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      Hells Gate   03/24/2019

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      Date: 3/30/19 Time: 11:00 AM Server time/ 12:00pm EST/ 1600 GMT
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Giving more value to the riflman: open brainstorming

140 posts in this topic

There's no way to coexist with potential customers who are committed to the concept that everything should be free.

It's a mistake to market the game to people who can't understand the simple math of how many hours of fun you can get a month here for the price of one movie ticket or a couple of cups of fancy coffee, versus how much fun you get for that same money somewhere else.

Eliminate "Free To Play". Their PTW accusations only make sense to people who think like them, that everything should be free. It's hopeless trying to explain otherwise to them. 

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Just now, jwilly said:

There's no way to coexist with potential customers who are committed to the concept that everything should be free.

Maybe stop making enemy of potential customers and assuming things about them that isn't true, hmm?

Edited by knucks

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1 hour ago, knucks said:

IF it works depends on IF you do it. For example if we kept the classic F2P of a basic unit from each tree, we may not have the same problems we have now. An IF is an IF though and it's not my business. :popcorn:

They tried it and it didn’t work.  What part of that is difficult?

Edited by GrAnit
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9 minutes ago, GrAnit said:

They tried it and it didn’t work.  What part of that is difficult?

They actually didn't. Prior to steam to removed most of the F2P equipment, and are now asking how to fix that, I don't know what to tell you :rolleyes:

Edited by knucks

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Speaking of FTP, it makes total sense for FTP folks to be able to read these forums, but...except for help and tech support...why can they post?

Over many years, lots of customers have felt the forums are a valuable part of the game experience. Why does CRS give away that value?

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lol. okay bud. there are plenty of forums out there to post freely in, but go ahead and charge people for yours. I'm sure that would look GREAT for you :D

/s

Edited by knucks

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Well the argument is that we never really tried true F2P since more powerful weapons were locked, hence claims game was pay2win (I can only spawn PzII but I need to pay to get PzIV and be able to destroy a Sherman).

I think there is some logic in that argument that this is in effect P2W. But we also can't deny the monetary reality that we don't have other monetization systems in place (camo skjns/decals/noseart/buildings) to offset the cost of F2P on the servers.

I think it's a moot point if discussing whether right now we can open up the spawn list completely to F2P... We can't.

But what is not moot is to have a real discussion whether CRS should expend developer effort to get the above monetization systems in place and turn WWIIOL system closer to the F2P versions of Planetside or EVE.

My own vote is yes. But in the meantime we should work on the steam page and more effectively communicate the pricing options and what you get (it's unclear with things like "medium tank"), and that the rifle is a limited free demo/trial account.

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6 minutes ago, knucks said:

lol. okay bud. there are plenty of forums out there to post freely in, but go ahead and charge people for yours. I'm sure that would look GREAT for you :D

/s

Hate to say it Knucks since you actually have good ideas. But you would be more effective in communicating your points if you cut out all the snide remarks which insinuate that other members don't know what they are taking about. You turn off a lot if ppl by the way you post. Just saying.

S!

 

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2 hours ago, xanthus said:

I just don't get what you all are talking about.

I'm premium, have played since 2001 (with some breaks here and there), and I play plain, unscoped rifle 99.9% of the time. It is the overall single best, most versatile inf-vs-inf weapon in the game, by far. Since we have no suppression effects, picking any other weapon vs inf is *usually* completely pointless (though at times, LMG can be useful if you have trouble leading especially warpy inf).

 

So I just fundamentally disagree with the premise of the thread; it is the *other* classes that are more limited than rifleman, not the other way around. Of course, I'm aware that the perception (especially among n00b free-players) is the opposite of what I'm saying, but after nearly 20 years of experience, I'm 100% convinced that that's an issue of perception, not battlefield reality.

If we had suppression effects (like in Post Scriptum), this would all be a VERY, VERY different story. Or if we had a weapon like the StG 44. Automatic weapons would be useful in new ways, and the bolt-action rifle's historical inadequacies would finally be revealed. But that's simply not the game world we're playing in at the moment.

