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XOOM

LMG Solution Planned

347 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, david06 said:

I think it's important to note that in a real milsim like Arma 3 you can move while firing with a LMG. SMGs are dramatically more accurate than they are in this game, and rifles sway a fraction as much.

 

No offense; I'm a veteran ARMA 3 player, and this simply is not true in the slightest. The idea of using an LMG in ARMA 3 the way it is used in WWIIOL is completely bonkers. You cannot use an LMG the way it is used in WWIIOL. I'm a fan of ARMA 3 mods like Iron Front, and I'm sorry, but what you're saying simply is not true at all.

And even if it *were* true (it is not), so what? I could just point to another game that does it better, like Post Scriptum. Incidentally, I have hundreds of hours of playtime in both ARMA 3 and PS (I've played PS since the first beta releases last year). In terms of WWII realism, PS is the best (despite unrealistically low engagement ranges and decreased vis distance due to graphics); ARMA 3 has far more realistic vis distances and engagement ranges, but WWII mods like Iron Front are still less realistic and polished than what PS has. WWIIOL is by far the least realistic of the three, *but* it has realistic engagement ranges and vis distances as well as a huge variety of AFVs and planes (which no ARMA 3 mod has), so WWIIOL still stands alone in terms of what's on offer (and nevermind the fact that you're going to be playing against dumb bots in ARMA 3).

For the record, by comparison to, say, Iron Front for ARMA 3, WWIIOL's weapons are like futuristic sniper rifles that fire smart bullets. Whether it's SMGs, LMGs, or rifles, the dispersion of these weapons in WWIIOL is FAR tighter and less realistic than in PS or ARMA 3. I already said that the MG-34 and MG-42 have much higher dispersion in PS because that's actually the *point* (better suppression), and it's MUCH more difficult to kill enemies at distance with those weapons. In terms of SMGs, I have no idea what you're smoking; again WWIIOL SMGs fire smart, AI-guided bullets compared to anything in ARMA 3.

If anyone doubts what I'm saying, just watch some video of Iron Front gameplay and see how clunky and inaccurate the weapons are. Even the modern weapons in the base game are far more difficult to use accurately (much steeper learning curve than WWIIOL).

EDIT:
Here's a video illustrating the weapon sway in the most popular ARMA 3 WWII mod. Compare to our vice-grip for all rifles. See just how much harder it is to aim, and then realize that this video doesn't even do it justice. Trust me, it is MUCH easier to aim and fire accurately in WWIIOL.

 

Hopefully, this all changes once we get the small arms audit.

3 hours ago, david06 said:

The real problem is that most infantry combat in WW2online is hipfiring from five meters away. Doing well here revolves more around your ability to exploit lag and audio than aiming or teamwork. People here are fine with this "point-blank bullet hose" arcade gameplay CRS is just tweaking a weapon so one side doesn't have a better bullet hose than the other.

 

I've been playing this game for almost 20 years, 99% of the time with a vanilla, unscoped bolt action rifle, and what you're saying is only partially true. By the time the infantry combat in WWIIOL devolves to the warpy-5-meter-spray-n-pray you're talking about, it means that one side's defense has already crumbled, they're on the ropes, and now it's just a question of whether or not the attackers can successfully camp the AB.

You're describing the brief endgame, whereas the majority of the battle is taking place on the periphery of the town, or across destroyed bridges, etc etc.

I will fully agree, WWIIOL does close-quarters-combat terribly. It's utterly unrealistic and horrible. Worst part of the game by far, and *especially* bad compared to ARMA 3 or PS. Yes, that part of the game is an utter fail and always has been. I am NOT fine with that silly arcade gameplay. I've posted ideas on how to fix it for years; the only viable solution I see is area-based capture and proximity-based disabling of spawn points (so a certain threshold of enemies within a certain range of your spawn point temporarily disables spawning). PS does this flawlessly.

Unfortunately, the cold, hard reality is that this horrible type of gameplay will probably not be fixed any time soon; the toxic playerbase likes camping spawnpoints (and, unbelievably, many of them seem to *like* being camped). As long as players can ridiculously spawn right on top of the enemy, and vice-versa, the 5-meter-warp-fest-engagement is here to stay.

