Capco

The FMS, the Light Infantry FRU, and You

Mission Leader FRUs   62 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we expand/reintroduce the Infantry-based FRU?

    • Yes (LMG allowed)
      19
    • Yes (LMG restricted)
      10
    • No
      33

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203 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, aismov said:

I vividly remember trying to defend a town with ATGs back in the FRU days. It was terrible since EI would literally come from every possible direction.

True. Now the 3 EI that you’re left facing these days can’t possibly come from every direction. 

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How about cant place an FRU more than X meters from a CP, FMS or FB?

This doesnt prevent an fms from getting behind you but limits how far from town or how far from the offensive fms that an fru can be placed. Also keeps the logic simple to implelement w/o requiring more in depth 'where is the front' logic?

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12 minutes ago, madrebel said:

How about cant place an FRU more than X meters from a CP, FMS or FB?

This doesnt prevent an fms from getting behind you but limits how far from town or how far from the offensive fms that an fru can be placed. Also keeps the logic simple to implelement w/o requiring more in depth 'where is the front' logic?

This is similar to the "daisy-chain" concept and is something I've always wanted, and I've mentioned it to Xoom at least once.  Use the FMS as it's own "FB" from which you can link a FRU to as an advanced element, while the heavy stuff stays back at the FMS.  Take out the FMS, and the linked FRU goes with it.  

 

You can have 3 check boxes:  one for FMS, one for FRU, one for CP of origin (AB/FB/depot).  

Edited by Capco

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You know... If WWIIOL could drop the self righteous "where the bestest thing that ever happened to MMO FPSs and we've been around for evaaaaaaaar and inspire blind loyalty and therefore know everything" mantra that I saw the other day in the forums it may benefit them.  Maybe... just maybe.... they should take a look at what other games have done in terms of spawning that has proven to be successful.  

For example.  WWIIOL always talks about how squads are important to the game.  My gosh!  What happened to the squads!!!? Where have the squads gone!!?  What can we do promote squad play!?  Then it pretty much ends there.  No real follow up.  Zip. Zilch.  Nothing. A big old goose egg.

I don't know.  Maybe look at this discussion as an opportunity to promote SQUAD play.  Bring back the infantry placed FRU as a squad only spawning function.  Only squad members can spawn from it.  Give its creation a personnel proximity requirement. You know, just like other games (gasp).  Make it so it takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 to 5 players to place the spawn.  Heck, you could even scale the number of players it takes to place one by game population.  1 AO 3 players, 2 AOs 5 players or something to that effect.  Then you promote squads and squad cohesion all at once by giving them a benefit.  Imagine that.

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1 hour ago, Capco said:

In most parts of the map, you might have an average of 12-15 towns on the front, of which half are usually "good" AOs.  It's pretty easy to tell which AOs are good for you enemy, and therefore which FBs need the most watching, which adds yet another obstacle to starting an attack.  Provided you even have control of the FBs necessary, cycling through the same 6 towns every 40 minutes is extremely unsatisfying gameplay for most people, especially considering their chances of success. 

Do you think people want to wait nearly 40 minutes in between AOs just for the CHANCE to see action?  No.  What happens is people will flock to defense because the action is easier to come by, since the other side is bringing the action to you.  And that lean towards defense just increases the chances that AOs will not produce any action. 

The point I'm trying to make is that if we agree that attacking/defending is in some way broken, or can be improved, then address the source of the problem, rather than (re)creating a new system that was overall terrible for gameplay. It's pretty obvious what the issue is: AOs, HC availability, and CP capture timers. These are the fundamental issues that should be addressed.

There are pretty simple solutions to all of those things I listed about. But creating an infantry FRU is not going to improve any of those, and all it will do is ruin an possibility of having frontlines or any semblence of a frontline/defensive line. How a FRU would be (mis)used is pretty obvious: MLs on second accounts would be hiding in the bushes and popping up a new one every time the previous one gets taken down. An infantry-placed object is essentially non-interdictable and is by its fundamental design something that is ripe for exploitation, avoidance of confrontation by placing them away from the enemy, and the opposite of fun battles.

