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Before I came to this game, nearly 100% of my time was playing medic in BHD - and it was fun.

We should consider how a medic could be added to this game.

Seen a few good proposals like medic cuts the RDP time of your unit in half if would have been KIA.

Gives an automatic RTB if near when you despawn (i.e no MIA).

 

And, medics would act like having a lot more players in game, if they did bring players back into the game world.

So, you die;  you are dead, supply is gone, killer gets credit - medic revives you..... that simulates another soldier that was in the attack force, but now you are closer to the objective.

We totally should consider how to bring medics into this game imo.

And by the way, the ems in my named stood for emergency medical services..... so there ARE players that like medic role.

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I agree that at some point medics should be added, to facilitate attracting Carers, a new class of customers...though of course it makes sense to be more successful at attracting Fighters first.

But, for me anyway any talk of reviving dead people is a non-starter. If "another soldier that was in the attack force" is to spawn in place of a dead man, better to have a virtual spawn point that the mission commander can place anywhere with a tactical supply line. It's not a Carer's sensible function in a realism-marketed game to be a spawn point.

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For some authentic vehicles

FRANCE: SOMUA MCL5
img00610.jpg

GERMANY: SDKFZ 9 (Axis also used damaged or converted PZIII's)
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-235-0996-02A,_Rus

BRITAIN: (used several things based off their tanks but here is one based off the Grant, they also used A15s etc)
The_Campaign_in_Italy_1945_NA22176.jpg

 

US: M31 recovery Vehicle (based off the M3)
SBrezinski_M31ARV_pic06.jpg

Question is, if the functionality is there, how many people would actually run out to recover a tank that could be RTB if it was close enough?
If it is KIA, i think the most you could expect in game is maybe a small reduction on the replacement ticket time for recovery of the parts etc.
But again, how many would do it really?
Is it enough to warrant creating entirely new single purpose vehicles? And how many would patiently wait in their disabled unit for a recovery?
That would be the tricky question

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Slap some 40 inch mudders and a lift kit on a Laffly :) hehehe
tt_25_lafflys45t30ttrailer.jpg

Its a Laffly 45T

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10 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

For some authentic vehicles

FRANCE: SOMUA MCL5
img00610.jpg

GERMANY: SDKFZ 9 (Axis also used damaged or converted PZIII's)
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-235-0996-02A,_Rus

BRITAIN: (used several things based off their tanks but here is one based off the Grant, they also used A15s etc)
The_Campaign_in_Italy_1945_NA22176.jpg

 

US: M31 recovery Vehicle (based off the M3)
SBrezinski_M31ARV_pic06.jpg

Question is, if the functionality is there, how many people would actually run out to recover a tank that could be RTB if it was close enough?
If it is KIA, i think the most you could expect in game is maybe a small reduction on the replacement ticket time for recovery of the parts etc.
But again, how many would do it really?
Is it enough to warrant creating entirely new single purpose vehicles? And how many would patiently wait in their disabled unit for a recovery?
That would be the tricky question

1. Towing a disabled vehicle doesn't require a lifting boom. Booms/cranes had two roles: recovering relatively light vehicles/guns from ravines, bomb craters and the like; and (2) changing tank engines and transmissions. The latter was a frequent task...engines would have oil leaks and be run dry, or just wear out or break due to sub-optimal manufacturing practices and too many miles of driving, or transmissions would be trashed by bad shifting; and of course there was battle damage.

2. As noted before, generally a tow vehicle if tracked needed to be of the same size-class and horsepower as the damaged tank to be able to pull it offroad. So, for instance, an H39 or R35 recovery tank wouldn't be able to tow an S or B tank.

Tiger units often used turretless Tigers for recovery. AFAIK, the 1940 British had no recovery capability for Matilda IIs offroad. The 1940 French had very little recovery capability for B tanks because the Laffly heavy trucks capable of that task existed only in small numbers and mostly were in the wrong places. The French were developing a very heavy capability towing truck able to tow a locked-track B tank on any ground, but it wasn't ready for production in time.

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28 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Tiger units often used turretless Tigers for recovery.

Axis were also known to chain up 4 Sdkfz 9's to one to drag it someplace.
Guess given enough need, someone will figure something out.
Someplace i had run across a picture of something like 8 Sdkfz7's yanking a tiger down the road, guess they wanted it bad, that's a lot of 7's

The pictures just happened to have booms on all the dedicated recovery vehicles
 

 

42 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Laffly heavy trucks capable of that task existed only in small numbers and mostly were in the wrong places.

Hehehe, you just described nearly the entire french deployment at the time :)
 

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Brits had the Scammel Pioneer, heavy recovery, and tank transporter models with the BEF.

