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Capco

The FMS, the Light Infantry FRU, and You

Mission Leader FRUs   62 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we expand/reintroduce the Infantry-based FRU?

    • Yes (LMG allowed)
      19
    • Yes (LMG restricted)
      10
    • No
      33

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

203 posts in this topic

24 minutes ago, blggles said:

I remember a long time ago when there were far more players and no mobile spawns whatsoever.

This feels like an absurd and interminable argument that is akin to the cap timer arguments. Much ado about nothing, the spirit of it reminds me of "Waiting for Godot".

This is what you get when the essence of the gameplay, the spawn and capture rules, are and always have been FUBAR. The unending rerigging of a juryrigged system.

Good luck, but this doesn't even seem worth a bucket of popcorn.

Sorry, I hope you all do manage to make the game a bit better, I just felt the need to get that out.

how pray tell would we move away from static spawns without "rerigginy or juryriggin" a layered mobile spawn system and area capture?

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I can go on attack, and after spending 15 minutes dodging tanks and enemies and checking chat and the map and using all my accumulated knowledge of the game, capture a depot or get a few kills. Most of the time kill nothing. Much of the time I'm staring at a gray wall.

Or I can go on defense, plop down on the edge of town somewhere and promptly get 20+ kills sniping infantry as they spawn from their FMS. With just a bolt-action. It's a comparatively enjoyable turkey shoot.

So it's not surprising that there are players really upset about any proposal to give the attacker a boost to and make attacks easier, I just wish they would come out and say "Farming easy kills on defense is fun and I enjoy it." There were certainly plenty of them doing it during the Steam launch, guys sitting in tanks telling Steam players that had been in game for two minutes to "use combined arms".

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26 minutes ago, madrebel said:

how pray tell would we move away from static spawns without "rerigginy or juryriggin" a layered mobile spawn system and area capture?

With limited resources juryrigging it must be, that said, slicing and dicing current MS spawn specifics doesn't seem to promise more than unending gripes and arguments. Would that things like area capture were in fact on the table.

I'd like to apologize again for my earlier post, it was altogether too negative and unproductive, especially when folks are sincerely trying to help. This game sure has a way of drawing one in with its vision, then becoming so ridiculously frustrating when it doesn't live up.

 

 

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

how? how will it decimate the tank game with no sappers and no RPATs. please explain.

 

as a pilot first player, who also happens to have a lot of ground missions over the years, not everything needs to holistically improve all aspects of the game. some things can be focused on a specific subset and still be fine, so long as it isn't at the expense of another aspect.

how again would a FRU with no AT units destroy the AFV game?

from the stand point of the defender, they magically appeared in a place they shouldn't have been. surprise is a real factor in real battle. you're picking nits over 12 actual players flanking versus one flanking that can force multiply to say 12 via a one shot FRU. wish we had the population where 12 guys could just go on a hike and not affect their side negatively, we don't have that ATM though.

 

further, again, having a distance restriction as to where the FRU can be placed alleviates most of this concern.

 

so, please, how would a restricted FRU kill anything?

How can you be so myopic?  Just because you have limited the FRU's to no ATG's or sappers, doesn't change the fact that you have eliminated their reason (tanks) to exist in game.  Inf that can just suddenly appear behind the defensive line by magically warping in behind the tanks set-up in  defensive positions, which normally suppress the oncoming advance of troops, means tanks will no longer serve a purpose. You will be making this an infantry only game.  

Edited by nc0gnet0
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1 hour ago, nc0gnet0 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but how many of those forces teleported in without first having to flank around the defense? There is a difference here. 

Then you better get rid of the FMS, the way brigades move, and start on one part of the map and move from battle to battle via truck, rail, or air. Anything else is just bull [censored]. 

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2 minutes ago, minky said:

Then you better get rid of the FMS, the way brigades move, and start on one part of the map and move from battle to battle via truck, rail, or air. Anything else is just bull [censored]. 

While essentially correct, the fms is still distance limited, whereas the INf place FRU is not. It's one thing to assume a brigade of troops has moved within 1km of an enemy town (truck placed fms), quite another to have them suddenly appear at your doorstep (inf placed fru). 