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23 minutes ago, aismov said:

all it will do is ruin an possibility of having frontlines or any semblence of a frontline/defensive line.

Front lines are made by people, not some invisible barrier.  If a sector isn't covered, it isn't covered because no one is watching it.

23 minutes ago, aismov said:

An infantry-placed object is essentially non-interdictable and is by its fundamental design something that is ripe for exploitation, avoidance of confrontation by placing them away from the enemy, and the opposite of fun battles.

False.  There is a physical manifestation in the game world in the form of an infantryman running around.  Find him.  Kill him.  What's not interdictable is the way brigades move in game.

Edited by minky

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I might be open to this for an attacking side, but no way a defending side should have be able to drop one inf unit behind the line and spawn inf on ground you have already lost. If u are defending and you can get a truck out there behind the enemy lines, then its the fault of the attackers, so I am ok with that..but one inf unit should not be able to do it when defending a town.

You make it only for paras. then again I might be open to it. Since dropping paras behind an attacking line should be utlitzlied more in game.

However, I don't think this is really an issue of adding or bringing back the inf placed FRU. I see it as an issue of town design and town layout, that is the problem. Most towns are too compact and occupuy to small of a footprint on the scale of the map.

Bring more ruins into the game on outskirts of town or add more farm buildings outside of town to allow the attacking side a foothold into the general area of attack. If you have some sort of buildings to shield your attack, FMS they would probably last longer and would be easier to setup. IMHO we need to expand the outskirts of each town, right now all the CPs are way to close together in most towns, that's what makes it difficult to attack & cap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The idea mentioned by Minky where only your own squad members can spawn by an inf placed FRU is actually worth looking into- it could be the private FRU that some members want.

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36 minutes ago, aismov said:

avoidance of confrontation by placing them away from the enemy

It is a short-term avoidance of confrontation that leads to a long-term engagement of confrontation.  The exact opposite is true with the FMS.  Short term, you get immediate confrontation, but long-term it leads to less confrontation.  Getting frustrated because an EI killed your ATG is better than not having a battle to fight at all during the massive dead periods that can occur in between AO placement.  

 

Again I ask, which is more fun to you?  Killing a truck driver, or fighting an actual battle in a town?  And which do you think is going to be more fun for the people who don't play this game but might?

 

As far as ZoCs go, think about how it played out with the old system.  You had the FRU at the rear of the ZoC, with ATGs, infantry, and maybe some armor all in the same vicinity.  Now, all it took was one sneaky EI to get around the ZoC and nade the ZoC FRU, then systematically dismantle your ZoC by spawning whatever they needed from their nearby FRU.  

 

Now think how it would play out today with the Light Infantry FRU and the FMS.  The spawnpoint in the ZoC would not be an easily destroyed FRU, but a hardy FMS.  If an enemy tried to flank the ZoC with a Light Infantry FRU, the best they could do is temporarily camp the FMS and kill the initial defenders.  With no easy way to take down the ZoC FMS and no AT-capabilty, the nearby armor would be able either clear the camp or provide enough cover for the dead to respawn, fight off the attack, and destroy the FRU.  If an enemy tried to flank you with a truck, the ZoC would be able to engage them with greater ease before they could place an FMS due to the inherent vulnerability associated with the truck (and this would be important, since an eFMS on your flank would actually be able to destroy your ZoC via spawning engineers and AT-capable infantry).  

Edited by Capco

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2 minutes ago, minky said:

Front lines are made by people, not some invisible barrier.  If a sector isn't covered, it isn't covered because no one is watching it.

False.  Their is a physical manifestation in the game world in the form of an infantryman running around.  Find him.  Kill him.  What's not interdictable is the way brigades move in game.

I completely agree with you on brigade movement which is why (thankfully) in 1.36 they are essentially going to the way of the dodo and we are going to get real supply and attrition back in the game. The FRU experience shows us exactly the opposite. It is essentially impossible to defend against and infantry FRU. You think you have a solid defense around town, and oh wait, some infantry snuck through the bushes and now 20 guys are spawning to your rear. That is an army out of a box and IMHO excactly the opposite of fun.