 

BTW I'm not some delusional teenage gen Y-er who thinks that video games are reality, so that in the real world, bolt action rifles must be just as effective as modern assault rifles. As much as I love bolt action rifles, and as effective as I am in this game with them, InRangeTV had a great video showing plainly that they are utterly and hopelessly obsolete as anything other than a specialized sniper's weapon:

 

But my whole point is that our game is not reality. Without suppression effects, our game is more like a giant airsoft match.

I agree with this 100%, the problem isn't the Rifleman unit.  Like Xanthus, I play it nearly 99% of the time.  It IS the most versatile unit in the game, and if you master it, it offers the most rewarding sense of accomplishment.  Are there refinements to the rifle I'd like to see? Sure, but it's also a zero-sum game.  I think the main issues on rifle are more concealment related, and that most people think it's a close-combat unit, when it takes a ton of skill to use it effectively that way.

My take is that we are over-focused on the Rifleman being the F2P unit, when in my opinion it should be the SMG or some other close-range combat unit.   I mean don't we want more players? Don't we want there first experiences to be FUN?!?! and then they graduate to wanting to play more units, more versatility, etc...? Becoming more strategic in their play style? Graduate to a longer term sustainable user base.  I remember when I first played originally in 2002/2003 and I used a rifle, if it wasn't for the 91st helping me out I probably would have quit the game out of frustration.  There's so many other game experience and usage dynamics that work against a new player.   Geeze even after all these years I bang my head every time I try to setup a mission.

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12 minutes ago, aismov said:

Hate to say it Knucks since you actually have good ideas. But you would be more effective in communicating your points if you cut out all the snide remarks which insinuate that other members don't know what they are taking about. You turn off a lot if ppl by the way you post. Just saying.

S!

Of course I have good ideas, I do this A LOT. I have too much compassion to hold my tongue, if you don't want to get mocked then don't make your post so mockable! I don't feel bad when you say things like ban F2P players from the posting, but I do apologize because I know it's not always the most sensible thing.

Edited by knucks

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2 hours ago, tatonka said:

anything extra thing the rifleman gets ( ftp ) he should earn by capping flags. So many flags capped and he gets whatever .  Then they have a reason to cap .

could not agree more... 

 

OR DEFEND a CP or FB... Guard long enough or cap enough... and you can then get to play for a sortie or two with a paid unit as a reward.. nothing that would CHANGE the game or subs.. just a SMALL carrot that after 2-3 hours of playing with your rifle and doing useful stuff... you get to spawn a unit worth XX points for 1 go .. Maybe then the F2Ps actually have an incentive to do useful things and play as a team more than just "winning the map", which is a great incentive but comes later when you realise what "winning a map". 

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3 hours ago, knucks said:

You've been on the battle too long mate, a standard rifleman has no chance against an armored vehicle. That's a fact.

A standard rifleman, shouldn't have a chance against an armored vehicle.  SMGs don't have a chance against an armored vehicle, either, which is also proper.  An Infantryman's task is not to kill armor, it is to kill enemy Infantrymen, and either take ground or deny said ground to the enemy Infantry.  If an Infantryman so chooses, they can also act as a scout, sitting along enemy avenues of approach, or at their FBs, reporting to heavier units what the enemy is doing, and where they are heading.

 

S!

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1 hour ago, piercer said:

Geeze even after all these years I bang my head every time I try to setup a mission.

Amen brother!

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1 hour ago, knucks said:

They actually didn't. Prior to steam to removed most of the F2P equipment, and are now asking how to fix that, I don't know what to tell you :rolleyes:

Actually you are wrong. At Steam launch every F2P got a one month free trial of the premium sub. What happened is they created another F2P account to get another month. Similar to how a lot of the F2P forum posters here have 0 stats because they have another account and they use this as a smoke screen to promote their idea of the game should be

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11 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Actually you are wrong. At Steam launch every F2P got a one month free trial of the premium sub. What happened is they created another F2P account to get another month. Similar to how a lot of the F2P forum posters here have 0 stats because they have another account and they use this as a smoke screen to promote their idea of the game should be

Again great example of why we have to be careful of the unintended consequences of F2P. Without true ingame monetization as it stands now it is unworkable.