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2 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

While essentially correct, the fms is still distance limited, whereas the INf place FRU is not. It's one thing to assume a brigade of troops has moved within 1km of an enemy town (truck placed fms), quite another to have them suddenly appear at your doorstep (inf placed fru). 

Inf placed FRUs had the exact same rules and restrictions as the FMS in terms of distance and placement. One was essentially replaced with the other 1 for 1. 

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57 minutes ago, david06 said:

I can go on attack, and after spending 15 minutes dodging tanks and enemies and checking chat and the map and using all my accumulated knowledge of the game, capture a depot or get a few kills. Most of the time kill nothing. Much of the time I'm staring at a gray wall.

Or I can go on defense, plop down on the edge of town somewhere and promptly get 20+ kills sniping infantry as they spawn from their FMS. With just a bolt-action. It's a comparatively enjoyable turkey shoot.

So it's not surprising that there are players really upset about any proposal to give the attacker a boost to and make attacks easier, I just wish they would come out and say "Farming easy kills on defense is fun and I enjoy it." There were certainly plenty of them doing it during the Steam launch, guys sitting in tanks telling Steam players that had been in game for two minutes to "use combined arms".

True enough. There is a subset of players in this game that thinks shooting people with a tank as they spawn is somehow the pinicle of “combined arms warfare”.   Having to out think an enemy already fielded disturbs them. 

The Steam folks called the game spawn camp online for a reason. 

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12 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

Inf that can just suddenly appear behind the defensive line by magically warping in behind the tanks set-up in  defensive positions, which normally suppress the oncoming advance of troops, means tanks will no longer serve a purpose. You will be making this an infantry only game.  

Yes it will be harder to grab a tank and farm infantry on defense, but maybe there is some other purpose for a WW2-era tank besides a mobile pillbox. It might have something to do with driving cross-country and supporting something. Maybe even operating en masse as a formation.

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3 minutes ago, minky said:

Inf placed FRUs had the exact same rules and restrictions as the FMS in terms of distance and placement. One was essentially replaced with the other 1 for 1. 

Except it's easy to sneak a lone infantry behind your lines and spawn a massive force multiplier of 20 infantry (which wouldn't have been able to sneak in with such large numbers in the first place), than to attempt the same thing with a noisy, big truck.

One type of play requires combined arms play and mutual support if assets from the varying branches to make an attack while the other eliminates their need and turns battles I to essentially infantry-only affairs.

And lastly the rife-only FRU may not be an issue for hard assets like tanks, but it can still easily decimate soft targets like ATGs or AA guns.

Back in the FRU days it was impossible to set up any lasting ATG position because the second you started firing an EI from a behind-the-lines FRU would come up and shoot you from behind while all your supporting infantry was 200m ahead of you foolishly thinking the attack should be coming from ahead of them and not behind.

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21 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

How can you be so myopic?  Just because you have limited the FRU's to no ATG's or sappers, doesn't change the fact that you have eliminated their reason (tanks) to exist in game.  Inf that can just suddenly appear behind the defensive line by magically warping in behind the tanks set-up in  defensive positions, which normally suppress the oncoming advance of troops, means tanks will no longer serve a purpose. You will be making this an infantry only game.  

and how can you be so dense? again, what if the FRU cannot be deployed further than X meters from AB/FB/CP/FMS  and -Ym from enemy CP/FB/FMS/AB and with NO ATGs, no RPATs, and no Sappers?

and this invalidates tanks? FRUs could only be 'warped' X distance from the FMS. if a tank is X+50 meters, its still a giant problem.

20 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

While essentially correct, the fms is still distance limited, whereas the INf place FRU is not. It's one thing to assume a brigade of troops has moved within 1km of an enemy town (truck placed fms), quite another to have them suddenly appear at your doorstep (inf placed fru). 

and what if it were limited? or said another way, what limits should it have?

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3 minutes ago, aismov said:

Except it's easy to sneak a lone infantry behind your lines and spawn a massive force multiplier of 20 infantry (which wouldn't have been able to sneak in with such large numbers in the first place), than to attempt the same thing with a noisy, big truck.

