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delems

Town terrain changes.

33 posts in this topic

I like how towns are getting edits to them (Gedinne, Hasterie etc).

But I see issues: first, way too many buildings are stacked on top of each other right next to CPs.  Buildings need to be spaced more apart and pushed out of town more.

Second, move the CPs a bit further away from the SP.

Having 10 buildings surrounding a CP does no good imo, spread those bldgs out - push them further out of towns.  And don't put buildings so close to each other.

Edited by delems
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Just now, delems said:

I like how towns are getting edits to them (Gedinne, Hasterie etc).

But I see issues: first, way to many buildings are stacked on top of each other right next to CPs.  Buildings need to be spaced more apart and pushed out of town more.

Second, move the CPs a but further away from the SP.

Having 10 buildings surrounding a CP does no good imo, spread those blogs out - push them further out of towns.  And don't put buildings so close to each other.

Just to promote some brain storming here.

What are you going to do if those exposed CPs are cut by tanks?

One of the reasons CPs are placed close to buildings is because it would otherwise be impossible to get to them if there is a tank anywhere in the vicinity.

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If the attacker has the CP cut by close tanks, then you should prolly lose that CP, yes?

Kinda silly defender can jump on to CP from SP?

Plus, I still like the more buildings around the CP area - thus blocking lanes of fire, I just don't like them ON TOP the CP like they are now - way to close imo.

Look at haybes-virex CP - those buildings are on top of CP/SP practically  - push them out a bit; not have them right next to CP.

Look at the St Ricqu-Frev CP area layout... CP is a bit aways from SP, there is cover - but nothing stacked on top of each other.

Edited by delems
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The Links in Brussels are still awful @Merlin51.  And please don't give me a spiel justifying why everything is perfect as is. 

 

If you want to move from Mechelen (NE of Brux) to Leuven (E of Brux), you need to move from Mechelen to Brux SE (wtf), then Brux NE, then Leuven.  

 

Even though Waterloo is on the SE side, it's link CP is on the SW side of Brux.

 

All those weird little discrepancies make for some very awkward flag placement and fallbacks as one side pushes through Brussels and the surrounding area.  It's a huge headache.  

Edited by Capco
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*** The Links in Brussels are still awful @Merlin51.

Agree, the links to both Antwerp and Brux are atrocious - they make no sense at all.

Look which towns are NW, NE, SE and SW .. then link appropriately.

Edited by delems
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1 hour ago, delems said:

If the attacker has the CP cut by close tanks, then you should prolly lose that CP, yes?

Kinda silly defender can jump on to CP from SP?

I don't disagree that the depot should be placed farther away from the CP. I don't mind if it is close every now and then... nice change.

But you simply can't have exposed CPs as it will be impossible to attack and/or defend. Especially now with the 6-ft high bushes and general jungle canopy that surrounds towns it is nigh impossible to engage a tank that is inside town from outside of town without going to point blank range. IMHO CPs should be a place where infantry fight it out with few avenues of advance for tanks. But yes, agree that CPs and depots should be spaced out a bit.

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41 minutes ago, aismov said:

I don't disagree that the depot should be placed farther away from the CP. I don't mind if it is close every now and then... nice change.

But you simply can't have exposed CPs as it will be impossible to attack and/or defend. Especially now with the 6-ft high bushes and general jungle canopy that surrounds towns it is nigh impossible to engage a tank that is inside town from outside of town without going to point blank range. IMHO CPs should be a place where infantry fight it out with few avenues of advance for tanks. But yes, agree that CPs and depots should be spaced out a bit.

Sure you can have exposed CPs, AND closed in CPs.  There should be differences.

 

The trick is to give it the feel of the real towns circa 1940, AND design which ones are inf friendly vs. camp friendly predicated on how easy one link to another should be in one direction or another, and what the 'tactical puzzle' of each town should be, which should be as unique as possible.

 

What a horrible mistake to make the towns play all the same and have the same rote tactical solution to each capture and defense.

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58 minutes ago, aismov said:

I don't disagree that the depot should be placed farther away from the CP. I don't mind if it is close every now and then... nice change.

But you simply can't have exposed CPs as it will be impossible to attack and/or defend. Especially now with the 6-ft high bushes and general jungle canopy that surrounds towns it is nigh impossible to engage a tank that is inside town from outside of town without going to point blank range. IMHO CPs should be a place where infantry fight it out with few avenues of advance for tanks. But yes, agree that CPs and depots should be spaced out a bit.

