knucks

VMS (Vehicle Mobile Spawn)

34 posts in this topic

Here's a suggestion that I think would build up battles better than the current iteration.
We have the Mobile Spawn, it spawns infantry, and light AA/AT. So it's an infantry spawn.
How about a Vehicle Mobile Spawn? or Mobile Vehicle spawn but that may be a bit redundant.
A tent object, maybe concrete that is spawned from a truck, just like the MS, and spawns these units.

-Trucks
-Halftracks
-Light-Medium armor
-Light-Medium mobile guns AA and AT

The downside being this building is large, hard to conceal and must be defended as you would a FOB. 
How does that sound. Combined it would make the MS and VMS like player-made Forward Bases, and there will be trucks and tanks to haul units in to counter the effect of MS having to be spawned further away due to the large VMS that players are likely going to always be placing down alongside infantry.

Edited by knucks

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I would be in favor of something like this as a replacement for FBs or even ABs, but not an adjunct that has tanks spawning right on top of towns.  I want more use of our open spaces and multi-km tank fights, not less.

 

I would prefer a randomized area spawn so there is a chance to spawn and fight rather then be camped, and the concrete/VMS thingy was more a control/rally/resupply point indicating the central area that the randomized spawn could occur in.

 

Come to think of it, that randomized spawning thing would make a lot of the objections to FMS camping moot.

 

Originally I had this randomize thing in mind for brigades, a brigade would have an actual spawn location outside of a town it was protecting instead of AB spawning, or placed forward for the attack (meaning it wasn't protecting it's host town anymore).  The brigade would have a physical location outside of spawns for the bulk of it's heavies, and enable finally doing artillery.

 

But the move to TBS kind of scotched doing that whole line of play.

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57 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

I would be in favor of something like this as a replacement for FBs or even ABs, but not an adjunct that has tanks spawning right on top of towns.  I want more use of our open spaces and multi-km tank fights, not less.I would prefer a randomized area spawn so there is a chance to spawn and fight rather then be camped, and the concrete/VMS thingy was more a control/rally/resupply point indicating the central area that the randomized spawn could occur in.  Come to think of it, that randomized spawning thing would make a lot of the objections to FMS camping mot.

Not as a replacement. I'm saying we have the MS for infantry, add a VMS for non-heavy vehicles. Perhaps light tanks and trucks only. The reason I think this would work exactly how you say you want open spaces, MS are placed in most cases stealthly, they are not usually defended heavily and because of that there's rarely the open space MS/FOB fight we'd like to see.

Making a VMS as a tie in with the regular MS, make it spawnable only within an MS, not independent of it, and is that not exactly like a player placed FB? You've got the infantry and the vehicles to take transport the infantry to the objective, where as before a good FB is within 500m, you'd want these ones at minimum 500m and in a good concealed area so equipment can spawn, PPO's will be very crucial in fortifying this position. This is the multiple FB idea people ask for, playermade FBs, and return of the days where you were often trucked into the fight, or alongside columns of tanks surrounded by field guns.

Edited by knucks

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Just so we are clear, how close to towns are you proposing a VMS can be set?

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The major gameplay mechanic that WWIIOL has that no other FPS game past or present has every managed to pull off is enemy interdictability. In games you simply magically spawn in a safe rear zone and then work your way up to the action. In WWIIOL the difference is that you are not safe in the "rear zone" since you can get ambushed by someone interdicting supply. That means you always have to be on your feet since like a real war death comes unexpectedly and it comes fast. By allowing a close VMS you effectively make yourself invulnerable during the trip from the spawn point to the action and deny the defenders way to stop you. Warping supply does the exact opposite of what we want since it eliminates any need for attackers to have a coordinated operation.

