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281 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, jwilly said:

And of course, the most non-historical aspect is that there were no weapons like "HEAT sapper charges" in the 1940 French army or the 1940-45 British army, and nothing nearly as effective as the currently modeled weapon in the German army until T2.5.

CRS has told us innumerable times that "sapper charges are simplified representations of things that infantry could do to tanks", like smearing mud on vision blocks, or wedging logs into running gear, or dumping five gallons of gas over the engine and igniting it. OK, maybe that's believable at times, but now we're back to the sappers being way too effective and way too fast...because chasing a moving tank across a field to stick a large log in its running gear just isn't realistic.

Good things then. And that return us to the false fact that tanks can go countryside without any infantry support. That kind of excursion never happened cause they were simply too easy to trap, read sap.

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7 hours ago, major0noob said:

do you seriously think axis tankers are happy with the 14 matties and no tanks in inf flags?

 

I think that anytime the game implements a change, some will like it right away, some will hate it right away.  Of those who like it right away, some will eventually grow to not like it very much, and of those who hate it right away, some will grow to like it, or at least understand/tolerate it, adjust to it and drive on.

 

I think there are some on the axis side who argued against having to face Allied tanks in every town they attacked, who perhaps did not realize that by arguing it wasn't historically accurate, and having the solution be a better approximation of historical accuracy, that there would be a potential downside to it, i.e. the GHC would lump all of their panzer brigades together, as opposed to attaching them in towns where Infantry brigades are also stationed.  My point being it seems your anger is directed at the wrong folks.  CRS didn't say armored brigades couldn't be stacked with Infantry brigades.  Instead they said players/HCs could place them.  Clearly you (and others) are not fans of where the HC placed the armored brigades.  I understand and appreciate your concerns, as a tanker.  

 

To be clear, my memory of the numbers of tanks involved in the actual Battle of France tells me that 14 matties in a brigade might be too high, although truth be told I lost my library in the divorce some 9 years ago, and haven't reconstituted it as yet.  I'm sure some community member who didn't lose their library will be happy to explain why there are too many, or too few, or just the right amount of Matties.  My bet is it's too high initially, but about right as time passes within a campaign.

 

S!

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1 hour ago, jwilly said:

And of course, the most non-historical aspect is that there were no weapons like "HEAT sapper charges" in the 1940 French army or the 1940-45 British army, and nothing nearly as effective as the currently modeled weapon in the German army until T2.5.

CRS has told us innumerable times that "sapper charges are simplified representations of things that infantry could do to tanks", like smearing mud on vision blocks, or wedging logs into running gear, or dumping five gallons of gas over the engine and igniting it. OK, maybe that's believable at times, but now we're back to the sappers being way too effective and way too fast...because chasing a moving tank across a field to stick a large log in its running gear just isn't realistic.

I would dispute that, type 73 and 74 anti tank Grenades 1940/1 onwards may not be HEAT but there intended use is as in game.  Maybe not roaming the countryside spawning from special ppo, but small man portable charges intended to disable armour they sure were. May not have been desperate often enough to have seen widespread use, but certainly the idea was there as was the weapon. Type 73 capable of 50mm penetration, more than sufficient , thermos bomb - anyone for a cup of tea.

 

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It's just an HE charge. Its explosion against the outside of a two inch armor steel surface could not affect matters inside that armor steel unless that steel was sufficiently brittle to be shattered. Most armor steel isn't brittle for the simple reason that brittle steel readily shatters when hit by AP projectiles.

Scotsman recently commented on 1940 direct hit aerial bomb kills of tanks. Without looking up his precise statement, I believe he said that very few kills occurred, if any. If aerial bombs with a hundred pounds or more of HE filler generally didn't break tank armor when detonating against it, how often would that occur with 3.5 pounds of similar HE?

1930s tanks sometimes didn't have blast shields/fire deflectors between the engine deck ventilation grates and the engine compartment contents. HE devices such as the #73 and 74, the German 7-grenade-head blast device, and the French explosive-block-with-a-throwing-handle device could cause severe engine damage to such tanks, including possibly starting a fuel fire. But, tank designers had mostly eliminated that weakness by 1940. 

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1. The majority of the infantry brigade Matildas are CS and pose exactly zero threat to the Axis tanks.

2. The profligacy of Flak 36 in the infantry brigades is ahistoric but necessary - a concession to gameplay - would you rather not have them?