Way to much alleviation of tanks by way of various mechanics IMO. Tanks have a right to be feared. Trying to blunt their effectiveness in various ways over the years has hurt the game IMO.

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2 minutes ago, madrebel said:

Way to much alleviation of tanks by way of various mechanics IMO. Tanks have a right to be feared. Trying to blunt their effectiveness in various ways over the years has hurt the game IMO.

Agree. But tanks should also fear ATGs and other tanks engaging them at range. Which currently with over-tall bushes and massive treelines means an exposed CP/depot will be nothing more than a camp fest by tanks.

2 minutes ago, madrebel said:

Way to much alleviation of tanks by way of various mechanics IMO. Tanks have a right to be feared. Trying to blunt their effectiveness in various ways over the years has hurt the game IMO.

Agree. But tanks should also fear ATGs and other tanks engaging them at range. Which currently with over-tall bushes and massive treelines means an exposed CP/depot will be nothing more than a camp fest by tanks.

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Narrow streets tends to make a town more infantry friendly.

Older European towns in 1940 tended to have very narrow streets. Wider streets were found only in parts of towns and cities that were destroyed in WWI; in the context of ceremonial boulevards and plazas, mostly related to war memorials; and where especially main roads passed right through the town or city.

Quote

...what the 'tactical puzzle' of each town should be, which should be as unique as possible.

What a horrible mistake to make the towns play all the same and have the same rote tactical solution to each capture and defense.

Definitely there should be towns in Europe where tanks fear to enter because they can't see far enough...and cities where tanks are tactically powerful.

Edited by jwilly
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I’d like to see various layout styles tried in intermissions, with feedback given and reviewed as to which styles create the best gameplay 

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15 hours ago, Capco said:

Even though Waterloo is on the SE side, it's link CP is on the SW side of Brux.

The road connecting it is in the SW side

 

15 hours ago, Capco said:

If you want to move from Mechelen (NE of Brux) to Leuven (E of Brux), you need to move from Mechelen to Brux SE (wtf), then Brux NE, then Leuven.

That is where they put the thing 17 years ago.
I didn't build it, i just divided it up working with what is there.
By hand, in a hex editor and notepad++, because the cells are full, i nearly could not get the interconnecting depots in.
And if the stuff does not jive per the strat server rule set, your town magically surrenders.

I maybe, might, be able to do something with mechelen, IF i can find somethings to delete that no one will miss

15 hours ago, Capco said:

And please don't give me a spiel justifying why everything is perfect as is.

Or, you can continue to make snide comments, and i can just pack it up and go home and not spend literally 1000's of hours on this, for free
and you can do it instead?

 

Edited by Merlin51
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Hey Mr 51, just out of curiosity, somewhere I read new terrain editor otw. Is it true? Is it simplified, could maybe players learn? Would be fantastic if they could. But of course understandable if its still a bit much for casual use.

Edited by blggles

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15 hours ago, delems said:

way too many buildings are stacked on top of each other right next to CPs.  Buildings need to be spaced more apart and pushed out of town more.

 

15 hours ago, delems said:

 And don't put buildings so close to each other.

You cant drive tanks freely everyplace, not every town was open rural sprawl, especially when the surrounding area is marsh
Have to break out the bombs and infantry for those areas. (Lack of proper march textured tiles not withstanding)

uknKsIZ.png

5F6KqL2.png

But to say everything is like that?
You will run here for days, and you may want to bring a boat to cross the water
Pgkouuf.png

or here
BQlu6jk.png

Is that a depot i spy way way far away by the water?
4XqV9WO.png

zBoAlux.png

Spread out? This isnt even a town, it's a ferry launch and railhead
l85GWf2.png

Busy little crossroads (by the way, those building groups, they dont come apart, unless you'd like to come model a few hundred that will)
o9yyXiM.png

small dutch town surrounded by marsh (terrain texture not withstanding, we presently do not have the properly textured tiles yet. its a lot of art work)
93S5Oqr.png