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49 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Actually you are wrong. At Steam launch every F2P got a one month free trial of the premium sub. What happened is they created another F2P account to get another month. Similar to how a lot of the F2P forum posters here have 0 stats because they have another account and they use this as a smoke screen to promote their idea of the game should be

No that's not a F2P, that's a trial. It's not the same. Point is F2P use to get rifle, AT, AA and a basic tank and you removed the AA/AT and tank prior to steam.
E.V.E online had the same thing, they didn't call it a F2P, they actually added a F2P and removed the Trial, you can read up on why they decided to do that but it worked.
Nothing is really unintended anymore. Plenty of MMO's have already paved the way for F2P being viable, it's just whether or not you believe their numbers.
F2P has yet to be faithfully tried here, maybe that's what needs to happen.

Edited by knucks

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23 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Look I don't mind that free play guys are in and capping, providing game value/content and what not, but I'm not interested in subsidizing the killing of PAYING tank guys when it's hard enough to operate as is.

Riflemen is not just free players ... even when Im subscribe I would always go rifleman rather smg until we have semis.

Btw I see myself as a tanker, I should have say have a small chance to get an Anti-Tank weapon.

 

I prefer to have more RPATs than Atg spawning in a FMS on the path to a P1, for me this has killed much of tank game while we more rpats their range is very limited and they have a big drop so almost every time players miss the tank at 100m plus refire is very slow. 

That said tank is pretty hard to kill as a infantry and when you are out of RPATs and Sappers and you camped, it doesn't seem realistic. 

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Just now, pbveteran said:

Riflemen is not just free players ... even when Im subscribe I would always go rifleman rather smg until we have semis.

Btw I see myself as a tanker, I should have say have a small chance to get an Anti-Tank weapon.

 

I prefer to have more RPATs than Atg spawning in a FMS on the path to a P1, for me this has killed much of tank game while we more rpats their range is very limited and they have a big drop so almost every time players miss the tank at 100m plus refire is very slow. 

That said tank is pretty hard to kill as a infantry and when you are out of RPATs and Sappers and you camped, it doesn't seem realistic. 

Yeah when a whole mission gets locked down because the F2P have nothing to pull to combat the armor, so everyone just sits around and does nothing for a while or moves missions. Seen this too many times, it's clearly the wrong way to go about the whole combined arms. Not saying Rifleman needs to be ultra class, but F2P needs all the pieces of the puzzle or they're just going to have the soul sucked from them getting spawn camped with no way to combat. So many greentags coming and going, you almost can't even play early morning-mid day because there isn't enough players filling enough roles.

Edited by knucks

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19 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

Riflemen is not just free players ... even when Im subscribe I would always go rifleman rather smg until we have semis.

Btw I see myself as a tanker, I should have say have a small chance to get an Anti-Tank weapon.

 

I prefer to have more RPATs than Atg spawning in a FMS on the path to a P1, for me this has killed much of tank game while we more rpats their range is very limited and they have a big drop so almost every time players miss the tank at 100m plus refire is very slow. 

That said tank is pretty hard to kill as a infantry and when you are out of RPATs and Sappers and you camped, it doesn't seem realistic. 

I've paid CRS for going on 18 years now with at least one sub, nowadays two, with a squad account available that is forever and unpaid.  I play rifle easily 85%+ of the time.

I have killed a tank as rifle (a IVG), but it's almost impossible to do nowadays.

Yes absolutely it is realistic that a tank would suppress an area absolutely against just infantry.  Absolutely yes.  What is not realistic is that there are only a few spawn points, an infantry formation in WWII usually extended for 1-4 km so the fixed spawn points are what makes camping possible.