3. The cost of the Flak 36 + requisite Sdkfz 7 to pull them makes the German brigades rather expensive (and deadly effective!). The only way to balance that is by putting corresponding heavy gear in the Allied brigades (and they are still falling short a few dollars). As it happened, the French doctrine of doling out infantry tanks in penny  packets and British doctrine to attach infantry tanks to their infantry brigades solves that dilemma. Even so, the counterweight is half toothless (Matilda CS) and slowpoke nonlethal (R35), which leaves the German brigades still overpowered in killing capacity.

4. The German brigades in the legacy TOE (spawnlist) were considerably overstrength, to the tune of up to 1.4:1 in cost and killing capacity versus their Allied counterparts. This imbalance HAD to be adressed; an imbalance that the playerbase has been inured to and accepted as norm throughout the years. This massive legacy disparity should come as no surprise to anyone, certainly not for the predominantly Allied players, and have likely been a major factor in the steady decline of the Allied playerbase over the years. We are now righting this old wrong, and I don't expect it to come about without some grief.

And yes, there will likely be some redistribution of kit in the next campaign, both in terms of type and quantity as well as in tier introduction.

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

It's just an HE charge. Its explosion against the outside of a two inch armor steel surface could not affect matters inside that armor steel unless that steel was sufficiently brittle to be shattered. Most armor steel isn't brittle for the simple reason that brittle steel readily shatters when hit by AP projectiles.

Scotsman recently commented on 1940 direct hit aerial bomb kills of tanks. Without looking up his precise statement, I believe he said that very few kills occurred, if any. If aerial bombs with a hundred pounds or more of HE filler generally didn't break tank armor when detonating against it, how often would that occur with 3.5 pounds of similar HE?

1930s tanks sometimes didn't have blast shields/fire deflectors between the engine deck ventilation grates and the engine compartment contents. HE devices such as the #73 and 74, the German 7-grenade-head blast device, and the French explosive-block-with-a-throwing-handle device could cause severe engine damage to such tanks, including possibly starting a fuel fire. But, tank designers had mostly eliminated that weakness by 1940. 

 

Pretty easy to find occasions where sticky bombs , killed or disabled tanks. 

As I said the intent was there, i see nothing wrong with modelling the ability in game. 

I’m not saying it was prevalent, but your dismissal of it is wrong. 

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3 hours ago, Bmbm said:

1. The majority of the infantry brigade Matildas are CS and pose exactly zero threat to the Axis tanks.

2. The profligacy of Flak 36 in the infantry brigades is ahistoric but necessary - a concession to gameplay - would you rather not have them?

3. The cost of the Flak 36 + requisite Sdkfz 7 to pull them makes the German brigades rather expensive (and deadly effective!). The only way to balance that is by putting corresponding heavy gear in the Allied brigades (and they are still falling short a few dollars). As it happened, the French doctrine of doling out infantry tanks in penny  packets and British doctrine to attach infantry tanks to their infantry brigades solves that dilemma. Even so, the counterweight is half toothless (Matilda CS) and slowpoke nonlethal (R35), which leaves the German brigades still overpowered in killing capacity.

4. The German brigades in the legacy TOE (spawnlist) were considerably overstrength, to the tune of up to 1.4:1 in cost and killing capacity versus their Allied counterparts. This imbalance HAD to be adressed; an imbalance that the playerbase has been inured to and accepted as norm throughout the years. This massive legacy disparity should come as no surprise to anyone, certainly not for the predominantly Allied players, and have likely been a major factor in the steady decline of the Allied playerbase over the years. We are now righting this old wrong, and I don't expect it to come about without some grief.

And yes, there will likely be some redistribution of kit in the next campaign, both in terms of type and quantity as well as in tier introduction.

I can certainly believe that the Axis brigades' infantry strength was overmatched- in the old RDP system they didn't even valuate the infantry and Doc was tremendously surprised when I pointed out things like the LMG ROF literally meant more firepower which of course was the RL intent.

But concluding the Allied brigades were always underpowered is where I think the historical/Lancastrian analysis falls down. 

The mighty 88 certainly HAS been neutered from it's original 2003 power, and largely through no modeling or item on the spawnlist but the map mark, bringing every plane from miles around to shred it.  The gun shield gives a shot at surviving AA and cheap MG fire frontally, but does not make up for it's game vulnerability.  That's an enviornmental factor near as I can tell not valuated in this system.

 

The Axis tank park does not start with integral assault capabilities- theoretically the StuG B is that assault and a tough front, but has the weakness of a TD with treads eliminating it's gun and no integral MG.  The IIIF is the best overall inf support tank starting out with it's John Wayne MG clips, but that 37mm against S35s, Chars and Matties is sadness.  The IVD then shines as the best due to the turret and HEAT round but isn't armored like the good Allied tanks and so is used early, often, and dies fast.

