structure as an infantry element with an attached RTR element.

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I understand that for games sake,  that rational can be followed ie HQ troops allocated to inf formations, however  you cant allocate the same HQ troops to 4 different locations at the same time :) 

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RTRs are not "HQ troops" in some unitary administrative sense. They were combat units with hierarchical structures, intended for deployment in support of infantry formations.

There were times in Libya when 4 or 7 RTR were attached to multiple infantry formations squadron by squadron. 

 

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I disagree the current allocation of infantry tanks implies there are enough for every infantry brigade to have good infantry tank support at all times... cant see that in 1940 sorry. 2 Regiment of Infantry tanks does not spread amongst 10 divisions, At present the Matilda II is over represented compared to its historical deployment in the Battle of France. That may have changed if France did not fall who knows..

How the game designers choose to balance the game is their issue , just lets be honest.   

Edited by goreblimey

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I'm not defending Bmbm's and CRS's TOE choices, but in fairness he's told us that those T0 TOEs are based on production numbers for the whole year of 1940...possibly in the upper 300s per an earlier Minky post...rather than the pre-May-1940 production of 22 or 23 depending on source.

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Sure if we apply scaling to the early Brits , as per later tiers for the germans maybe that works out. Who knows. I dont think they are doing themselves any favours trying to surprise us with TOE changes. Pre Publish the info , cant be that hard to do.

 

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8 hours ago, minky said:

Look at Discord in the morning US Time.  TZ 1.  There is one organized squad completely unopposed.  The game now is such that where that one squad goes the campaign goes with it for the most part.

Malvoc has predicted it in the other thread. This was always THE issue. They win 12 in a row now, they're just so good.

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7 hours ago, ian77 said:

Yes the balance has been "fixed" by removing 6 of the CS matties from each Inf flag. Of course, there are now 14 Matties in an Armoured Flag.......

Axis still have just a handful of AFVs in an inf flag, and guys asking "how do you fire the gun on the stug?"

If you see players asking how to shoot the Stug gun I would say , and do it polity to despawn and leave that platform alone for players that know how to use it. 

It's a tougher platform to master then any other in game , and I only know of 2 that do it rather with deadly perfection.

Even KMS is misinformed on the Stug, he thinks that shooting the gun mantel of a Matilda will do the Trick , I know better and it takes a lucky hit to disable the gun . 

No matter how close you are, we assaulted an FB yesterday and I was close to the Vehicle spawn when one each of the Matildas spawned , pounded that gun mantel and gun with Heat and AP rounds ( approx 10 each after some ammo resup) with the expected result , even the turret ring didn't do anything .

I was 150 meters from that Vehicle spawn . Of course KMS left the game when I wanted to tell him the result (which I knew from the beginning how this encounter vs the Matilda would end)

Unless you are an 88 or the rare pak38 ( which is a nice touch to get a few in tier0) or a Sapper the Matilda will be king on the field. Best Stug can do is track it far from town if possible and have him despawn with a MIA to take it out of the spawn pool.

Otherwise I do have to say what CRS is doing with the Spawn list adds spice and strategies to the game and I like it. 

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7 hours ago, goreblimey said:

was waiting for the [censored]ing(complaining) apparently b i t c h i n g isnt a word ??  to start....just as well the seal clubbers are taking towns for giggles. Otherwise ya looks dodgy to me. If we had balanced numbers the spawn list would be causing problem methinks

You are correct. Looking at TOM as an indicator of population ... Axis have a 25% bump over Allies so far this map. So whatever the armor advantage actually is - it's gonna be masked until Allied players show up.

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17 hours ago, Bmbm said:

You're not counting the panzers in the armored brigades. Lots of PzII, a fair number of Pz38(t) and PzIII-F, a handful of PzIVD and Stug3B. The Brits have lots of cheap, wafer A13s and lots of Vickers, plus a small handful of Matildas in the armored brigades. Their infantry brigades have a basket of Matildas with no other armor to support them. Remember that this is all balanced against an equal budget with quality tanks costing more, and with taking country-specific doctrines into account.

The Axis have the unparalleled Flak36, a few pak38 and Stukas (and a few 110 f/b) with the most powerful bomb in gamel. No, the Germans can't afford head to head armor slugfests - they have to use combined arms to overcome the heavy tank deficit until more powerful stuff comes along, and the pendulum swings again.

And again, we're going by raw factory production with no regard to where the tanks actually went IRL. If we did, 90% of all German armor would be romping around in Russia, not in France.