Pay a sub and you can get a sapper or RPAT or ATR or AT guns of various capabilities or tanks or planes or ships.  Which is my option to try if I need to kill a tank. 

 

More of the time though I consider FMS to be an infinitely greater threat and are hunting those rather then tanks, and a rifle is supreme for that- long range fire, full on sneaky, once located can lay on a charge and call for other rifles or engineers or a truck.  Or a camping armor car/tank.

So ya, I'm more likely helping to get your FMS camped by armor.  Shoulda killed me before I found it.  Oh wait, you ARE a rifle.  Hmm, disorganized lemming spawning- background color to fighting the real killers.

That FMS is a priority to get rid of covering inf, and once a tank is shorn of infantry support, it is meat on the table.

 

Now if you are asking paying subscribers like me to subsidize your play and incentivize people who are hardcore inf to unsub and go F2P, no I'm not on board with that plan.

And I feel far more sympathy for the paying tanker then the not paying infantry.

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11 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Yes absolutely it is realistic that a tank would suppress an area absolutely against just infantry.  Absolutely yes.  What is not realistic is that there are only a few spawn points, an infantry formation in WWII usually extended for 1-4 km so the fixed spawn points are what makes camping possible.

Yes. Exactly this. S!

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56 minutes ago, knucks said:

No that's not a F2P, that's a trial. It's not the same. Point is F2P use to get rifle, AT, AA and a basic tank and you removed the AA/AT and tank prior to steam.
E.V.E online had the same thing, they didn't call it a F2P, they actually added a F2P and removed the Trial, you can read up on why they decided to do that but it worked.
Nothing is really unintended anymore. Plenty of MMO's have already paved the way for F2P being viable, it's just whether or not you believe their numbers.
F2P has yet to be faithfully tried here, maybe that's what needs to happen.

It's notable that almost all of the voices calling for the game to be entirely free are players that aren't paying anything now, and want more for nothing.

It'll take a bunch of resources to add monetization mechanisms, with no assurance that they'll work for this game because so many of the "free to play" customers actually want the game to be free for them.

What hooks players is the gameplay. Those same resources could be used to add even better gameplay.

Explain to us again why free-with-monetization is a good plan?

Would it make sense to go back to organic growth by attracting players that are actually looking for this kind of gameplay, and understand that nothing good can really be free...?

Edited by jwilly

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the game isn't F2P... the free account should be rebranded as a demo account

its not false marketing, but incorrect marketing

 

lot of you 5-18yr subs and rats don't understand what the F2P genre is today. it's like calling the game a RTS, technically true but incorrect

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4 hours ago, knucks said:

They actually didn't. Prior to steam to removed most of the F2P equipment, and are now asking how to fix that, I don't know what to tell you :rolleyes:

This is not true.
On release, all you had to do was show up and you got everything for 30 days free
After that, free players got something similar to the starter subscription, in that they got access to several units plus a weekly or monthly staff chosen bonus item, could be an ATG, could be anti tank rifles, etc.
There were various other ones tried as well.

Really the only feedback was everything should be free all the time and let someone else pay for it
no one was happy with anything except give us everything free.

There are now DLC which you only buy once and you keep them.
And people want those to be free, and say it is greedy

1 hour ago, knucks said:

Yeah when a whole mission gets locked down because the F2P have nothing to pull to combat the armor

Stop combating the armor.
Mark it, Disabled it, Blind it and go around it.
You can't combat armor with most infantry free or subscribed.

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The rifle is a fine weapon, just, took me a year to figure that out.

Unless I'm in CP defending, I mostly prefer rifle too, though LMG on occasion.

Riflemen should run or hide when they see tanks, nothing else; other than mark the tank, possibly kill the commander and maybe smoke the tank. (or kill ei with tank)

Let others kill the tank (your tankers, ATGs, air etc).

Combined arms really shines here.  And a rifle scout can be hugely valuable.

Edited by delems
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