If you want combined arms warfare and some semblance of infantry support you can't have a system where the battle is raging one direction and then all of a sudden the enemy magically appears behind you. You can get away with it as a tank if you limit the FRU to no anti-tank weapons, but infantry, ATGs, and AA guns will be destroyed just like they were back in the FRU days. There will be no incentive to set up any of those assets if somebody can place a FRU wherever they desire.

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3 minutes ago, aismov said:

I completely agree with you on brigade movement which is why (thankfully) in 1.36 they are essentially going to the way of the dodo and we are going to get real supply and attrition back in the game. The FRU experience shows us exactly the opposite. It is essentially impossible to defend against and infantry FRU. You think you have a solid defense around town, and oh wait, some infantry snuck through the bushes and now 20 guys are spawning to your rear. That is an army out of a box and IMHO excactly the opposite of fun.

If you want combined arms warfare and some semblance of infantry support you can't have a system where the battle is raging one direction and then all of a sudden the enemy magically appears behind you. You can get away with it as a tank if you limit the FRU to no anti-tank weapons, but infantry, ATGs, and AA guns will be destroyed just like they were back in the FRU days. There will be no incentive to set up any of those assets if somebody can place a FRU wherever they desire.

Notice the player proximity requirements mentioned above. If you let a fire team slip through shame on you. 

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8 minutes ago, Capco said:

Now think how it would play out today with the Light Infantry FRU and the FMS.  The spawnpoint in the ZoC would not be an easily destroyed FRU, but a hardy FMS.  If an enemy tried to flank the ZoC with a Light Infantry FRU, the best they could do is temporarily camp the FMS and at best kill the initial defenders.  With no easy way to take down the ZoC FMS and no AT capabilty, the nearby armor would be able either clear the camp or provide enough cover for the dead to respawn,fight off the attack, and destroy the FRU.  If an enemy tried to flank you with a truck, the ZoC would be able to engage them with greater ease before they could place an FMS due to the inherent vulnerability associated with the truck (and this would be important, since an eFMS on your flank would actually be able to destroy your ZoC via spawning engineers).  

Unfortunately the reality in how it will likely be used is that it will be placed all over the place with the intention of warping units across enemy held territory with the intention 1) camp a spawn point, or 2) ninja cap a CP. In the FRU days it happened all the time, a FRU got "too hot" and it was simply taken down and a new one popped up where that part of town was lightly defended. It was a never ending 360-degree battle of ant trails leading into town with attacking infantry trying to sneak through and place a FRU while defending infantry sneak through the bushes in order to ninja grenade it. That is how most FRUs were taken down. Not by some concerted combined-arms push to take it out.

Players will naturally always take the path of least resistance. Which is to warp safely across ground to avoid getting killed and to hide as much as possible and take out a target by sneaking in. Its a similar model of how FBs get taken down. Very rarely is it done by a tank push, usually its engineers sneaking in and avoiding contact with the enemy at all costs.

EDIT:

@minky There are certainly ways to code the FRU and I think that requiring player proximity is a good idea. But there is no way to realistically defend 360-degrees around a contested town. We could barely do that back in the early 2000s, not to mention today. There simply have to be hard coded geographic limits of where a FRU can and can't be placed for the reasons I mentioned above, namely it will be impossible to set up any defensive line manned by soft targets (infantry, ATG, AA). Not to mention that enemy spawning to your rear is gamey as heck. If your fireteam managed to get through then hats off to you and go create havoc! But you don't get to invite your 20 unspawned friends along to the party as well. Just my own $0.02 on the matter. S!

Edited by aismov

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4 minutes ago, aismov said:

Unfortunately the reality in how it will likely be used is that it will be placed all over the place with the intention of warping units across enemy held territory with the intention 1) camp a spawn point, or 2) ninja cap a CP. In the FRU days it happened all the time, a FRU got "too hot" and it was simply taken down and a new one popped up where that part of town was lightly defended. It was a never ending 360-degree battle of ant trails leading into town with attacking infantry trying to sneak through and place a FRU while defending infantry sneak through the bushes in order to ninja grenade it. That is how most FRUs were taken down. Not by some concerted combined-arms push to take it out.