Axis were not in Russia in 1940.

UK had 23 Matties in France, and UK factory production was 34 per month in 1940.

Your historically accurate spawnlist produces more Matties every 15 hours than the UK could produce in a month.

Worryingly and sadly, the Allies seem unable to make all these Matties count. It would be nice to be able to spawn a panzer rather than be restricted to just an assault gun or scout car in half the axis flags (and considering the weakness of HQs) realistically now two thirds of Axis front line flags.

Not sure what the solution is if allies wont log in to game.

 

S! ian

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6 hours ago, jwilly said:

In the context of a practical game structure, the Brit arrangement is OK. RTR elements (infantry tanks) were assigned to operate and coordinate with infantry divisions at Arras, and in North Africa many times. Just think of the British Infantry Brigade structure as an infantry element with an attached RTR element.

Agreed, and similar deal with M10s for the Americans, usually a TD battalion assigned to a division.

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4 hours ago, ebert101 said:

 

Malvoc has predicted it in the other thread. This was always THE issue. They win 12 in a row now, they're just so good.

12 campaigns eh? That’s unheard of in the history of the game afaik.

 

Ouch.

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6 hours ago, goreblimey said:

Pre Publish the info , cant be that hard to do.

It's not hard, except that the list was undergoing edits into the final hours before campaign start and is still being corrected for weird errors (it's a 1000 lines document, times 4, plus budget review). I woke up 6 hrs later, went to 10 hr IRL work, and have had no time at all for my regular tasks apart from desperate tweaks and fixes. We are >that< understaffed. I hope you have it in you to understand and give us some leeway if we don't always match your expectations.

S!

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12 minutes ago, Bmbm said:

It's not hard, except that the list was undergoing edits into the final hours before campaign start and is still being corrected for weird errors (it's a 1000 lines document, times 4, plus budget review). I woke up 6 hrs later, went to 10 hr IRL work, and have had no time at all for my regular tasks apart from desperate tweaks and fixes. We are >that< understaffed. I hope you have it in you to understand and give us some leeway if we don't always match your expectations.

S!

Whoa wait what- this is literally an SQL-like update statement that zeros then loads the tier lists?  Or worse builds the tables from scratch each time?

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You'll have to ask Ohm for the details. I edit an excel document (a lot of hair-rising bleary-eyed hungry and ten-minutes-to-bedtime cross checking involved) and pass it on.

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1 hour ago, Capco said:

12 campaigns eh? That’s unheard of in the history of the game afaik.

 

Ouch.

It’s not their fault. They are just playing the game. Just like it wasn’t 3PZG’s fault a long time ago. They were just playing the game. What it shows is that spawn lists and equipment imbalances are pretty irrelevant in the face of raw numbers. Something everyone already knew.

Edited by minky

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This all started with an auto correct typo on a phone.  You all thought CRS was going to make TOEs more historical. They actually had typed hysterical but it was auto corrected to historical.  If you really want to understand the spawn lists you can watch the hacked CRS teleconference below where they explain the rationale for the whole thing. 

 

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1 hour ago, Capco said:

12 campaigns eh? That’s unheard of in the history of the game afaik.

 

Ouch.

Was talking about that squad that changed sides, when allied won.

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20 minutes ago, minky said:

It’s not their fault. They are just playing the game. Just like it wasn’t 3PZG’s fault a long time ago. They were just playing the game. What it shows is that spawn lists and equipment imbalances are pretty irrelevant in the face of raw numbers. Something everyone already knew b

What it shows more than anything is:

 

1) how low overall population is right now

2) how few vets the Allies have at their disposal over the past year and change

 

WHIPs are an excellent bunch of guys with a really good skill set, but I'm pretty sure they would be the first ones to tell us that they aren't some unbeatable powerhouse, at least in their own eyes.  It's absolutely not their problem to "fix" just for being arguably the best squad in the game right now.  

 

But if the Allies can no longer win campaigns without support from side switchers with supply lists as lopsided as this, that's potentially an extremely serious problem for the health of the game, and it's also something that 1.36 on its own will not fix.  Divisions getting cut off means nothing if there aren't enough players playing before those morale cascading events start to snowball in the first place.  

 

Just from conversations with several former squaddies, the Tiger mania of the past ~2 years was enough to get them to stop playing altogether, and somewhat including myself.  Before the additional Tigers though, the Axis were almost in as bad of shape as the Allies are now (but not for nearly as long as it has been for the Allies atm).  

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