This little guy is all spread out
YtUnogg.png

THat's still town way down there
3ZCTF1Y.png

Now something big
THis is an AB, ONE AB
5XeRuHI.png

It's way over there past those trees
6eBEzXF.png

Little town on a cross roads
AQpGF94.png

X2kGBaq.png

Rural village
L8szLM9.png

Another one
q5Whn0s.png

Farming village
MuatzT9.png

Someplace you will learn the name of later
That is still it in the background
Zsaycdf.png

Kicu6m0.png

A famous, but rural french village
plytaOs.png

A cemetery for our fallen friends at a famous place (yes, in edit environment i still have black normal maps)
l6fvFWf.png

Pretty sure this is spread out?
RtGVXM8.png

Farm commune 
2veBwfG.png

Did you look at more than 1 town?
u0Z0SAc.png

Some place special in france in 1940, just need a lighthouse model
kGDHsCn.png

Town does not seem stacked up
Z4PQeSA.png

kc9bvrT.png

Busy little place, somewhere south
nMk2EWo.png

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15 minutes ago, blggles said:

Hey Mr 51, just out of curiosity, somewhere I read new terrain editor otw. Is it true? Is it simplified, could maybe players learn? Would be fantastic if they could. But of course understandable if its still a bit much for casual use.

We are working on one, but nothing really to show just yet.
The original editor was created a long long time ago, and any documentation for it was long lost into the ether.
The programmer working on a new one has had to work on it nearly blind playing reverse engineer and working with the best documentation
that we could write now, 18 years later, on the functionality etc required so he can have some kind of understanding of what it is actually
supposed to do (and some times not do)

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4 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

I maybe, might, be able to do something with mechelen, IF i can find somethings to delete that no one will miss

I’m not sure I follow how the divvying up of these towns is done. 

 

Iirc, the Mechelen CP is south of the east road that comes into Brussels from Leuven.  That road seems to be your dividing line between NE and SE.

 

Is there anything holding you back from putting the Mechelen CP as part of Brussels NE, without moving the CP buildings? Or is there some kind of proximity requirement in the code?

 

If you are just putting CPs in control of the nearest AB when you don’t have to, I’d MUCH rather you put the Waterloo CP under the control of Brux SE and the Mechelen CP under control of Brux NE.

 

EDIT:  Just looked at Brussels on the map.  I see the Waterloo CP is right next to the SW AB lol.  I see now that it has to move if I want my wishes to come true.  

 

Think of it this way.  If you drew an imaginary line across the map that cut Brussels into eastern and western halves, any connecting TOWN that is east of that dividing line should have their link in Brussels NE or Brussels SE (and vice versa).  There are four towns east of that dividing line (Mechelen, Leuven, Wavre, and Waterloo) and three towns west of it (Dendermond, Aalst, and Halle).  

 

Do you have MOIC experience Merlin?

Edited by Capco

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Woot for concrete pillboxes out of town along the main roads. Finally these can be useful 

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Hey Merlin: thx for all the work, explanations and the guided tour of town samples above. Like the cemetery.  S! 

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I don't recall ever seeing the rotunda/gazebo before. Is that new? I have an interest in learning about town modeling if you ever open it up to more volunteers. I'm not the artistic type but if the structures (or structure groups) are available for placement I would be interested in learning how its done. 

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Don't get me wrong.  I love all the terrain in general!

And very much looking forward to the N and S expansion.

One of the reasons I'm still playing nearly every day and have 2 subs.

Maybe I just got unlucky in picking some towns like Haybes and Gedinne.  Buildings shouldn't be in front (haybes-virex CP) of the door by 1m imo.

So keep up the great work - just trying to suggest improvements.

 

Regarding links to Antwerp and Brux, pretty sure I've outlined those somewhere else, but as cap says - divide the town with line, then look where adjacent towns lie and link to that section.

Antwerp N: Wals, Zand, Kam;  Antwerp C: Schilde;  Antwerp S: St Nik, temse, Boom, Lier

Brux NE: Mech, Leuven;  Brux SE: Wavre, Waterloo;  Brux SW: Halle;  Brux NW: Aalst Temse

 

PS don't forget these ideas:

1) Don't need the word 'district' on Antwerp S and Center names, too long.

2) The name 'Antwerp Center' is way to far S of the actual town, that label needs to be moved up.

3) S central depot and Antwerp district are in the OTHER sides town?  Swap their locations.

4) Abbreviate all the directions on Brux town names so not so long; Brussels NE, etc...

Also, LONDON is all caps?

