jwilly

Infantry AA LMGs

29 posts in this topic

Weather, I think, was added by old-CRS mostly to move the game along toward realism. War obviously is heavily affected by weather, often in ways that tilt combat balances.

There however has been some talk over the past years that maybe some of the impetus toward weather might have been the urgings of ground players that they have a partial respite from ground attack aircraft, which they've argued have been very lethal relative to ground players' ability to adequately defend.

Infantry gameplay of course always has been the largest segment of customer interest by a considerable margin. It may not have been a fully nuanced explanation, but old-CRS said in a design forum then that based on surveys they'd done among then-dissatisfied players, the steps they'd taken would help them retain more (primarily-ground-gameplay) customers than it would cost them (among primarily-air-gameplay customers). 

My assumption is that the recent introduction of German and British SPAA was part of CRS's consideration of all this.

I also assume because CRS hasn't modified weather yet in line with the continued requests of air players, that CRS continues to think that weather is a balance-element in the numbers of ground kills by air.

If the above is at least partly valid, perhaps the following proposal would add a useful amount of low-altitude-only ground lethality toward air...possibly creating a wider window for weather to be modified in ways that air players would like.

***

All of the primary 1940 combatant-nations fielded AA tripods and AA gunsights for their regular LMGs. The guns were normal LMGs, but the gunners had special training. Such gunners also had more limited mobility because of the weight and size of the folded tripod.

AAtripodphoto-b151.jpg

NA004150.jpg

This illustration and photo of the French system below are of the emergency rifle barrel mount and the vehicle mount--French equipment had AA mounts all over the place--but my understanding is that the tripod mount was preferred for infantry AA. As with the Brits and Germans, a quick-mount cartwheel sight system was provided.

FM24-29mountedtoaBerthierM1916rifle.jpg

GSZal10Aug08_003.jpg

The proposal would be to create a new line item in all brigade spawn lists, for "AA LMG". Mobility would be limited, equal to that of light mortars. The tripod height/gun mount would be high; the range of angle of elevation would be say 95 degrees (i.e. just above horizontal) to 180 degrees. The cartwheel sight would be fitted. The gun of course would require deployment.

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I’d rather see resource committed to developing the high alt strategic bombing game to balance out CAS kills 

 

 

Thatcwould open up a whole other playerbase and revenue stream for crs. 

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

The proposal would be to create a new line item in all brigade spawn lists

Probably could accomplish this with no new line item
Just a appropriately dimensioned mount that could be set as a PPO, with appropriate surfaces so you can crouch and deploy (you're at least less of a target)
and have a decent range of AA firing angle.

There are some things in game I can do this on now, they are just usually (always) at the wrong places.
 

1 hour ago, Silky said:

I’d rather see resource committed to developing the high alt strategic bombing game to balance out CAS kills 

Resources he is addressing would not have anything much to do with what you are talking about.
We don't all go into a room and say OK today everyone is coding!
You may as well throw me out of the room, I wont be any help, should I not do anything while others code?

1 hour ago, knucks said:

This would require you share the equipment with others though

Huh?

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A PPO approach would have less playability if the PPO builder was someone other than the LMG gunner, because each deployment location would require two man teamwork and maybe advance planning. That on average would slow down use, I'd think. In the case of this unit, I don't see that as desirable.

When two-person required weapon teamwork has been proposed by me in the past, e.g. for light mortars, medium mortars and RPATs, the idea hasn't been well received...though maybe that was the suggester, not the idea.

If the LMG gunner could quickly set his own PPO, that issue would go away.

Could this new tripod PPO be placeable wherever realistically useable, which is to say, almost anywhere? Real tripods set up fine on slopes and rooftops, in bushes, next to trees...lots of places.

Could the tripod PPO auto-disappear when the LMG gunner moved away from it? As if he took it with him, which of course he would in reality.

Also, the standard LMGs are modeled with direct fire sights. The AA LMGs must be modeled with cartwheel sights. Having auto-switching or manually switchable sights seems as if it would require coding of the unit and maybe the UI. You're the expert, but I think maybe that would offset the modeling advantage of making the tripods PPOs.

Edited by jwilly

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1 hour ago, jwilly said:

A PPO approach would have less playability if the PPO builder was someone other than the LMG gunner, because each deployment location would require two man teamwork and maybe advance planning. That on average would slow down use, I'd think. In the case of this unit, I don't see that as desirable.

When two-person required weapon teamwork has been proposed by me in the past, e.g. for light mortars, medium mortars and RPATs, the idea hasn't been well received...though maybe that was the suggester, not the idea.