And of course the game is set up to require spawn castle capture, where infantry assault over open ground is a premium capability required for offense and defense.  No artillery to achieve this beyond light mortars, so tanks are IT.

 

It's not the equipment capability and valuation alone, it's the environment and the opposition they are paired against.

 

This is where arguing the CS Matty is neutered simply because it does not have integral AT capability is, well, silly.

if the brigade opposition it will mostly face is Axis Inf with StugB, then the CS Matty merely needs to track the IIIB long enough for the sappers to get to them, 88s in an invested town with equal or better Allied numbers are practically unusable, and so the CS can stay on station and ensure infantry dominance.  Which is fine, if the Axis had tools to deal with the CS or the IIIB was similarly capable- but it's not.

 

I don't know that I buy the moaning about Shermans, they seem pretty easy to kill as long as they aren't in slope advantage positions, but certainly again the IVG/IIIG mix continues the inf assault tank superiority theme, which in line em up Lancastrian equations is not a big deal, but the spawn castle battleground makes Shermans and Churchills premium.

 

Now there was a tacit balancing between, where Allies crutched on those tanks to make up the infantry, and FRU infantry assaults brought Axis strengths to the fore.  On attack and defense, Allies led with tanks and Axis with infantry, and would finish with the opposite arm when their main strength had won the position.

Apparently it was not recognized as a reality, the FMS was introduced and not surprisingly it favored the Allied tank park since the Axis again does not start with an integral armor assault capability worthy of the name in classic TOEs.

I think the Axis tank park was beefed up to try and put Axis tanks back in the game, while little attention was paid to infantry firepower.  So that's where you could find a total firepower problem by now.

But the 88 certainly was not part of it, even if there was a latent capability.

 

Not to get into the whole matrix of spawnlist building, but other environmental factors such as scaling to differing TZs where premium heavy units and/or how many numerous units can be simulspawned (so a proper firepower analysis has to deal with how many units can be spawned in, maneuvered to effective range and start applying that firepower and as importantly survive/avoid the enemies' firepower to achieve results).  We of course are seeing this with Axis manpower and more importantly apparently lack of vets- Pop Neutrality does not fix skill discrepancies and should not, the better team should win.

But the balance of play and interests even if tacitly arrived at by benign neglect or changing until the whining is just a dull roar is apparently not understood, and I continue to be shocked.

 

So again, a masterful work that's been done, but it's asking the wrong questions and not surprisingly getting the wrong answers.

Edited by Kilemall
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11 minutes ago, Bmbm said:

I invite you to try and come up with a balanced spawnlist. 

Never thought you'd ask.

 

Got a spreadsheet to work from?  All tiers?

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14 hours ago, matamor said:

Good things then. And that return us to the false fact that tanks can go countryside without any infantry support. That kind of excursion never happened cause they were simply too easy to trap, read sap.

happened all the time. read the battle of kursk, tanks/avfs advanced without infantry protection multiple times leading to some significant redesign of various german AFVs to allow for more anti infantry protection. show me just one historical AAR where infantry spot and stalked tanks. just one.

are you honestly suggesting AFVs never once moved without having infantry within a few feet of them?

ffs during the BoF the armored units had to stop and wait for their supporting units to catch up as they'd broken through the lines too /quicklydeeply. did magical sappers spot and stalk them?

 

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

extra matties to make up for halftracks... jesus

Pray tell what you would put in to balance the 88 and the required prime movers. 

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9 hours ago, Bmbm said:

1. The majority of the infantry brigade Matildas are CS and pose exactly zero threat to the Axis tanks.

2. The profligacy of Flak 36 in the infantry brigades is ahistoric but necessary - a concession to gameplay - would you rather not have them?

3. The cost of the Flak 36 + requisite Sdkfz 7 to pull them makes the German brigades rather expensive (and deadly effective!). The only way to balance that is by putting corresponding heavy gear in the Allied brigades (and they are still falling short a few dollars). As it happened, the French doctrine of doling out infantry tanks in penny  packets and British doctrine to attach infantry tanks to their infantry brigades solves that dilemma. Even so, the counterweight is half toothless (Matilda CS) and slowpoke nonlethal (R35), which leaves the German brigades still overpowered in killing capacity.

4. The German brigades in the legacy TOE (spawnlist) were considerably overstrength, to the tune of up to 1.4:1 in cost and killing capacity versus their Allied counterparts. This imbalance HAD to be adressed; an imbalance that the playerbase has been inured to and accepted as norm throughout the years. This massive legacy disparity should come as no surprise to anyone, certainly not for the predominantly Allied players, and have likely been a major factor in the steady decline of the Allied playerbase over the years. We are now righting this old wrong, and I don't expect it to come about without some grief.