Players will naturally always take the path of least resistance. Which is to warp safely across ground to avoid getting killed and to hide as much as possible and take out a target by sneaking in. Its a similar model of how FBs get taken down. Very rarely is it done by a tank push, usually its engineers sneaking in and avoiding contact with the enemy at all costs.

And that lead to more action in the towns instead of being able to kill off attacks completely with ease.  Attacks = action.  No attacks = no action.  Less attacks = less action.  Do I need to communicate it in flash cards or something?  

 

You're essentially saying that you prefer less action because that action occasionally frustrated your inability to cope with it.  And while my proposal makes the FRU significantly easier to deal with and less threatening than ever before, you still want less action, and by extension, fewer players playing.  

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2 minutes ago, Capco said:

And that lead to more action in the towns instead of being able to kill off attacks completely with ease.  Attacks = action.  No attacks = no action.  Less attacks = less action.  Do I need to communicate it in flash cards or something? 

You're essentially saying that you prefer less action because that action occasionally frustrated your inability to cope with it.  And while my proposal makes the FRU significantly easier to deal with and less threatening than ever before, you still want less action, and by extension, fewer players playing.  

I don't consider "action" to be binary as you can have good/quality action, and bad action. A solid combined arms attack on a town with air support is good action in my book. Infantry infiltrating from every which direction looking for a way through the proverbial back door may be action but is it quality action? The latter system wastes the uniqueness of combined arms and longer engagement ranges since the whole point of the FRU to to cut out the need for tank/ATG/air support since it is easier to sneak in a spawn point and warp your troops safely across the battlefield.

I personally love it when there is a good fight and even if my position is overrun I know it is because I got outplayed by the other guys. There is,m however, nothing more frustrating than having a solid position set up and be taken out by a guy from your rear that warped across your defensive ZoC and attacked your from behind. Just my own biased opinion, I guess we have to agree to disagree! S!

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ninja-fest AO's are better than constant dead AO's

 

aismov... your completely ignorant of the fact that wwii:ol is a video game.

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9 minutes ago, aismov said:

I don't consider "action" to be binary as you can have good/quality action, and bad action. A solid combined arms attack on a town with air support is good action in my book. Infantry infiltrating from every which direction looking for a way through the proverbial back door may be action but is it quality action? The latter system wastes the uniqueness of combined arms and longer engagement ranges since the whole point of the FRU to to cut out the need for tank/ATG/air support since it is easier to sneak in a spawn point and warp your troops safely across the battlefield.

I personally love it when there is a good fight and even if my position is overrun I know it is because I got outplayed by the other guys. There is,m however, nothing more frustrating than having a solid position set up and be taken out by a guy from your rear that warped across your defensive ZoC and attacked your from behind. Just my own biased opinion, I guess we have to agree to disagree! S!

One last point.  It's just as easy for me to spawn an engineer, walk through all of your interdictable assets, and set 4 charges on your FMS in your ZoC, and once it's down I can snipe every incoming truck while staying hidden with ease.  A FRU that doesn't have the capability to spawn engineers or AT-capable infantry can't do that, and is extremely vulnerable to all forms of armor.  

 

Just saying.

 

S!

Edited by Capco

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56 minutes ago, blakeh said:

The idea mentioned by Minky where only your own squad members can spawn by an inf placed FRU is actually worth looking into- it could be the private FRU that some members want.

It certainly wasn’t my idea. I lifted it directly from games like squad, post scriptum, and he’ll let loose. 

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22 minutes ago, minky said:

he’ll let loose. 

What exactly is he going to let loose again?

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12 minutes ago, Capco said:

What exactly is he going to let loose again?

Infantry FRUs. Many many infantry FRUs. 

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On 2/3/2019 at 5:45 PM, raptor34 said:

I'd venture that we don't have much to lose in the short term from trying impassible bush lines. Ideally, infantry would be able to cut through them slowly crossways and tanks able to push through them based on speed and mass. Until that day though, impassable lines would be the better of the two options. It would also cut down on trucks flying through the fields at full speed. 

I think it is a terrible idea, as then bullets could not pass through bushes either, might as well model them as all concrete structures if that is the case.  Sure the perfect solution is to have passability variable (ie tanks can drive through, infantry cannot), but common sense dictates this would be a huge undertaking, and quite honestly there are other things that the limited amount of coders working on this game should be spending there time on first. 