Nothing would be worse than enemy tanks suddenly popping up to your rear behind the lines because some clever ninja slipped a VMS in there. In order to have good gameplay you need to be able to hold a reasonable defensive line which is predicated on the fact that you don't have enemies magically appearing behind you in your undefended rear. This is what decimated the tank game when the FRU was introduced. You would try to form a defensive line outside town, some EI would slip through, plant a FRU, and suddenly sappers and RPATs were swarming you from the rear without warning.

I'm not discounting the idea of a VMS since I think a mobile forward base is a very interesting idea with very interesting implications, but it has to be very carefully coded since the unintended consequences of how it would be used/misused are pretty big.

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I'd rather just shut down the static FB's and go to making the players go set up their own.
And not 700m from town either

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17 hours ago, aismov said:

The major gameplay mechanic that WWIIOL has that no other FPS game past or present has every managed to pull off is enemy interdictability. In other games you simply magically spawn in a safe rear zone and then work your way up to the action. In WWIIOL the difference is that you are not safe in the "rear zone" since you can get ambushed by someone interdicting supply.

The problem with spawn interdictability is that by and large it doesn't model anything real. 

In 99% of WWII fighting, defenders were already in the defensive line, which was substantially secured by some combination of effectively continuous observability/fields of fire and mobility-preventing terrain, so enemy forces were not free to just drive around behind and attack. Attackers came at them from the front; defenders were not able to drive around behind the attackers either.

Spawn interdictability is the most unrealistic mechanic that old-CRS created. Other games have it right. WWIIOL has it badly wrong if realism is a goal.

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9 hours ago, jwilly said:

The problem with spawn interdictability is that by and large it doesn't model anything real. 

In 99% of WWII fighting, defenders were already in the defensive line, which was substantially secured by some combination of effectively continuous observability/fields of fire and mobility-preventing terrain, so enemy forces were not free to just drive around behind and attack. Attackers came at them from the front; defenders were not able to drive around behind the attackers either.

Spawn interdictability is the most unrealistic mechanic that old-CRS created. Other games have it right. WWIIOL has it badly wrong if realism is a goal.

Agree, but I always considered the area between towns on the front no mans land. So you aren't really driving behind the lines, you are ambushing someone in an active combat zone. But yes I see where you are coming from.

The key her is enterable vehicles that are persistent. Otherwise tanks are going to set a VMS right on your doorstep so they can camp ASAP.

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I do wonder what the game would be like if there were no fixed spawn points, therefore no place to camp. 

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1 hour ago, jwilly said:

I do wonder what the game would be like if there were no fixed spawn points, therefore no place to camp. 

I’d like to see that. 

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If a field vehicle spawn were to be added, maybe it could look like a field maintenance/repair unit's work tent.

Not all such units had such equipment, of course, but you can't do reliable work on electrical systems, engine internals or anything related to bearings or precision fits when exposed to rain/snow/dusty wind.

This particular tent is US, and I think is about the 1970s iteration of the Lightweight Maintenance Enclosure concept. More modern ones are quite different, with more framing and semi-rigid panels instead of canvas.

I think this design is substantially what was used by US forces during WWII. My guess is that all armies had something like this, if they expected to do maintenance and repair in the field.

Military-Tent-Frame-Type-Maintanace.jpg?

This tent is 24' x 32' x 14' high at peak. A larger unit could set up several, and/or two in a row for longer work.

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12 hours ago, jwilly said:

Here's a more modern one:

s-l500.jpg

Looking at modern support systems I wonder how sustainable all the extra logistical bloat would be in a first tier be first tier power war. It's easy to supple a couple armored divisions that way. But in WWII we had how many divisions total? 70? 100?

Suddenly some rope and canvas starts looking like a smart move.

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On 1/18/2019 at 5:41 PM, Kilemall said:

Just so we are clear, how close to towns are you proposing a VMS can be set?

300-500m minimum. Paired with the MS infantry would just truck in or hitch a ride with the spawning vehicles, so a higher minimum distance would work.

Edited by knucks

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Would be very against this. There should be no mobile spawning within the effective engagement range of tanks. Either one of two things are going to happen with such a short distance: massive armor camp fest driving straight into an AB without all the effort and planning a tank column takes, or you will have noobs burn through the entire armor pool in a matter of minutes.