Edited by delems

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On the LONDON question, I'm assuming all capitals..... are capitalized.

 

Pretty typical realworld map standard.

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Simply put..in a real open war environment, there is no way a pattieserie for example would be allowed to stay next door to an army spawn point (any place with a strategic component).

There is ZERO reason to place buildings so close that infantry are ALLOWED to jump from the spawn to the cp roof. We have the opportunity to remove this ridiculous practice now.

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11 hours ago, Capco said:

Is there anything holding you back from putting the Mechelen CP as part of Brussels NE, without moving the CP buildings? Or is there some kind of proximity requirement in the code?

They are part of the EWS and such, part of it is anyways.
So, lets say i park 10 guys at it.
You get info that heavy INF EWS is someplace in NE, but the guys are really south.

And because the NE owns that depot, and the Depot owns the EWS triggering assets around it, you could possibly have a hole in the SE
EWS, so no warning in the south that 10 guys are hanging out at that depot.

 

11 hours ago, Capco said:

Iirc, the Mechelen CP is south of the east road that comes into Brussels from Leuven.  That road seems to be your dividing line between NE and SE.

It is physically, but i did not build the town, that was the location it was originally created in.
Honestly i do not know why as that is not the road to mechelen.

11 hours ago, Capco said:

I’m not sure I follow how the divvying up of these towns is done. 

In a really simplified version?
Catalog every asset (object that is part of strat) in the town, and its location as well as what owns it
which winds up a big color coded mess on a really big screenshot of the city from top down.
(this is kind of simplified, cause you are also logging object types, bit flags etc)

There is little logic in it, at the time there did not need to be.
A depot on the west side is in possession of AI guns and EWS triggers on the west side, etc.

Now visually divide the town into sectors
and begin re organizing the assets so that all things in a sector belong to a facility within that sector and not 1200 meters across the other side of town
This is still just on digital scratch paper.
You're trying to get a visual that makes sense as best as possible, with someone else's existing design.
All pieces have supply so they dont self maroon, all have proper EWS coverage and functioning AI

Once you think you have that part done (Think because you will guaranteed find something that does not work like it seemed on paper)
you assemble your list of assets and bit flag changes etc into text lists

One list for each new CP (or town since everyone calls depots a CP)

No, before you get too far, you have to make a trip into 3d land and place the CP object for each location.
Now when the cell is full, you have to search out some sacrificial lambs, small grass cluster, a random apple tree, sometimes get lucky and find an object no longer user in game.
Once you got at least 4 open places, you can set down the CP objects, which will create an empty data file for them.
And then you leave 3d land for a while.

Now you take those 4 lists of objects and data, and you take the 4 new CP data files
and you start assembling the objects, in the proper data structure and entering in the bit flag changes that you noted etc.
Using the original data file as a guide (but you dont touch the original, or if something goes bad you cant go back)
Then, when you think it is assembled right on that end, which is a long time later, you park the original away safely and put your 4 new ones in
and go back into 3d land and make sure that ever single object in each of the 4 new sectors registers properly as being a valid member of strat.
There will undoubtedly be things to fix as you are doing this by hand with nothing to help or alert you of an error or conflict.

But once you get that all hashed out, then you rebuild the supply links.

Now you have to look for a few more sacrifices
You need object space for inter connecting depots, but since they are also buildings, sometimes you get lucky and trade a building for a building.

When that is all done and you think it seems like it should be OK, you actually compile the terrain, then load it onto an actual server
to make sure it does not flat out fail strat.
If it does, you have to decipher the error logs and figure out what to correct.
When it passes strat, you can then spawn a client into the gameworld and test it out.
At which point you will ultimately find there are a lot of things that need correcting, EWS coverage is lopsided or has gaps
or something works fine mechanically but simply does not make logical sense, or something simply needs to be moved and you have to figure
out how to make the space with out leaving a big hole someplace etc.

And then you start again how ever many times needed until it works.

none of the above pertains to simply making an actual town in sectors from the very beginning

Edited by Merlin51
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7 hours ago, Kilemall said:

On the LONDON question, I'm assuming all capitals..... are capitalized.

No, :)
They are only placeholders, no footprints yet
When the towns get footprints etc, the placeholders will get deleted and the markers moved someplace that makes logical sense with the town footprint
and have normal letters.

They are currently just at the towns published GPS coordinates.

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