Edited by goreblimey

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3 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

Brits had the Scammel Pioneer, heavy recovery, and tank transporter models with the BEF.

Heh that is pretty cool, there is some modern stuff it reminds me of
The_British_Army_in_North_Africa_1942_E1

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3 hours ago, delems said:

Before I came to this game, nearly 100% of my time was playing medic in BHD - and it was fun.

We should consider how a medic could be added to this game.

Seen a few good proposals like medic cuts the RDP time of your unit in half if would have been KIA.

Gives an automatic RTB if near when you despawn (i.e no MIA).

 

And, medics would act like having a lot more players in game, if they did bring players back into the game world.

So, you die;  you are dead, supply is gone, killer gets credit - medic revives you..... that simulates another soldier that was in the attack force, but now you are closer to the objective.

We totally should consider how to bring medics into this game imo.

And by the way, the ems in my named stood for emergency medical services..... so there ARE players that like medic role.

Wow.,

 

Going from Jesus Warping Brigade System, and just doing Jesus raising the dead.

 

What's next, Miracle of the Tiger Supply?

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The contact patch of Scammel Pioneer tires offroad was, I think, about 12 inches wide and 12 inches long, so its total contact area was about 864 square inches. It weighted about 8.5 tons or 17000 pounds, so its average ground pressure approached 20 psi. The dedicated trailer had dual wheels on each end of each axle, I think. If we assume similar tire size, that's about 1700 square inches of contact area. If the trailer weighs 5 tons, and has a 25 ton tank loaded, the trailer ground pressure was about 35 psi.

That was fine offroad on the gravel/clay of Libya, but European offroad terrain began to flow at around 10 to 15 psi, depending on moisture content. That number can be significantly lower during rainy weather or in the snowmelt phase of Spring. 

My understanding from the numbers is that the Scammel system was fine in Europe as an on-road tank transporter, but had limited utility for off-road recovery in other than eompletely dry weather because it would bog down once loaded.

I've read that a set of attachable tracks could be fitted onto the tractor's driven wheels to increase flotation on soft ground. This however would be of limited help when the trailer is in use with its winch for tank recovery, because the trailer tires once loaded would sink in much more than those of the tractor.

Edited by jwilly

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The one I pictured was the trailering set up, just thought it was kind of cool.
But I suppose depending on what kind of tackle etc they had, the recovery model might be used to drag the tank out?
Of course if the tank is mired down in the middle of 500 acres of mush, you are probably screwed a bit no matter the recovery vehicle.
Even with a Hercules sometimes you have to take a few helpers and some blocks and cables etc and drag it out enough where you can get to it

 

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Tbh, while I agree that game loops like tank repair and recovery should be added, at this point it would be a luxury feature at best.

 

Much in the same way that back line resupply could be sapping a side’s precious frontline fighting strength, so too could these recovery vehicles.

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11 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Wow.,

 

Going from Jesus Warping Brigade System, and just doing Jesus raising the dead.

 

What's next, Miracle of the Tiger Supply?

I know right. Everyone knows the Germans never had Tigers. They were fictional propaganda designed to scare the Allies and never actually made it off the drawing board. All that footage you see of them was actually made with miniatures on a sound stage in Munich. 

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9 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

The one I pictured was the trailering set up, just thought it was kind of cool.
But I suppose depending on what kind of tackle etc they had, the recovery model might be used to drag the tank out?
Of course if the tank is mired down in the middle of 500 acres of mush, you are probably screwed a bit no matter the recovery vehicle.
Even with a Hercules sometimes you have to take a few helpers and some blocks and cables etc and drag it out enough where you can get to it

 

Actually it was the trailer version that was used for recovery. The front of the trailer had a powerful winch that dragged the tank up the ramp onto the trailer. So, bogging of the trailer was a recovery issue if you were off-road and it had rained in recent history.

The box version with no trailer was the heavy gun tractor.

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1 hour ago, minky said:

I know right. Everyone knows the Germans never had Tigers. They were fictional propaganda designed to scare the Allies and never actually made it off the drawing board. All that footage you see of them was actually made with miniatures on a sound stage in Munich. 

same stage was packed up and later used in the US for the moon landing iirc.

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7 hours ago, minky said:

I know right. Everyone knows the Germans never had Tigers. They were fictional propaganda designed to scare the Allies and never actually made it off the drawing board. All that footage you see of them was actually made with miniatures on a sound stage in Munich. 

Finally some "truth" from you.

;) ahahahaha

S!

 

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8 hours ago, jwilly said:

The box version with no trailer was the heavy gun tractor.

