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dre21

I think it's really time

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38 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

H39

 

Yea i was trying to get the armor closer in the imaginary lineup.
The real question here is, which one can drive from Tobruk to the Madagascar ferry on a tank of gas?
That is going to be the guy who wins, since the above scenario has no facilities in between

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3 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Yea i was trying to get the armor closer in the imaginary lineup.
The real question here is, which one can drive from Tobruk to the Madagascar ferry on a tank of gas?
That is going to be the guy who wins, since the above scenario has no facilities in between

Don’t forget the Fiat M13/40 ;-)

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back to OP... 

 

Please don't... go back to what was in place and maybe TWEAK it...Make less armour in inf brigades sure..and more in armour.. and ok maybe super heavy armour keep in amrour brigade.. 

But stop this nonsense of  non equal amount of SMGs/LMGs (i know it more or less got fixed mid-map)

16 matilda vs 4 STUG/4 232s ..... no half decent armour in french inf flags.. a [censored] load of easy to kill R35s ...

What was supposed to be the Hardest Campaign ever... became the MOST Annoying/Frustrating/Lame Campaign EVER

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2 minutes ago, madrebel said:

Don’t forget the Fiat M13/40 ;-)

true, that would perhaps pair off nicely with an AMC 35

How are the italians on fuel economy?
remember he has us going end to end with no option to refuel or rearm

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Well, fwiw, it was the Italians that setup and ran that supply line IRL. At the time the longest supply route in human history - ‘twas a great feat. Pretty sure he wants spawn/de spawn at some new PPO like FB though. That’s a lot of jerry cans otherwise.

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No, no, no, don't be absurd. First of all, Lemurs are creepy, and Madagascar isn't part of North Africa.

Secondly, You can put ammo boxes all over, refuel from trucks, spawn vehicles at the FMS', and HC can make their initial spawn placements from the vulture!

Forgive me for leaving out those details, I thought they were obvious.... 

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10 minutes ago, blggles said:

No, no, no, don't be absurd. First of all, Lemurs are creepy, and Madagascar isn't part of North Africa.

Secondly, You can put ammo boxes all over, refuel from trucks, spawn vehicles at the FMS', and HC can make their initial spawn placements from the vulture!

Forgive me for leaving out those details, I thought they were obvious.... 

Slight problem.
Trucks dont give fuel yet :(

But yea you left out the spawn vehicles from FMS part

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Ok, next truck placed PPO, as a compliment to the ammo crates, will be fuel drums.

Piece of cake.

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4 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

No offense but that line up is not good, or correct.
Panhard is same gun as the MLE 1934.
Yes, you can kill something, if you can get very close.
It is not really much of a one shot kill if the other guy doesn't let you drive up hit butt.

A13 has light armor, but the 2PDR outshoots all 3 listed here.
PZIII ausf F has a low velocity gun, the PZ38(t) would probably be closer, it's gun has some punch.
French wise, not sure, depending on what you are going for?
S35 is a bit heavy on the armored side in that trio maybe?

If we had the model in game, i might say the Renault R40
Which would basically be an R35 with a different track/suspension, and an APX-R1 turret with the SA38 L/35 37mm gun
maybe?

2PDR probably still winning in the shooting contest a bit.
But it's more in the vein of he who shoots 1st correctly wins as neither of the 3 will well withstand a proper hit from the other

Not good ? Pan is and will be the only vehicle out of the 3 that can just turn off the engine and roll into place before the 3f even noticed something was up.

Lol 38t u kidding ,  the Commander is the Gunner and with that the Axis would pull the short end out of the 3 . 

Any Rifle would render the 38t useless if the gunner /commander is exposed trying to asess the battlefield. 

S35 is already to heavy . The Pan has enough penetration power vs the 3f .

The h39 is to slow to give it to the French.

Other options would be h39 and pan for the French , Axis get 3f and the 232 or P2, Brits Vickers and A13 .

Is that more to your liking. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, blggles said:

revised idea, start at tier 1.5 in North Africa. 

+1. 

But Merlin would have a bunch of work to do to build that map. Libya's terrain is much more complicated that what's modeled in France, Belgium and Luxembourg.

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7 minutes ago, jwilly said:

+1. 

But Merlin would have a bunch of work to do to build that map. Libya's terrain is much more complicated that what's modeled in France, Belgium and Luxembourg.

xoom commented not too long ago that they were looking into leveraging the terrain improvements or improved techniques used in rapid assault. Of the remaining viable fronts (PTO just isn’t viable yet), Africa makes the most sense to model due to the compressed area near the coasts that is actually viable to model.

just saying, we ‘may’ have the ability to make the terrain and all its hard features. Still a giant amount of work but it may be possible. 

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I'd be interested in being part of building a tileset for Libya...or two tilesets, 800 meters and 50 meters, if Creator could work with that.

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50 minutes ago, dre21 said:

Pan is and will be the only vehicle out of the 3 that can just turn off the engine and roll into place

Not when hatch has time to properly audit the rolling wonders.
It is on his very long list of stuff.
It should not be able to cut the engine and roll 700m right up against the PZIII silently, nor should anything with wheels.
And when their priority is called up, they wont.
 

54 minutes ago, dre21 said:

The h39 is to slow to give it to the French.

Eh, i dont mind it, it isn't that terribly slow
 

55 minutes ago, dre21 said:

Lol 38t u kidding

No, gun wise it is superior to the IIIf and armor wise, is about on par with the A13

 

19 minutes ago, jwilly said:

But Merlin would have a bunch of work to do to build that map. Libya's terrain is much more complicated that what's modeled in France, Belgium and Luxembourg.

Send lots of sand...
 