One type of play requires combined arms play and mutual support if assets from the varying branches to make an attack while the other eliminates their need and turns battles I to essentially infantry-only affairs.

And lastly the rife-only FRU may not be an issue for hard assets like tanks, but it can still easily decimate soft targets like ATGs or AA guns.

Back in the FRU days it was impossible to set up any lasting ATG position because the second you started firing an EI from a behind-the-lines FRU would come up and shoot you from behind while all your supporting infantry was 200m ahead of you foolishly thinking the attack should be coming from ahead of them and not behind.

There is nothing that stops that same infantry from sneaking out and wiping out all your ATGs anyway.  The example you posted earlier as a success story only proves that. You still got wiped out by the guy running out there. Same result. 

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The best part of this debate is that people are arguing that the FMS is somehow more “realistic” than the FRU. It’s like watching two D&D players argue about whether fairies and ogres are real. 

A clue here. Neither construct is real. They are both instruments to facilitate gameplay by creating action. Which one actually does a better job of it?

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Just now, minky said:

There is nothing that stops that same infantry from sneaking out and wiping out all your ATGs anyway.  The example you posted earlier as a success story only proves that. You still got wiped out by the guy running out there. Same result. 

It's not the same result. One lone infantry sneaking through cant do a whole lot of damage u til being killed and having to repeat the process.

10-15 infantry spawning and respawning out of a FRU is going to destroy every soft target they can find, and furthermore, split the defenders where you are trying to fight tanks north of you while now you have a large number of infantry attacking from the south. 

If those same 10-15 guys manage to sneak through and cause havoc then hats of to them and my utmost respect. But pulling that off is quite a feat. One guy crawling in and setting up a FRU is exactly the opposite.

We keep on talking about tanks with regards to the FRU, but there are tons of soft assets that are vitally important to a solid combined arms defense that are extremely vulnerable to the placement of a stealth FRU.

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9 minutes ago, aismov said:

It's not the same result. One lone infantry sneaking through cant do a whole lot of damage u til being killed and having to repeat the process.

10-15 infantry spawning and respawning out of a FRU is going to destroy every soft target they can find, and furthermore, split the defenders where you are trying to fight tanks north of you while now you have a large number of infantry attacking from the south. 

If those same 10-15 guys manage to sneak through and cause havoc then hats of to them and my utmost respect. But pulling that off is quite a feat. One guy crawling in and setting up a FRU is exactly the opposite.

We keep on talking about tanks with regards to the FRU, but there are tons of soft assets that are vitally important to a solid combined arms defense that are extremely vulnerable to the placement of a stealth FRU.

The current design is not scalable. It takes a large amount of overhead to get things going. It’s as though CRS is designing a game for numbers they no longer have and said design breaks without said numbers. Then they wonder why they can’t keep people interested long enough to bring in more numbers. 

I had not played in over a year when I decided to grab some DLC. I played the underpopulated side and struggled to find targets compared to when I left the game. I was so bored I’ve hardly used the DLC purchase since. The current situation is hardly what I would call epic combined arms battles. The former KGW CO came in here to the forums after last campaign and dropped an absolute truth bomb. 

This game lacks action. In order to get action you need combat in the game world. Without combat in the game world people become disinterested. One guy shooting one truck trying over and over to set an FMS isn’t combat. It’s just a poor game design that stops action before it even starts. 

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4 hours ago, jwilly said:

No disagreement from me on new-CRS's viewpoint on mapping and marking, carried over from old-CRS. Old-CRS said privately that they thought they needed to do that to have any chance of competing for modern players that have no awareness that WWII soldiers didn't all have perfect communications.

What's plainly argued and there for you to see, if you wanted, is that some folks don't want FRUs because defenders shouldn't always have to set up all-directions defenses. Almost always in WWII, there were no "infiltrators", and the attack came from the front. Certainly attacking from the back wasn't the standard way of defeating a defense.

The game should work so that defenses almost always are attacked from the front, and when the attacker has a lethality advantage or superior tactics, the attack prevails that way.

the guys that attack from the rear get no tank support

they get slaughtered.

the guys attacking in the same line between a town and FB get tank support, they can attack.