It has a decent looking crane/winch on the back though.
Bet i could yank some things with that, and some cables and snatch blocks.
There are some pictures of that same truck setup picking up UC's, and yanking a tetrarch up a river bank, if i can go find them again

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as one of the few tankers in the forums, we never wanted repair beyond tracks and maybe crew replacement.

even then, we never cared enough to argue for it.

 

our #1 concern has always been the RPATS ramboing around willy-nilly

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7 minutes ago, major0noob said:

as one of the few tankers in the forums, we never wanted repair beyond tracks and maybe crew replacement.

even then, we never cared enough to argue for it.

 

our #1 concern has always been the RPATS ramboing around willy-nilly

fwiw - repair has been something argued for since 2001.

@Kilemall"doesn't buy the argument" that bush tunnels are 'all that big a deal' anymore because PPO barbwire etc allows you to force out sappers. i think that's pretty funny as his insinuation essentially means you need a team of people to stop one infantry. how ba$$akwards is that?

1) get a tank, drive it near a fight

2) get a team of engineers and other EI to setup PPOs and a ZOC

3) shoot MGs and main gun a lot to attract the solo rambo sappers/rpats

4) kill the solo/rambo sappers/rpats

 

its just wrong. infantry should work as a team to stop unprotected tanks - it shouldn't require a team of people to stop solo infantry. its totally backwards.

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

fwiw - repair has been something argued for since 2001.

@Kilemall"doesn't buy the argument" that bush tunnels are 'all that big a deal' anymore because PPO barbwire etc allows you to force out sappers. i think that's pretty funny as his insinuation essentially means you need a team of people to stop one infantry. how ba$$akwards is that?

1) get a tank, drive it near a fight

2) get a team of engineers and other EI to setup PPOs and a ZOC

3) shoot MGs and main gun a lot to attract the solo rambo sappers/rpats

4) kill the solo/rambo sappers/rpats

 

its just wrong. infantry should work as a team to stop unprotected tanks - it shouldn't require a team of people to stop solo infantry. its totally backwards.

In the past I only tanked occasionally but in the last 2 campaigns I’ve done quite a bit more and I am starting see the issue of the “sapper”. It’s generally not ATGs theating Allied armour (speaking from my experience) but the lone sapper. 

In the past I’ve argued that the sapper is there to simulate the threat of infantry in built up areas but I’m no longer sure that the current sapper is the right approach. More often than not it’s sappers out hunting tanks in the outskirts of a town than in one. More to the point, as @madrebelpointed out, it should be groups of infantry working to disable a tank, not single sappers hunting tanks through the bushes (which need to restrict movement as well). 

Then there is also the issue of historical weapons in the tiers. Our HEAT satchels don’t do a good job of simulating the real AT weapons involved. I’m not an expert in this area yet but I believe an argument could be made to employ AT grenades and AT mines as the real life replacement for our one satchel does all HEAT charge.

discuss S! 

Note: Will likely make a separate thread on this later. 

Edited by raptor34

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ramboing is universally and unapologetically stamped out even at the expense of gameplay. the RPATS have always been an exeption...

"use teamwork against 1 guy"

"make a ZoC soo strong 1 guy can't get through"

"get a team of inf covering vs 1 guy"

 

used them all and still failed; cause we didn't use them all at the same time, they go so far as troll veh spawns yet they get the most pathetic nerf in the games history. 5 per flag killed more than tigers and S76's, now there's 10.

there's nothing to discuss, RPATS killed the tank game. the only argument is was it inf-FRU + RPATS, but it's still happening even after.

 

if they were historically accurate they'd have no ammo, no sidearm, require their own special ammo bearer, and leave a smoke trail that gave away their position from 1km. these factors they were forced to operate with is why they weren't nearly as effective historically as they are in game, and why effective operators were highly decorated.

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The big problem with tanking is that tanks need to be supported by infantry, and in this game, they aren't.

The other night, I was in Arras (CSR link) and there were two enemy tanks (a IIIH and IIIB) that were camping the East AB from good hull-down positions on higher ground. Neither our armour or ATGs in town were able to fire on them effectively - everyone knew they were there, and they were engaged by many allied tankers and gunners, but to no effect as they weren't penetrating. Between the two of them, they killed 3 H39s, 5 S35s, 3 47mm ATGs and a Char while suppressing infantry movement in the AB.

I was able to push out an ATG out of town from a depot, work my way around the ant trail of incoming ei to flank the enemy armour, and destroy the two camping ETs before they knew I was there. It took 20+ minutes to do, but it saved our AB for the time being, and it was the only thing we could do as by that time as our armour couldn't leave town without getting destroyed quickly, and nobody could engage them from in town. Yes, armour can't cap CPs, but they can dramatically cripple enemy operations if they have a good position. There *must* be some way for their opponents to respond when that happens.