If the LMG gunner could quickly set his own PPO, that issue would go away.

Could this new tripod PPO be placeable wherever realistically useable, which is to say, almost anywhere? Real tripods set up fine on slopes and rooftops, in bushes, next to trees...lots of places.

Could the tripod PPO auto-disappear when the LMG gunner moved away from it? As if he took it with him, which of course he would in reality.

Also, the standard LMGs are modeled with direct fire sights. The AA LMGs must be modeled with cartwheel sights. Having auto-switching or manually switchable sights seems as if it would require coding of the unit and maybe the UI. You're the expert, but I think maybe that would offset the modeling advantage of making the tripods PPOs.

 The answer to the airgame not harassing the ground game is allowing for the ability for both side’s fighters to be able to compete on the deck. If both sides are continually vying for that airspace then there is less loiter time for ground attack aircraft. A long time ago CRS decided to hand that air space over to one side. The implementation of the aircraft was allegedly more correct but due to the capture dynamics for the ground and where battles are fought it was just [censored] poor game design. 

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20 minutes ago, minky said:

 The answer to the airgame not harassing the ground game is allowing for the ability for both side’s fighters to be able to compete on the deck. If both sides are continually vying for that airspace then there is less loiter time for ground attack aircraft. A long time ago CRS decided to hand that air space over to one side. The implementation of the aircraft was allegedly more correct but due to the capture dynamics for the ground and where battles are fought it was just [censored] poor game design. 

Respectfully, but completely, disagree on your point here. The drive for accurate weapon system modeling is one of the main reasons for WW2OLs existence as a simulator type game. Aircraft must be modelled as historically as possible, after that, it’s all up the pilots. Same with any other weapon in game. 

I know full well that either side can maintain  air control with tactics and numbers alone. Learning how to fly each aircraft to its strengths and weakness is part of that. Supply is part of this question, as we have talked about before, but hopefully that will be addressed and is being addressed.

 

 

 

 

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Per feedback to CRS in the past...I've been told...ground players don't want to be mostly dependent on air players to defend them against air attack. 

Having both sides' fighters competing in the low altitude space might be a desirable goal, but it's not what ground players have asked for in the past.

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8 hours ago, jwilly said:

If the LMG gunner could quickly set his own PPO, that issue would go away.

Myself, that is who i would probably give that kind of PPO to.
hard for another person to figure out the exact placement i think i need.

 

 

8 hours ago, jwilly said:

Could this new tripod PPO be placeable wherever realistically useable, which is to say, almost anywhere? Real tripods set up fine on slopes and rooftops, in bushes, next to trees...lots of places.

Could the tripod PPO auto-disappear when the LMG gunner moved away from it? As if he took it with him, which of course he would in reality.

Probably, though rooftops i am not sure since buildings are considered another object.
But as for the other, yes i think they could be set to allow placement on rather lumpy locations

It could be set with a very low lifespan, and if you move away, it ceases refreshing and goes poof.
That way you dont have hundreds of them littered all over.

It would not give you cartwheel sights of course, but if you can point it in a stabilized manner at the targets, the sight might be kind of a minor
inconvenience.

As far as having them be something you can pop on and off the lmg like a grenade cup, i really can not say.
The infantry model and animation system is not something i really have any kind of skill in at all, and i dont know what would be entailed
to program in the functionality either, so anything i'd say would probably be nonsense at best.

Even with out it, some people will just wing it and get the hang of it, and others, well we will just stink even with a laser sighting dot with a lead computer
built in.
I literally have to wait till you fly at me with the bofors, then i might hit you, maybe.

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PPO should be given to trucks, they're the only unit who can reasonably be carrying around this type of equipment, deployed anyone can come by and use it but it needs to be supplied, whether ammo crate or rifleman.

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17 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Myself, that is who i would probably give that kind of PPO to.
hard for another person to figure out the exact placement i think i need.

 

 

Probably, though rooftops i am not sure since buildings are considered another object.
But as for the other, yes i think they could be set to allow placement on rather lumpy locations

It could be set with a very low lifespan, and if you move away, it ceases refreshing and goes poof.
That way you dont have hundreds of them littered all over.

It would not give you cartwheel sights of course, but if you can point it in a stabilized manner at the targets, the sight might be kind of a minor
inconvenience.

As far as having them be something you can pop on and off the lmg like a grenade cup, i really can not say.
The infantry model and animation system is not something i really have any kind of skill in at all, and i dont know what would be entailed
to program in the functionality either, so anything i'd say would probably be nonsense at best.