And yes, there will likely be some redistribution of kit in the next campaign, both in terms of type and quantity as well as in tier introduction.

Why on earth are you using real-world dollar cost in order to value objects in a video game?

 

The flak 36 is a nearly-immobile glass cannon with an extremely high skill floor to use effectively; it's less effective than a pak 38 in most ingame situations. CS matildas have absolutely massive defensive power even if they can't harm other armor; they're nearly invulnerable mobile bunkers that can be spawned at the first sight of trouble and driven straight to the enemy FMS.

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1 minute ago, david06 said:

Why on earth are you using real-world dollar cost in order to value objects in a video game?

 

The flak 36 is a nearly-immobile glass cannon with an extremely high skill floor to use effectively; it's less effective than a pak 38 in most ingame situations. CS matildas have absolutely massive defensive power even if they can't harm other armor; they're nearly invulnerable mobile bunkers that can be spawned at the first sight of trouble and driven straight to the enemy FMS.

they're not, well, not exactly. its a weight based 'cost' with all 'sides' having equal budget of sorts. also, real world costs aren't a 'bad' metric per se. where you source your budget really doesn't matter as long as in the end its balanced. real world, fake world, end of the day its just a budget.

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1 minute ago, Bmbm said:

Pray tell what you would put in to balance the 88 and the required prime movers. 

A prime mover in this game has almost zero value. They're slow, noisy, unarmed and unarmored. It's a crude assortment of data and pixels, not a real vehicle. There's nothing that needs to be balanced.

 

You could put 200 prime movers in a brigade and it wouldn't imbalance things, because they have almost no value. 

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10 hours ago, Bmbm said:

1. The majority of the infantry brigade Matildas are CS and pose exactly zero threat to the Axis tanks.

2. The profligacy of Flak 36 in the infantry brigades is ahistoric but necessary - a concession to gameplay - would you rather not have them?

3. The cost of the Flak 36 + requisite Sdkfz 7 to pull them makes the German brigades rather expensive (and deadly effective!). The only way to balance that is by putting corresponding heavy gear in the Allied brigades (and they are still falling short a few dollars). As it happened, the French doctrine of doling out infantry tanks in penny  packets and British doctrine to attach infantry tanks to their infantry brigades solves that dilemma. Even so, the counterweight is half toothless (Matilda CS) and slowpoke nonlethal (R35), which leaves the German brigades still overpowered in killing capacity.

4. The German brigades in the legacy TOE (spawnlist) were considerably overstrength, to the tune of up to 1.4:1 in cost and killing capacity versus their Allied counterparts. This imbalance HAD to be adressed; an imbalance that the playerbase has been inured to and accepted as norm throughout the years. This massive legacy disparity should come as no surprise to anyone, certainly not for the predominantly Allied players, and have likely been a major factor in the steady decline of the Allied playerbase over the years. We are now righting this old wrong, and I don't expect it to come about without some grief.

And yes, there will likely be some redistribution of kit in the next campaign, both in terms of type and quantity as well as in tier introduction.

I played a bit of DLC. I saw two 88s in several hours of game play in tier 0.  Of the two that I saw, the mighty h75 shredded the first in under 2 seconds. The second got shredded in 1 second but got his despawn done before my second pass. I had all the loiter time in the world with the LW high in the stratosphere above me to look for 88s.

Until the Axis planes can TnB on the deck with Allied planes the 88 will always be overvalued. 

I invite you bmbm to prove me otherwise. Take a whole campaign and do nothing but play the 88.  Show me the massive K/D numbers you rack up. It is weird that everyone that touts the 88 as a super weapon never takes me up on that. 

Edited by minky

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7 minutes ago, madrebel said:

they're not, well, not exactly. its a weight based 'cost' with all 'sides' having equal budget of sorts. also, real world costs aren't a 'bad' metric per se. where you source your budget really doesn't matter as long as in the end its balanced. real world, fake world, end of the day its just a budget.

It's an absolutely catastrophic metric for a FPS game. Maybe if you are playing some turn-based grand strategy game you could reference real-world dollar cost without utterly breaking things, but not here.

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9 minutes ago, minky said:

I played a bit of DLC. I saw two 88s in several hours of game play in tier 0.  Of the two that I saw, the mighty h75 shredded the first in under 2 seconds. The second got shredded in 1 second but got his despawn done before my second pass. I had all the loiter time in the world with the LW high in the stratosphere above me to look for 88s.

Until the Axis planes can TnB on the deck with Allied planes the 88 will always be overvalued. 