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3 hours ago, knucks said:

300-500m minimum.

You want to have a mobile tank spawn that can be put 300m away from an enemy building?
That will not end well on either side.

If there was a movable armor spawn, i dont imagine it would be any closer than an FB is.
And personally, i would rather do it as a replacement to the present static FB system

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500m it is then. Do you want people being trucked into battle like old days or do you prefer walking, solo?

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5 hours ago, knucks said:

300-500m minimum. Paired with the MS infantry would just truck in or hitch a ride with the spawning vehicles, so a higher minimum distance would work.

Ok, my answer is 2km.

Has to be maneuver, including enough to move up to ambush and not be heard, and enough room to allow flank ambush, and not easy camping of an entire vehicle list with morons that will roll every single tank out into a camp.

 

This is why we can't let instakiddie action call the shots.

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Ideally IMO, CRS would have code that would spawn a unit at/near the spawn-location of the last-spawned unit on the same mission, if all other conditions are met; otherwise at a randomly chosen locationj meeting all other conditions. The other conditions would be (1) at the closest location to the mission target (2) that is forward of the enemy and (3) results in the spawned unit at the moment of spawning having no enemy ground or naval units in its interaction list.

There would be no more coded spawnpoints, and no more camping.

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2 hours ago, knucks said:

500m it is then. Do you want people being trucked into battle like old days or do you prefer walking, solo?

we trucked them from 3km away, where they and the vehicles didn't get decimated on spawn
or, if you happen to be on the low pop side of the equation, the enemies armored brigade explodes in your backyard

 

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13 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Ideally IMO, CRS would have code that would spawn a unit at/near the spawn-location of the last-spawned unit on the same mission, if all other conditions are met; otherwise at a randomly chosen locationj meeting all other conditions. The other conditions would be (1) at the closest location to the mission target (2) that is forward of the enemy and (3) results in the spawned unit at the moment of spawning having no enemy ground or naval units in its interaction list.

There would be no more coded spawnpoints, and no more camping.

What I had in mind was formation spawning- each brigade would have a specific spawning area defined by players, kind of like a box around some control/rally point, maybe even within a drawn box like the formations in Total War.  Within that box they are randomly spawned, so not autocamped, although an open plain probably could be.

 

Have to have a mechanism for moving the formation spawning area out of an overrun, among other play/programming challenges.

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9 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

we trucked them from 3km away, where they and the vehicles didn't get decimated on spawn
or, if you happen to be on the low pop side of the equation, the enemies armored brigade explodes in your backyard

There's reasonable expectation that you defend your spawn, and if it gets "camped" then that's on your side, same with MS.
 500m away from spawn, so away from FB, no more backspawning and more front line gameplay.

Edited by knucks

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9 minutes ago, knucks said:

There's reasonable expectation that you defend your spawn, and if it gets "camped" then that's on your side, same with MS.
 500m away from spawn, so away from FB, no more backspawning and more front line gameplay.

This response would seem to indicate you are not grasping our problem with your 500m to town vehicle spawning.

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I already explained, 500m FROM FB, not to town. That's like 700m from the target, and promotes combined arms gameplay and player-build fobs. I have no idea what your counter argument is except for spawn camping which happens regardless if you don't defend your spawn points.

Edited by knucks

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15 minutes ago, knucks said:

I already explained, 500m FROM FB, not to town. That's like 700m from the target, and promotes combined arms gameplay and player-build fobs. I have no idea what your counter argument is except for spawn camping which happens regardless if you don't defend your spawn points.

I asked a VERY specific question, so let's try again-  how many meters from the enemy town would you allow the VMS to be?  Or come to think of it, how close could a VMS be to an enemy FB?

 

It's assumed that the VMS would be away from the friendly FB, that is rather the point of the thing.

Edited by Kilemall

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