Even with out it, some people will just wing it and get the hang of it, and others, well we will just stink even with a laser sighting dot with a lead computer
built in.
I literally have to wait till you fly at me with the bofors, then i might hit you, maybe.

Make it simple. Add a deploy AA tripod button to all LMGs. Add it as additional deployed state. Over the long term it’s the better more simple solution. It may take some more coding in the short term sure but if we keep coding in half assed solutions that what the game turns into. A half assed game. 

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On 1/27/2019 at 11:25 PM, Silky said:

I’d rather see resource committed to developing the high alt strategic bombing game to balance out CAS kills 

 

 

Thatcwould open up a whole other playerbase and revenue stream for crs. 

in principle i agree with you - in practice though high altitude strategic airwar gameplay can't work well until horizontal view distances are at the very least doubled. my presumption here also is fishbowl dies a painful death 'soon' too.

on a 'clear sunny day' we can see - in theory - 6km/3.72miles. that's it. beyond that range 'nothing exists'. that isn't enough range for escorts nor interceptors to do their job. 64bit may allow us to push that out to say 12km and it may not, potentially requiring a significant overhaul of the client renderer.

just saying there is zero point to doing anything about the strategic airwar until such time that the view range is increased. development is best spent elsewhere.

 

as to the topic a hand, all for it. i think i'd prefer the PPO route for one reason. the upside of being able to deploy a LMG onto a 'ppo' should also allow for MMG PPOs. i agree the team aspect would limit use or hamper use but if we could also do MMG pits at the same time? would a PPO like this perhaps allow for bracing rifles on other PPOs too given that we'd need some interaction between the player and the object? idk - just seems logical that if we could deploy 'into/onto' a PPO we might be able to brace on other PPOs.

more cannon/HMG/multi barrel SPAA and towed options with progression IMO is still a better route. RCMG AA fire i just don't see as being all that effective - although i'm all for any/all AA options. anything to make CAS significantly more risky.

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8 hours ago, knucks said:

PPO should be given to trucks, they're the only unit who can reasonably be carrying around this type of equipment

An LMG tripod was a one man load in the field if need be, with another man carrying his rifle and field pack, or could be carried by two men with slings. Same as a German or French light mortar, or the barrel or base of a medium mortar. 

This PPO in that respect would be representationally different from some other PPOs that are the product of a construction project.

Quote

deployed anyone can come by and use it

The PPO under discussion "belongs" to the LMG crew (or gunner in-game). It's not a constructed, semi-permanent field installation. In the real world, if the gun moves, the tripod would go along...modeled in-game by it disappearing where it was previously set up.

 

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

An LMG tripod was a one man load in the field if need be, with another man carrying his rifle and field pack, or could be carried by two men with slings. Same as a German or French light mortar, or the barrel or base of a medium mortar. 

This PPO in that respect would be representationally different from some other PPOs that are the product of a construction project.

The PPO under discussion "belongs" to the LMG crew (or gunner in-game). It's not a constructed, semi-permanent field installation. In the real world, if the gun moves, the tripod would go along...modeled in-game by it disappearing where it was previously set up.

Then how do you explain the AI  MG  emplacements? Are you saying that it would be better for these to stay AI than to  let players take control and use them?

Edited by knucks

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2 hours ago, knucks said:

Then how do you explain the AI  MG  emplacements? Are you saying that it would be better for these to stay AI than to  let players take control and use them?

I'm not explaining them. They're a designed gameplay element. I'm not trying to change them. And, yes, I'm not proposing that players be able to take control of them. They're totally unrelated to the proposal at hand.

--> Rule of Product Development Simplicity: Add or fix as small a function as you can define. Don't allow mission creep.

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So it's not a LMG PPO then, it's either engineer or truck any anyone can come by and use the equipment. Great idea but I doubt CRS is going to give away LMG and light AA to the non paying player.

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1 minute ago, knucks said:

So it's not a LMG PPO then, it's either engineer or truck any anyone can come by and use the equipment. Great idea but I doubt CRS is going to give away LMG and light AA to the non paying player.

Are you not listening to him?
The tripod is a PPO, ONLY the tripod.
He places it where he needs it, he takes his present LMG he has spawned, and deploys it on the tripod, does his best to deter grass cutting EA

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17 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Are you not listening to him?
The tripod is a PPO, ONLY the tripod.
He places it where he needs it, he takes his present LMG he has spawned, and deploys it on the tripod, does his best to deter grass cutting EA

That's not the same as LMG as a unit, that's equipment using something other than just what an LMG carries, it's more comparible to the stationary AI MG implacements, not to a unit specific object. A truck does not come with a AT gun attached, that's where teamwork comes in but that's not a big thing in a game where all equipment is locked.