I invite you bmbm to prove me otherwise. Take a whole campaign and do nothing but play the 88.  Show me the massive K/D numbers you rack up. It is weird that everyone that touts the 88 as a super weapon never takes me up on that. 

The 88 shines when the axis have OP. Then you can sit 1.5k from town in relative safety, because the Allies don't have the manpower to be out 1,5k from town hunting you. 

If the Allies are even or OP, good luck with the 88. You'll get hunted down by everything that can hear you. 

For every noteworthy 88 sortie I've had, I've had about 10 that did nothing but pad other people's stats. 

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6 minutes ago, david06 said:

It's an absolutely catastrophic metric for a FPS game. Maybe if you are playing some turn-based grand strategy game you could reference real-world dollar cost without utterly breaking things, but not here.

Sorry David06. While you're inclined to have your own opinion, WWII Online relies greatly on historical feedback for decision making because that's what the community and CRS aims to have. That's what makes us different and our experience deeply genuine. 

Please remember that WWII Online is exceedingly more than just a FPS game.

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You know the funny thing about all of this is that it’s not how the game plays when you’re overpop that matters. It’s how it plays when you’re underpop. I look forward to a map where the Axis is underpop in tier 0 with the flak 36 as the bedrock of the defense.  It spawns in one place, takes two people to operate, and gets killed when you look at it funny. 

I’ll have some popcorn ready for the forums during that map. 

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3 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

The 88 shines when the axis have OP. Then you can sit 1.5k from town in relative safety, because the Allies don't have the manpower to be out 1,5k from town hunting you. 

If the Allies are even or OP, good luck with the 88. You'll get hunted down by everything that can hear you. 

For every noteworthy 88 sortie I've had, I've had about 10 that did nothing but pad other people's stats. 

Hahahaha. We were posting the same thing at the same time. 

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109s are perfectly capable of clearing the low air space, even TnB a bit. you don't need something that out turns allies to handle them down low, just be smarter.

example, someone in a 109F2 tried to out turn my spit1 earlier this camp. he literally was stick in his gut trying his damnedest to out turn me. problem for him was two fold

1) he had more speed than I did entering the fight, because of this, even if he had a hurricane i still would have out turned him

2) he didn't know how to get the most out of his plane as he was trying to turn nose high and was stalling out a lot while i was nose low. something to note, i don't 'cheat' with flaps in spits, makes me feel dirty - meaning, in this case i was purely using the natural performance of the virtual plane to my advantage and after about 4 go rounds i was on his tail and he was completely out of energy.

at any point in the first two go rounds he coulda punched out and walked away from me. he could have done a few different maneuvers to maintain his energy advantage and punished me - yet he tried to do something his plane can't do and paid the price for it.

do note, it was a really close engagement. took all i had to keep the spit from stalling out riding the razor edge of the stall the whole time - and i'm not a good spit pilot at all

10 minutes ago, david06 said:

It's an absolutely catastrophic metric for a FPS game. Maybe if you are playing some turn-based grand strategy game you could reference real-world dollar cost without utterly breaking things, but not here.

why? there is actually some really good logic to it and things that may need fudging for game sake are easy to fudge. explain how its bad.

 

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19 minutes ago, david06 said:

A prime mover in this game has almost zero value.

Except it's the only thing that can tow the 88.

 

26 minutes ago, david06 said:

The flak 36 is a nearly-immobile glass cannon with an extremely high skill floor to use effectively; it's less effective than a pak 38 in most ingame situations. 

So you're good with not having any? I can fix that.

 

7 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

For every noteworthy 88 sortie I've had, I've had about 10 that did nothing but pad other people's stats.

That's me in a nutshell hehe.

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2 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Please remember that WWII Online is exceedingly more than just a FPS game.

That’s where you get it wrong. WWIIOL at its very core is still just a tactical FPS game. When those elements are not right or you allow the strategic portion of the game to negate the tactical portion through pure magic and wizardry people say no thank you. 

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7 minutes ago, minky said:

That’s where you get it wrong. WWIIOL at its very core is still just a tactical FPS game. When those elements are not right or you allow the strategic portion of the game to negate the tactical portion through pure magic and wizardry people say no thank you. 

I said exceedingly more than, meaning WWIIOL is of course an FPS game, hell we're the first MMO FPS ever built. But it's so much more than just "that." 

That goes with the in-game experience of the strategy, the deeply rooted commitment and investment of players to the Campaign and their side affiliation, operational planning and execution, developer interactions with the player base, the community's engagement with their friends and squads, the fact that we're simulation-esque on top of all of that... that's the kinda stuff I'm talking about, that you really don't find elsewhere to this degree as we see here at WWII Online.

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