 

 

Edited by xanthus
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10 minutes ago, xanthus said:

 

No offense; I'm a veteran ARMA 3 player, and this simply is not true in the slightest. The idea of using an LMG in ARMA 3 the way it is used in WWIIOL is completely bonkers. You cannot use an LMG the way it is used in WWIIOL. I'm a fan of ARMA 3 mods like Iron Front, and I'm sorry, but what you're saying simply is not true at all.

And even if it *were* true (it is not), so what? I could just point to another game that does it better, like Post Scriptum. Incidentally, I have hundreds of hours of playtime in both ARMA 3 and PS (I've played PS since the first beta releases last year). In terms of WWII realism, PS is the best (despite unrealistically low engagement ranges and decreased vis distance due to graphics); ARMA 3 has far more realistic vis distances and engagement ranges, but WWII mods like Iron Front are still less realistic and polished than what PS has. WWIIOL is by far the least realistic of the three, *but* it has realistic engagement ranges and vis distances as well as a huge variety of AFVs and planes (which no ARMA 3 mod has), so WWIIOL still stands alone in terms of what's on offer (and nevermind the fact that you're going to be playing against dumb bots in ARMA 3).

For the record, by comparison to, say, Iron Front for ARMA 3, WWIIOL's weapons are like futuristic sniper rifles that fire smart bullets. Whether it's SMGs, LMGs, or rifles, the dispersion of these weapons in WWIIOL is FAR tighter and less realistic than in PS or ARMA 3. I already said that the MG-34 and MG-42 have much higher dispersion in PS because that's actually the *point* (better suppression), and it's MUCH more difficult to kill enemies at distance with those weapons. In terms of SMGs, I have no idea what you're smoking; again WWIIOL SMGs fire smart, AI-guided bullets compared to anything in ARMA 3.

If anyone doubts what I'm saying, just watch some video of Iron Front gameplay and see how clunky and inaccurate the weapons are. Even the modern weapons in the base game are far more difficult to use accurately (much steeper learning curve than WWIIOL).

 

Hopefully, this all changes once we get the small arms audit.

thx. finally a realistic assessment of the reality of other games as well as real reality - including why WIIOL still stands alone. in the end its the players, not the weapons, and we just need more players. 

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Please keep the Topic on WWiiOnline, other games do not apply, cheers

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Assess, Adjust, Conquer

is better than

Assume, Complain, Quit.

imo

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Old friend, as SCKING said above XOOM is not omnipotent. I can say he is versatile and learning.

Hatch and Scotsman are digging into the DMs along with a lot of other things. Everything takes time and the

audit on damage models is going to take Hatch, Scotsman, likely some coder time as well as possibly BMBM time.

Very little comes easy as to fixing stuff. 

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2 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

Old friend, as SCKING said above XOOM is not omnipotent. I can say he is versatile and learning.

Hatch and Scotsman are digging into the DMs along with a lot of other things. Everything takes time and the

audit on damage models is going to take Hatch, Scotsman, likely some coder time as well as possibly Bmbm time.

Very little comes easy as to fixing stuff. 

Just saying. Limited manpower, volunteers, etc. aside it's interesting to see which changes are brought forth in a hurry while others addressed with info of a lengthy audit happening with who-knows-what implementation results in which amount of time.

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3 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Just saying. Limited manpower, volunteers, etc. aside it's interesting to see which changes are brought forth in a hurry while others addressed with info of a lengthy audit happening with who-knows-what implementation results in which amount of time.

The audits have 100s of lines of code to look at and figure out which it controls.

Everything being done now is being documented to make future coders able to decipher easier. Some changes don't require coding at all

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A hurry? Stuff gets fixed as the folks that can fix get time to fix. Now I'll give a little example. I'm not a coder, not a modeler nor artist. I don't have the ability nor skill set to create content. I dearly love taking stuff apart to see what makes it work though.

Awhile back the tree trunk normal maps got broken. If you had normal maps on well you had black tree trunks. Looked pretty bad but compared to the list of other broke things not a priority but it was something that due to me my wanderings around the insides of games over the years I figured out how to fix. So I fixed it. Now I can't fix the spitfires or havoc/db7/he111 etc damage models but that tree trunk normal map I could fix so it got added to a patch. Not because it was priority but simply because I happened to know how.