 

the difference is the staying power of the guys, litterally the guys ability to stay in the zone

 

the FMS gives the guys little staying power. if it's gone so are they, it's very difficult to get a new FMS up

the INF FRU gave the guys more staying power, they were able to keep a attack going after the FRU was gone: by building more

 

 

thing is, the guys attacking from the rear have to fight tanks. in both spawn era's. they were cut in the inf FRU times and they're still getting cut with the FMS.

 

it's the front between town and FB that suffers most: the loss of staying power (ability to keep a direction under attack) has been a constant problem with the FMS. after a FMS is gone... it's exactly like loosing a FB 5 years ago: guys can't spawn anymore

 

with the inf-FRU, guys were able to keep a attack going. they had more staying power. players litterally stayed at attacks longer, because they could.

(last line is the sum of my entire year crusade against the FMS...)

Edited by major0noob

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@major0noob @minky @madrebel @david06 Thank you all for speaking up and sharing your thoughts.  I was wondering if I went crazy with all the push back from others, but I'm glad there are people who "get it" and see what I see.  

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WELCOME TO MY LAST YEAR!

...

 

 

everyone's nuts.

i said the same things others have said in game, then said them in fourms, now i'm reading them... getting to these guys is like bashing your head on a brick wall.

you see it coming, plunge into it, and there's a wall... it's always there. every plunge... just bash after bash, skull vs brick... momentum of thought, coming to a complete stop...

 

try not to spend too much time on one brick wall.

the spot with " MERLIN ! " written in face-splats is mine.

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1 hour ago, minky said:

 This game lacks action. In order to get action you need combat in the game world. Without combat in the game world people become disinterested. One guy shooting one truck trying over and over to set an FMS isn’t combat. It’s just a poor game design that stops action before it even starts. 

This. I argued for so long to get the old truck MS changed from being a literal 1 plink kill. SO many opposed it as "its already unrealistic, just ride a truck all the way in like we used to" ... uh huh. you mean, back when we all used to complain that riding trucks in for hot drops was also 1) not realistic and 2) an unsustainable way to get to battle - for a variety of reasons.

there has been a (fake) realism for the sake of (fake) realism crowd that has plagued this game's potential since inception. its really quite sad.

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Would there be a maximum limit on the inf placed FRU, or could you have 30 of them at one time? 

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use your head, think it through. what limits might make it a good feature?

no AT infantry

can't deploy further than X from AB/CP/FB/FMS

can't deploy closer than Y from enemy FB/CP/AB

can't deploy more than Z of them per AO

what else?

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1st off the defensive player in this game is always at a disadvantage why you ask cause these players have to watch either A- the map or B - wait for the xxx town called for Defense. Only advantage they don't have to travel and it goes both ways for both sides playing defense.

Now put a River in between the FB and town that is already destroyed and the 1st reports come in of its being repaired. 

Now some players want to battle these attackers with ATG cause heck the Bridge is down and no ETS are on our side yet and INF can't be either unless one has set a FMS but no one has reported any Truck sound .

So there you push try to stay hidden and you make it into a great spot where u can see across river well hidden ready to take out ETS just to get killed by an EI and after that you get report killed the EI that killed you well FMS scenario he swam what are the odds there are more pretty slim.

Now with FRU you try to push out again different direction get killed.

Another try ,get killed again by some other guy .

Try again same result .

Player goes [censored] it why even try , Bridge is down we contol our side , enemy is still trying to get Bridge up but we are holding . But I can't get an ATG or AAA to fight the hoards of planes all because of a sneaky lonely INF that set a FRU . 

Yup that's fun for the ATG or AAA players that enjoy that game play . Ruined because it's to hard to get an Attack going when the Defenders themselves really never know will there be an AO or not or am I just chasing one or 2 guys that set off EWS.

This what I wrote here is the other side of the coin . Just saying.

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1 hour ago, nc0gnet0 said:

Would there be a maximum limit on the inf placed FRU, or could you have 30 of them at one time? 

The idea is to limit the amount that can be placed by limiting the unit (the Mission Leader unit) in the spawn lists.  

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53 minutes ago, dre21 said:

1st off the defensive player in this game is always at a disadvantage

We aren't playing the same game then.  

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