Edited by nc0gnet0

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:26 PM, Capco said:

After playing around with the HC Officer FRUs (i.e. infantry-placed FRUs with increased durability that can only spawn bolt-action riflemen), I am thoroughly convinced that the infantry-placed FRU needs to make a comeback in a much bigger and more impactful form than it currently has.  

 

My proposal for a Light Infantry FRU is as follows:

 

1) Remove the HC Officer class (I don't like stratification, especially along HC/non-HC lines).

2) Replace with the Mission Leader class (exact same load out and function) that is available to all premium subscribers (and maybe in DLC form).

3) Increase supply from 10 to 15 units per flag, depending on DLC amounts.

4) This FRU has the same durability as the old Inf-Placed FRU (takes 1 grenade to destroy).

5) Restrict unit spawning to Light Infantry:  Riflemen (including Semi-Autos), SMGs, and LMGs*.

6) Do NOT include specialist/heavy* infantry units (snipers, grenadiers, mortars, engineers, sappers, RPATs, Mission Leaders); these should remain FMS spawnable-only.

 

Merits:

1) It offers a secondary option to the noisy, large, truck-placed FMS.

2) It removes the AT element that was so unpopular among tankers with the old FRUs.

3) Once a defense is "out in the fields", their presence makes the deployment of a truck-based FMS difficult.  The Light Infantry FRU allows for an AO to be sustained beyond this phase.

4) It provides more firepower than the HC-placed FRU we have now.

5) Tanks will still be vulnerable to the more obvious FMS-spawned heavy infantry.

6) It allows the Underpop Side a better chance at setting up attacks than otherwise possible with the truck-placed FMS.

7) It means the Mission Leader unit itself must be kept alive in order to reset the FRU (instead of any surviving infantry regardless of class, thus allowing defenders to "kill the mole"). New Mission Leader units may not spawn at the Light Infantry FRU.  

 

*In regards to the LMG, some might argue that the LMG is a "heavy weapon", while others might argue that it is an essential element of light infantry units.  The choice is yours to make in the poll.

 

S!

The poll is not really setup right, having two yes options and only one no option splits the yes vote. Although, I voted no. I would much rather see tweaks made to the truck built FMS than the infantry fru re-introdcuced. 

1) Slightly closer placement of truck base fms allowed

2) Audio range of trucks cut by 1/3 ( can not be heard by enemy forces further out than say 800M)

3) although CRS denies it, I still swear trucks were nerfed as to speed, I can never get a laffy in 8th gear on flat terrain anymore. It acts as if terrain penalties were modified. 

The last patch made FMS placement a lot pickier, I preferred the old way, even if we occasionally had off-center issues. Now we are getting more FMS forced to be deployed in wide open areas. 

If more action is what you want, just move the Fb's slighter closer to the cities. 

Edited by nc0gnet0

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@aismov @dre21 @B2KDo you guys understand that there is less action overall with the FMS than with the FRU?  You are all willing to sacrifice action (and by an extension of that, more population) just because the Inf FRU hits your "realism" funny bone?  At a time when the game is begging for more bodies, you want to continue on the course making battles hard to occur, which leads to less action, which leads to less reason to log in, which leads to fewer people playing?  

 

Let me ask everyone this.  What is more fun to you:  Killing off an enemy attack before it even gets started by killing a few trucks, or fighting a battle in the town where the attackers are pushed out?

Let me ask you this question , do you understand that we have lost countless Tankers and ATG players , not to mention players that were into the Sim aspect of the game which we lost when any ML could just swim across a River and get an instant Army unleashed onto a town. Bridges ment nothing anymore be in a destroyed stage or not, with that bomber pilots left the game also. Cause you took one more task away from them where they could actually make a difference in an Attack or Defensive stance.  

You said we don't understand,  we very well understand and we saw why players left and might never return , and now you guys want to start expanding the FRU again . 

You want to know what's more fun killing an enemy attack before it starts or pushing the enemy out.