So when someone not involved with fixing the seriously hard to fix stuff happens on a fix for anything, well yes that will be added.

 

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Since the taste of the month is on restrictions, maybe we could ask allied to restrict their time hanging in forums and invite them for something more productive like log and play in campaign instead?

Imagine now, they would overpop all day  

After all they are the first to whine that they are always underpop. 

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Wait a second, why were my posts deleted???

I took the time to write an essay (even providing video evidence) that you cannot run while firing an LMG, that SMGs are much less accurate, and that rifle sway is MUCH, MUCH worse in ARMA 3, and my post gets deleted?

Why?

 

I took the time to contribute what I know (refuting inaccurate claims made about ARMA 3 relative to this game), and my posts get deleted. You have to be F-ing kidding me.

Veteran players sh*tting on this game don't get their posts deleted, but I get singled out??? Even though I'm defending this game and CRS??? Why? 5,000+ posts, and AFAIK, that's the first time anything I've ever posted here got deleted without an explanation.

 

I was on the fence and promised to come back, and then I get singled out, and my opinion gets deleted???

I appreciate that this is a private forum, private company, etc. You don't owe me anything, or an explanation. But after all the good will and the exchange with XOOM, this is how I get treated?? My posts get deleted without any explanation? Really?

 

 

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RPAT is directed to tanks
different situation...
The changes seem realistic, but bad for those who like the weapon.
I think it will be another weapon left over in the spawn list (like 88mm).

(I do not like LMG)

S!

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This is where we nudge the thread back on topic (LMG) - any other issues need to find a new home in other threads. 

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Q: is this where CRS says it will happen SOON (tm)(c)(ca)(r)(ul)(pat pend)?

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1 hour ago, imded said:

Q: is this where CRS says it will happen SOON (tm)(c)(ca)(r)(ul)(pat pend)?

LOL

Seeing the videos from CRS, I think this time "soon" might be intermission to let guys experience it prior to the next map. We shall find out soon enough. :) dyswidt?

 

S! Ian

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5 hours ago, gt3076r said:

Just saying. Limited manpower, volunteers, etc. aside it's interesting to see which changes are brought forth in a hurry while others addressed with info of a lengthy audit happening with who-knows-what implementation results in which amount of time.

Actually, this was not brought about in a hurry.
It has been a topic of various discussions for more than a year.

Xoom has been learning more about the internals of the game itself and in learning that
this was something he was able to work on and independently offer up a resolution, much like OldZeke learned some stuff on his own and was able to locate the normal maps issue and offer a solution independent of other work flow.

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This is worrying me, I keep finding myself agreeing with Merlin51, Aismov, and Jwilly........ I need to find a thread about too few panzers and too many Matties to get my mojo running properly once more!

Edited by ian77
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19 minutes ago, ian77 said:

This is worrying me, I keep finding myself agreeing with Merlin51

I promise, i will never tell a sole

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8 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

I promise, i will never tell a sole

soul*

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15 hours ago, xanthus said:

 

No offense; I'm a veteran ARMA 3 player, and this simply is not true in the slightest. The idea of using an LMG in ARMA 3 the way it is used in WWIIOL is completely bonkers. You cannot use an LMG the way it is used in WWIIOL. I'm a fan of ARMA 3 mods like Iron Front, and I'm sorry, but what you're saying simply is not true at all.

And even if it *were* true (it is not), so what? I could just point to another game that does it better, like Post Scriptum. Incidentally, I have hundreds of hours of playtime in both ARMA 3 and PS (I've played PS since the first beta releases last year). In terms of WWII realism, PS is the best (despite unrealistically low engagement ranges and decreased vis distance due to graphics); ARMA 3 has far more realistic vis distances and engagement ranges, but WWII mods like Iron Front are still less realistic and polished than what PS has. WWIIOL is by far the least realistic of the three, *but* it has realistic engagement ranges and vis distances as well as a huge variety of AFVs and planes (which no ARMA 3 mod has), so WWIIOL still stands alone in terms of what's on offer (and nevermind the fact that you're going to be playing against dumb bots in ARMA 3).