Edited by knucks

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I think this idea has a lot of merit. A single Rifle caliber MG is not going to be super effective vs aircraft but that doesn’t need to be the case. The whole point of all-arms air defence (small arms air defence) is to deter the attacking aircraft. If your AB or FMS is being attacked by low-level aircraft, the defending players could spawn LMGs / AA LMGs to deal with it enmass. One gun may not be very effective, 5 or 6 would be. Infantry are small / hard to hit and would have significantly more survivability than heavier AAA, which are both more easy to spot and eaiser to bomb. 

As much as many ground players want more dedicated AAA platforms, this PPO and or dedicated AAA LMG gunner could be just the trick to give all ground forces the abilty to defend themselves from air attack. 

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24 minutes ago, knucks said:

That's not the same as LMG as a unit, that's equipment using something other than just what an LMG carries, it's more comparible to the stationary AI MG implacements, not to a unit specific object. A truck does not come with a AT gun attached, that's where teamwork comes in but that's not a big thing in a game where all equipment is locked.

Funny, all equipment is unlocked for me. Perhaps if you weren’t poor ... 

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19 minutes ago, raptor34 said:

I think this idea has a lot of merit. A single Rifle caliber MG is not going to be super effective vs aircraft but that doesn’t need to be the case. The whole point of all-arms air defence (small arms air defence) is to deter the attacking aircraft. If your AB or FMS is being attacked by low-level aircraft, the defending players could spawn LMGs / AA LMGs to deal with it enmass. One gun may not be very effective, 5 or 6 would be. Infantry are small / hard to hit and would have significantly more survivability than heavier AAA, which are both more easy to spot and eaiser to bomb. 

As much as many ground players want more dedicated AAA platforms, this PPO and or dedicated AAA LMG gunner could be just the trick to give all ground forces the abilty to defend themselves from air attack. 

I dont disagree, however given how the TOE lists have gone of late, ‘AA lmg’ will be carved out of the LMG pool - until the players inevitably riot that normal LMGs are now fewer. IMO an AA LMG that can’t act as a normal LMG will present a TOE list issue - if not PPO - if not a dedicated unit in addition to the existing LMG - best route may to figure out how to allow the LMG to deploy in some other mode so as to avoid the inevitable TOE list issue.

given that issue, idk i kinda like JWilly’s ‘PPO elevated tripod’ idea for the LMG unit specifically. Spawn, deploy it in a corner with the arc of fire you want, then go to some other position and act as an LMG normally would. Need that AA tripod, un-deploy and run over to where your tripod is, deploy, hose the air. Perhaps allow engineers to deploy AA tripods? 

Works on defense, offense may have little use for it though. Will have to suspend disbelief too - where is that tripod kept if not deployed? Still may be the best route to entry.

 

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All infantry heavy weapons are only partly simulated. The light mortar moves as one man...check the weights and number of items and accessories, not too easy to do with any of the three mortar types while carrying all your own other kit. Certainly not practical if the 60mm is added.

All of the RPATS in the real world are two man teams because of the stuff that has to be carried. Ditto LMGs.

Maybe someday all infantry heavy weapons will have two player crews, towed guns will take two or three players, tanks will take two or three, and so forth. Not yet, though.

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

I dont disagree, however given how the TOE lists have gone of late, ‘AA lmg’ will be carved out of the LMG pool - until the players inevitably riot that normal LMGs are now fewer. IMO an AA LMG that can’t act as a normal LMG will present a TOE list issue - if not PPO - if not a dedicated unit in addition to the existing LMG - best route may to figure out how to allow the LMG to deploy in some other mode so as to avoid the inevitable TOE list issue.

given that issue, idk i kinda like JWilly’s ‘PPO elevated tripod’ idea for the LMG unit specifically. Spawn, deploy it in a corner with the arc of fire you want, then go to some other position and act as an LMG normally would. Need that AA tripod, un-deploy and run over to where your tripod is, deploy, hose the air. Perhaps allow engineers to deploy AA tripods? 

Works on defense, offense may have little use for it though. Will have to suspend disbelief too - where is that tripod kept if not deployed? Still may be the best route to entry.

 

Ideas have kind of been going back and forth, but I think the PPO part started with Merlin. 

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I also agree that a PPO would be the best short term solution. Ideally, it would be a deployable object that you or another player must "select from unit inventory", carry, place for use and pick up again if you want to move it.  Future plans. 

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More ways for INF players to get some revenge kills on EA are welcomed. :)

Pilots kill the “squishes” on the ground all too often without suffering any consequences.

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