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Just now, Merlin51 said:

Send lots of sand...

There's basically no sand in the historically relevant map area, except in a few patches to the south if you want the map to include the tracks to Al Jaghbub and Awjilah. Those southern tracks would only be for action between Raggruppamento Sahariano AS and the Long Range Desert Group.

All of inland northeastern Libya except for the Green Mountains (Jebel Achdar) and some parts of the narrow strip below the coastal escarpment is composed of fine clay, rough gravel, and exposed bedrock escarpments and ridges.

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Italian_empire_1942.PNG

Well, i figure, have to at least have it go east beyond El Alamein?
And south enough so it doesnt feel like you are playing on the edge of the world?

And must have the Ghiza Plateau, if for nothing else, tourists :) 

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Part of the challenge of trying to model the whole campaign, or at least the eastern (1940-42) part of it, is that it was so dependent on military events, supply actions and codebreaking that were external to the modelable military action. Also, modeling the Alamein area possibly would be irrelevant except in a re-creation, because what made that particular narrow passage significant was that the Germans were on a winning streak but were absolutely exhausted, and the Allies were on a losing streak but had recently received massive supplies and German communications traffic that allowed them to make Alamein impregnable before the 1942 Germans even got there.

Making the Alamein fighting winnable by both sides would require substantial changes to history...the Axis captures Malta in early 1941, Tobruk later in 1941, and build a railroad from Tunisia to the Egyptian border, and they don't have their communications broken. 

I think most customers are here more for tactical fighting than for a strategic conflict. As such, IMO a better game would result from just modeling the area from roughly Derna past Tobruk and Bardia to say 10 km past the Egyptian border, and from the Mediterranean coast in the north to say 70 km south of Bir Hachiem. Within that area, repeated armor-vs-armor and combined arms fighting took place in both 1941 and 1942, plus lots of actions to interdict the other side's supply movements since there were no conventional front lines, plus extensive air superiority and CAS fighting. 

WWIIOL%20North%20Africa%20Battle%20Area_

CPs would be at each of the 30 red dots.

WWIIOL%20North%20Africa%20Battle%20Area%

Edited by jwilly
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NA is definitely challenging from a game mechanics stand point.
You want it to feel authentic, but you do not want a re-enactment, and you want enough open options for it to be flexible
so the players can chose their importance, even if in real life it was just a sand dune with 2 guys spotting air traffic.
Though i doubt much anyone will be terribly interested in trying to have a fight out in the sand sea, very boring.
But some of those fringe locations i think you'd want.
It is a relatively narrow area, so having a bit of depth is helpful that things dont just get cut off too quickly.

I would also really like to not have to use a static FB system there.
Some sort of player directed dynamic FB system would seem to broaden the gameplay and make the area feel larger.
You might have lots of battles just to get yourself into a position to attack a CP
The trade off is you have to do some initial driving.

Strat deployment i am not sure of, i suppose it might depend on what one might consider a trigger for hostilities in NA in our alternate reality.
I know what it historically was, which in game terms is downright confusing kind of.
I had an animation once of the NA campaign from start to finish, and when you watched it play (it ran kind of quick), you got the impression of things
just randomly occurring which isn't a lot of fun game wise.

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It's 200 miles to the Great Sand Sea from Sidi Omar or Ajedabia or Bir Hacheim. That's a long way.

No FBs and only player placed spawning/supply route terminals would be fine. The existing code allows no FBs...the original map didn't have FBs on all links.

OTOH, it'd be anywhere from 20 to 75 miles between adjacent CPs along the desert tracks. Those tracks coincide with the "passes" up/down the desert escarpments, and were the only passable routes for supply trucks. Even 20 miles would be a long way for players to drive, at offroad speeds. Some sort of pre-placed or automatically placed spawning capability would have some gameplay merit.

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I think NA would be terrific but it'd require a rewire of the strat system. No FBs but lots and lots of smallish CPs in a grid system - think route markers (oil drums), cairns, derelicts, ruins etc where the larger areas like El Adem and Bir El Gubi (desolate places really) would have CPs condensed in tight clusters - essentially one for each house, mosque and shed. If you wanted to bypass the CPs and drive deep you fight with what you bring. The coastal area is quite daunting with the commanding escarpment, very hilly terrain, wadis and in places lots of vegetation/plantations.

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ya'll know the pan has a .85-1 K/D vs the 4D right

232 is like .2 vs every tank

and a13 .5-.7

 

so, stats don't matter these days? only historical $$$ cost?

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If you want discuss an Africa campaign open your own thread , but in all honesty the Allies would complain to get the 88 removed from the spawn list then.

 

My thread is more to get everything almost dead even  and what I outlined everything can kill anything in pretty much one shot not much need jogging into place and waiting for that kill shot.

The debate is always what and who makes the move  is it the Spawn list or is it the player base or is it the equipment. 

In my 1 ONE. Map experiment I think we could really pin point it what it is . Each side has the same amount of ground stuff . It might just come down to skill and not even who has more people on who's side. What is everyone afraid of ?

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17 hours ago, potthead said:

back to OP... 

 

Please don't... go back to what was in place and maybe TWEAK it...Make less armour in inf brigades sure..and more in armour.. and ok maybe super heavy armour keep in amrour brigade.. 

But stop this nonsense of  non equal amount of SMGs/LMGs (i know it more or less got fixed mid-map)

16 matilda vs 4 STUG/4 232s ..... no half decent armour in french inf flags.. a [censored] load of easy to kill R35s ...

What was supposed to be the Hardest Campaign ever... became the MOST Annoying/Frustrating/Lame Campaign EVER

and one of the most boring and one sided ever......

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