OHM

When Tier 3 comes

79 posts in this topic

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 7:51 PM, jwilly said:

That history is after 1940, thus is irrelevant to game progress.

In-game, either the French have not been defeated as a nation...in which case, where did all their troops and weapons go?--or they have been defeated, in which case they should all be gone.

Having the French Army mostly disappear, even though the German army is still engaged, makes no historical sense.

Having 10% of Allied divisions fighting in France be French, even though France began the war with the largest army in Europe, is bizarre.

Please stop using phrases like historical sense.... you know it does no good.

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1 minute ago, ian77 said:

Please stop using phrases like historical sense.... you know it does no good.

no in this context i have to agree with jwilly.

 

yes, it is alternative history however he's right. either france holds the line and stays in the fight or they don't. if they stay in the fight, why would they seemingly disappear and get replaced by the americans? why would the americans who weren't even all for joining 'the foreign war' send troops en masse in 43 if france, britain, and democracy's existence at large weren't in dire straits?

france deserves the right to fight for its own soil till the bitter end.

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If there is more French and Brits, then the axis can kick our butts faster as the equipment is not up to par.

So lets have more of them, so the Americans can get off the map faster and have a short camp.

Isnt that what the Axis want?

 

The real question is, do you want good battles or fast camp win?

 

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On 1/15/2019 at 0:51 PM, jwilly said:

That history is after 1940, thus is irrelevant to game progress.

In-game, either the French have not been defeated as a nation...in which case, where did all their troops and weapons go?--or they have been defeated, in which case they should all be gone.

Having the French Army mostly disappear, even though the German army is still engaged, makes no historical sense.

Having 10% of Allied divisions fighting in France be French, even though France began the war with the largest army in Europe, is bizarre.

I tend to agree.  The Allies should have a full complement of French forces, British forces, AND U.S. forces once the U.S. arrives.  Presumably, and in the interests of good gameplay, the number of german divisions would/might need to go up to coincide.  In the 'universe' where the germans fail to knock France out of the war, it seems likely that they would have postponed their operations against the USSR, thus would have more divisions available for the western front.  Or we could just assume that the germans invaded the USSR despite not having secured their western flank... lol

 

S!

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6 hours ago, madrebel said:

no in this context i have to agree with jwilly.

 

yes, it is alternative history however he's right. either france holds the line and stays in the fight or they don't. if they stay in the fight, why would they seemingly disappear and get replaced by the americans? why would the americans who weren't even all for joining 'the foreign war' send troops en masse in 43 if france, britain, and democracy's existence at large weren't in dire straits?

france deserves the right to fight for its own soil till the bitter end.

Even in the alternate universe we reside in once France lasts longer than 6 weeks, the Japanese still would presumably decide to bomb Pearl Harbor, and the germans would still (some would say stupidly) abide by their treaty agreements and declare war on the U.S.  At that point, even in the alternate universe we reside in things kind of go to where they actually did go in Europe, where the powers decided upon a 'germany first' strategy.

 

I agree the French should be allowed to continue to fight in the same numbers as before the Americans arrive.  Any perceived disadvantage to the Allied side due to the perceived weakness of French forces can be offset by mixing them with British and/or American brigade deployments.

 

S!

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1 hour ago, augetout said:

Even in the alternate universe we reside in once France lasts longer than 6 weeks, the Japanese still would presumably decide to bomb Pearl Harbor, and the germans would still (some would say stupidly) abide by their treaty agreements and declare war on the U.S.  At that point, even in the alternate universe we reside in things kind of go to where they actually did go in Europe, where the powers decided upon a 'germany first' strategy.

 

I agree the French should be allowed to continue to fight in the same numbers as before the Americans arrive.  Any perceived disadvantage to the Allied side due to the perceived weakness of French forces can be offset by mixing them with British and/or American brigade deployments.

 

S!

If France, Britain, and possibly The Netherlands halt the Axis, would Japan still attack? French Indo China isn't a toothless Vichy territory to be walked into,  same for Dutch Indonesia, Hong Kong and Malaya. If Japan sees her ally fighting a long war in Europe does she not think twice about engaging in war with the Western powers plus USA? Axis rolling Europe in a few weeks boosted Japanese confidence, and presented easy initial pickings.

Even if Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, we the players run the axis side, so we will not be declaring war on the USA :) 

If France had held, would the US congress have allowed lend lease and other bending of the Neutrality Act?

S! ian

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I say 4 USA, 3 Brit and 3 French.  Or maybe 6, 2, 2.

Edited by delems

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4-4-2, 4-3-3, or a more exotic 3-4-2-1? Give the wing backs a chance to bomb forward on the wings and get the ball into the big man upfront in the box! Maybe shall even see the old Christmas Tree formation make a return?

1.36 makes flags some what redundant, but maybe flags should be 5-3-3 with an extra US Div representing just a small element of allied superior numbers?

 

S! Ian

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27 minutes ago, ian77 said:

If France, Britain, and possibly The Netherlands halt the Axis, would Japan still attack? French Indo China isn't a toothless Vichy territory to be walked into,  same for Dutch Indonesia, Hong Kong and Malaya. If Japan sees her ally fighting a long war in Europe does she not think twice about engaging in war with the Western powers plus USA? Axis rolling Europe in a few weeks boosted Japanese confidence, and presented easy initial pickings.

Even if Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, we the players run the axis side, so we will not be declaring war on the USA :) 

If France had held, would the US congress have allowed lend lease and other bending of the Neutrality Act?

S! ian

It is a fascinating set of subjects, imho.