I love both , if I can stop an enemy attack before it even gets a foot hold that's a major achievement , if I can do it by myself it's even better. ( only happened once that was me flanking my Tank onto a ridge and took out every Allied Armor they had on the west side shortly after the AO was pulled )

But if I have set up a FMS outside of town and I'm playing scout and I can stop Trucks and or report everything that's leaving the FB is just fine and good by me too and then  let my fellow players handle what comes into town .

If I spawn in and it's a town already under attack yes then I have fun trying to push them out , which BTW is way harder cause you just got there and it takes a few deaths before you know where they all are , if you get that chance , cause usually they are well established and it's an uphill battle which I don't mind.

So I like both, nowhere is it written that we have to let the attacking force get a foothold. If we can crush the attack before it even starts the the other side has to except defeat and look for an easier target maybe not that 2 AB town for the cut off but a smaller town with 2 1 AB and only 3 Cps. 

Gain a town and then come back later to it when there are more AOs on the map , the forces spread out , time of day or what ever else the factor could be.

But to expand the FRU iny eyes will once again make natural obstacles obsolete.  And we lost to many players because of that and if you want to kill off the rest of the ATG and AAA community then be my guest . I'll stop playing once the Sapper gets to spawn again from a FRU , cause that cry will be down the road and i can already hear it.

Just as I could hear the cry for expansion when CRS started this goofy talk of HC set  FRU . And the player base did not disappoint and I was right.

So you guys want to expand and I'll say good bye.

 

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it's soo easy to end a attack before it even gets going though

little skill teamwork or leadership needed

Edited by major0noob

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@dre21Even if we agree to disagree, thank you for taking the time to respond.  I don't think that any attacker should just be given a foothold, but I would like to make things a little easier in that regard.  

 

The poll numbers don't look promising, but at least we are getting some other ideas being tossed around about how to help the attacker.  A lot of people recognize that something needs to be done to make the game less defense-centric.  

 

S!

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2 hours ago, dre21 said:

Let me ask you this question , do you understand that we have lost countless Tankers and ATG players , not to mention players that were into the Sim aspect of the game which we lost when any ML could just swim across a River and get an instant Army unleashed onto a town. Bridges ment nothing anymore be in a destroyed stage or not, with that bomber pilots left the game also. Cause you took one more task away from them where they could actually make a difference in an Attack or Defensive stance.  

You said we don't understand,  we very well understand and we saw why players left and might never return , and now you guys want to start expanding the FRU again . 

You want to know what's more fun killing an enemy attack before it starts or pushing the enemy out.

I love both , if I can stop an enemy attack before it even gets a foot hold that's a major achievement , if I can do it by myself it's even better. ( only happened once that was me flanking my Tank onto a ridge and took out every Allied Armor they had on the west side shortly after the AO was pulled )

But if I have set up a FMS outside of town and I'm playing scout and I can stop Trucks and or report everything that's leaving the FB is just fine and good by me too and then  let my fellow players handle what comes into town .

If I spawn in and it's a town already under attack yes then I have fun trying to push them out , which BTW is way harder cause you just got there and it takes a few deaths before you know where they all are , if you get that chance , cause usually they are well established and it's an uphill battle which I don't mind.

So I like both, nowhere is it written that we have to let the attacking force get a foothold. If we can crush the attack before it even starts the the other side has to except defeat and look for an easier target maybe not that 2 AB town for the cut off but a smaller town with 2 1 AB and only 3 Cps. 

Gain a town and then come back later to it when there are more AOs on the map , the forces spread out , time of day or what ever else the factor could be.

But to expand the FRU iny eyes will once again make natural obstacles obsolete.  And we lost to many players because of that and if you want to kill off the rest of the ATG and AAA community then be my guest . I'll stop playing once the Sapper gets to spawn again from a FRU , cause that cry will be down the road and i can already hear it.

Just as I could hear the cry for expansion when CRS started this goofy talk of HC set  FRU . And the player base did not disappoint and I was right.

So you guys want to expand and I'll say good bye.

 

Very well said. Echoes my own sentiments exactly, especially the part of how the FRU warps soldiers over natural obstacles, prepared defences, and eliminates and entire subset of combined arms play.

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