They had good positions, and controlled the town - the only way they could be defeated was for a lone wolf to get out there and use the magic bush tunnels. And really - had there been any infantry watching the tanker's backs, I probably would have been found out. The 47mm is not sneaky.

On the flip side, I know the frustration from a tanker's position. I've rolled to within 1.5km of a town we were attacking in a tank, popped my commander out to scout ahead for a moment, and promptly gotten sapped by a well prepared lone wolf. Many, many times. It's frustrating to drive for 15 minutes  or more sometimes to get sapped in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure many players have logged after sorties like that.

If there was any concept of a 'frontline' in this game with prepared, manned positions, neither of these situations would happen. At least in-game, an ATG is big, slow, highly visible when moving, and tough to hide compared to a sapper or RPAT.

I think the two infantry AT units play an important role when tanks venture into town,  but I wonder if it's viable (if ahistorical) to disable them if they leave a certain radius from a spawn point - either a CP or a FRU. This would restrict their use to in town, and areas where there is an established infantry presence. It gives tankers reason to be cautious when venturing into town, but more safety if they hang back a reasonable distance. It would redefine a ZoC to be an area free of enemy spawns rather than an area free of enemy (from a tanker's perspective) - they only have ATGs to worry about, not bush-tunnelling infantry.

 

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5 minutes ago, caydel said:

There *must* be some way for their opponents to respond when that happens.

What stopped others from doing what you effectively did?

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8 minutes ago, caydel said:

 There *must* be some way for their opponents to respond when that happens

 

drive tanks from the next town back, drop bombs on them, smoke them with mortar shells, or - just give up the town.

why is solo rambo infantry ALWAYS the go to answer? zero historical justification of any kind for infantry literally spotting and stalking tanks in open country. ZERO. infantry almost always waited in ambush positions.

that said, tanks having only the AB as spawn points drastically limits they game viable response. you either spawn in before tanks get into position or you're at their mercy. having some sort of 'near-line' FB like spawn point, being able to spawn from depots, or some other methd would be preferred versus only being able to spawn from the AB.

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20 minutes ago, caydel said:

The big problem with tanking is that tanks need to be supported by infantry, and in this game, they aren't.

The other night, I was in Arras (CSR link) and there were two enemy tanks (a IIIH and IIIB) that were camping the East AB from good hull-down positions on higher ground. Neither our armour or ATGs in town were able to fire on them effectively - everyone knew they were there, and they were engaged by many allied tankers and gunners, but to no effect as they weren't penetrating. Between the two of them, they killed 3 H39s, 5 S35s, 3 47mm ATGs and a Char while suppressing infantry movement in the AB.

I was able to push out an ATG out of town from a depot, work my way around the ant trail of incoming ei to flank the enemy armour, and destroy the two camping ETs before they knew I was there. It took 20+ minutes to do, but it saved our AB for the time being, and it was the only thing we could do as by that time as our armour couldn't leave town without getting destroyed quickly, and nobody could engage them from in town. Yes, armour can't cap CPs, but they can dramatically cripple enemy operations if they have a good position. There *must* be some way for their opponents to respond when that happens.

They had good positions, and controlled the town - the only way they could be defeated was for a lone wolf to get out there and use the magic bush tunnels. And really - had there been any infantry watching the tanker's backs, I probably would have been found out. The 47mm is not sneaky.

On the flip side, I know the frustration from a tanker's position. I've rolled to within 1.5km of a town we were attacking in a tank, popped my commander out to scout ahead for a moment, and promptly gotten sapped by a well prepared lone wolf. Many, many times. It's frustrating to drive for 15 minutes  or more sometimes to get sapped in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure many players have logged after sorties like that.

If there was any concept of a 'frontline' in this game with prepared, manned positions, neither of these situations would happen. At least in-game, an ATG is big, slow, highly visible when moving, and tough to hide compared to a sapper or RPAT.

I think the two infantry AT units play an important role when tanks venture into town,  but I wonder if it's viable (if ahistorical) to disable them if they leave a certain radius from a spawn point - either a CP or a FRU. This would restrict their use to in town, and areas where there is an established infantry presence. It gives tankers reason to be cautious when venturing into town, but more safety if they hang back a reasonable distance. It would redefine a ZoC to be an area free of enemy spawns rather than an area free of enemy (from a tanker's perspective) - they only have ATGs to worry about, not bush-tunnelling infantry.

Good post.  

 

I like your solution.  Not sure if it's doable (I'd lean towards not), but I like it.  

 

You know how if you spawn into a depot that gets captured, you will not be able to fire your weapon while still inside the depot?  That exact same function outside of a certain radius from town would be perfect.  

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