Japan still attacks in a universe where Europe is holding, but delays a decision on French Indo China.  Japan was well aware that war with the U.S. meant war with the rest of the Allies (although it doesn't take much of a tinfoil hat to ponder why they didn't believe the USSR was a serious threat to the Japanese empire...).  My belief is Japanese confidence did not require any boosting from the war in Europe.

 

Players don't run the axis---they run the axis' military, which is why you will always be the bad guys... ;)  By the same token, Allied players run the military only, as well, or our American friends would enter far earlier in far greater numbers, with Pershings as opposed to Shermans, lol.

 

The US didn't allow lend lease for free even with a UK fighting by themselves.  The U.S. had other, (some would say anti-colonial) reasons for the lend-lease program(s).

 

S!

Edited by augetout

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If the Axis are not knocking on the gates of Moscow, Japan sees the USSR poised to avenge the defeat of 1905, and cannot risk the soviet hordes flooding into Korea and Northern China.

German success in Europe was crucial in convincing Japan that they could succeed in attacking the western powers and capturing the Southern Resource Area.  

S! Ian

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10 hours ago, OHM said:

We are going with this set up 

US = 5

UK = 4

FR = 1 

There are several comments here that French units are inferior in combat power to American and British ones. (And similar comments about eventual Italian units, but that'll be a later discussion.)

Given that the French progressively become Framericans in new Tiers 2 through 5, why not just go all the way and arm them with entirely American weapons? What is the argument for having them be a weak hybrid?

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More fireflies the better, besides 5 us1 French and 4 U.K.. should be viewed more as 6 framericans, 4 U.K. :)

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And for that matter, why do American forces enter in old T3?  American ground forces were committed to the fight against Germany as of Operation Torch in November 1942. Obviously if France hasn't fallen, those forces wouldn't go to England then Morocco, they'd just go directly to France. So shouldn't any US forces enter in new T5 instead of new T6?

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14 minutes ago, jwilly said:

And for that matter, why do American forces enter in old T3?  American ground forces were committed to the fight against Germany as of Operation Torch in November 1942. Obviously if France hasn't fallen, those forces wouldn't go to England then Morocco, they'd just go directly to France. So shouldn't any US forces enter in new T5 instead of new T6?

Haha, like having 42 North Africa tigers in France?

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18 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Haha, like having 42 North Africa tigers in France?

Well, could be leningrad tigers?

Yea i know, the paint, everyone paints tigers in NA colors, guess it's just the most popular depiction?
I'd probably have done something more like this maybe
Vimoutiers_(Orne-France)_-_Char_Tigre_al

Know something funny?
The french forces, in 44/45 after the landings captured and used a tiger against the axis all the way back to germany.
It's the one on display at Saumur i believe?
(And even it is painted iirc in the NA scheme, weird)

Edited by Merlin51
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they may have left it that color to stand out on purpose. it was a tiger after all, having blatantly wrong or opposing colors to tigers that may be in the area on the other side reduces friendly fire possibilities?

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Not sure, i would not even know if that was its original paint scheme before restoration or not.
I do find it kind of amusing, a bunch of french guys chasing axis forces, in an AXIS tank

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33 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Well, could be leningrad tigers?

Yea i know, the paint, everyone paints tigers in NA colors, guess it's just the most popular depiction?
I'd probably have done something more like this maybe
Vimoutiers_(Orne-France)_-_Char_Tigre_al

Know something funny?
The french forces, in 44/45 after the landings captured and used a tiger against the axis all the way back to germany.
It's the one on display at Saumur i believe?
(And even it is painted iirc in the NA scheme, weird)

That would be cool especially with the implied Russian forces :)

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20 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Not sure, i would not even know if that was its original paint scheme before restoration or not.
I do find it kind of amusing, a bunch of french guys chasing axis forces, in an AXIS tank

The Finns did this a LOT to the Russians. Germans afaik mostly re-used their guns against them. 

*edit*

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-Germans-do-with-captured-or-disabled-Soviet-tanks

appears the Germans did it quite a bit too. Note the over marking though. I’m not aware of German tanks with the German cross on the front hull. Guess they wanted to be extra sure a friendly didn’t shoot at them.

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

they may have left it that color to stand out on purpose. it was a tiger after all, having blatantly wrong or opposing colors to tigers that may be in the area on the other side reduces friendly fire possibilities?

If I was a French tank crew running a Tiger in 1944-45, I'd want that baby painted blue, white and red. Instantly recognizable to every Allied gunner, no matter the angle, as a friendly.

french-flag-waving-animated-gif-1.gif

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On 1/14/2019 at 7:28 PM, OHM said:

We are thinking  when Tier 3 comes and the US come on the map to have this deployment of Divisions 

US = 5

UK = 4

FR = 1 

4/2/4 would be more realistic if the French has stopped the Germans.  

 

 

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Which of the current forces represents the Belgians?

They of course were the second largest Allied army...many times larger than the BEF.

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

The Finns did this a LOT to the Russians. Germans afaik mostly re-used their guns against them. 

*edit*

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-Germans-do-with-captured-or-disabled-Soviet-tanks

appears the Germans did it quite a bit too. Note the over marking though. I’m not aware of German tanks with the German cross on the front hull. Guess they wanted to be extra sure a friendly didn’t shoot at them.

Yes, even the US used a few captured things (Axis used captured EVERYTHING.

I just find it amusing French guys chasing the axis east

in a tiger

49 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Which of the current forces represents the Belgians?

France

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Why not make division numbers dependant on how much ground the French and British have when tier 3 starts. So if there is hardly any of France left in Allies hands (insert some % here) and choose how any divisions the French and Brits would have, and supplement the rest with Americans. 

 

So (God forbid) Allies are winning, there won't be as many US divisions about as less would be needed to reinforce. 

 

Just a thought 

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