For the record, by comparison to, say, Iron Front for ARMA 3, WWIIOL's weapons are like futuristic sniper rifles that fire smart bullets. Whether it's SMGs, LMGs, or rifles, the dispersion of these weapons in WWIIOL is FAR tighter and less realistic than in PS or ARMA 3. I already said that the MG-34 and MG-42 have much higher dispersion in PS because that's actually the *point* (better suppression), and it's MUCH more difficult to kill enemies at distance with those weapons. In terms of SMGs, I have no idea what you're smoking; again WWIIOL SMGs fire smart, AI-guided bullets compared to anything in ARMA 3.

If anyone doubts what I'm saying, just watch some video of Iron Front gameplay and see how clunky and inaccurate the weapons are. Even the modern weapons in the base game are far more difficult to use accurately (much steeper learning curve than WWIIOL).

EDIT:
Here's a video illustrating the weapon sway in the most popular ARMA 3 WWII mod. Compare to our vice-grip for all rifles. See just how much harder it is to aim, and then realize that this video doesn't even do it justice. Trust me, it is MUCH easier to aim and fire accurately in WWIIOL.

 

Hopefully, this all changes once we get the small arms audit.

 

I've been playing this game for almost 20 years, 99% of the time with a vanilla, unscoped bolt action rifle, and what you're saying is only partially true. By the time the infantry combat in WWIIOL devolves to the warpy-5-meter-spray-n-pray you're talking about, it means that one side's defense has already crumbled, they're on the ropes, and now it's just a question of whether or not the attackers can successfully camp the AB.

You're describing the brief endgame, whereas the majority of the battle is taking place on the periphery of the town, or across destroyed bridges, etc etc.

I will fully agree, WWIIOL does close-quarters-combat terribly. It's utterly unrealistic and horrible. Worst part of the game by far, and *especially* bad compared to ARMA 3 or PS. Yes, that part of the game is an utter fail and always has been. I am NOT fine with that silly arcade gameplay. I've posted ideas on how to fix it for years; the only viable solution I see is area-based capture and proximity-based disabling of spawn points (so a certain threshold of enemies within a certain range of your spawn point temporarily disables spawning). PS does this flawlessly.

Unfortunately, the cold, hard reality is that this horrible type of gameplay will probably not be fixed any time soon; the toxic playerbase likes camping spawnpoints (and, unbelievably, many of them seem to *like* being camped). As long as players can ridiculously spawn right on top of the enemy, and vice-versa, the 5-meter-warp-fest-engagement is here to stay.

 

 

Spot on. This should be the future of WW2OL online. 

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I don't really care about Lmg status before or after change. I both live with it and suffer it.

What this game badly needs are NUMBERS.

If in a month after this is implemented we have +XX new players then  Great Job RATs!!! If it goes the other way round then damm it 

With such a low population any change that one side  may "feel" as unfair is at least dangerous.

Problem is that we, players will never now if in the end the change was for better or for worse in terms of players base.

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CRS, one thing you are forgetting with the MG34 is that is can be set to semi-automatic, to fire 1 round per pull of the trigger.

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It saddens me just how many people see the other side as not only the enemy in game but their enemy in life, I wish more people would realise that we are one big community of WWIIOL fans.

If you've never tried the other side for at least a campaign, please do, not only will you see that the grass isn't greener over there but the players are human too!

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21 hours ago, gt3076r said:

Just saying. Limited manpower, volunteers, etc. aside it's interesting to see which changes are brought forth in a hurry while others addressed with info of a lengthy audit happening with who-knows-what implementation results in which amount of time.

As someone that was a part of the WWIIOL volunteer team for over a year (had to stop because IRL time constraints), I can tell you that your assumption that this LMG fix has been "brought out in a hurry" is completely and totally false. 

Merlin's quote I'm posting below is the truth, and it should say something positive that CRS has spent this much time on something attempting to get it right conceptually while also trying to figure out what solutions are actually viable given the code and the team's understanding of it. A lot of careful thought has been invested into this. Agree or disagree with the solution proposed, but please don't assume some inherent side-bias priority based on literally no evidence.

15 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Actually, this was not brought about in a hurry.
It has been a topic of various discussions for more than a year.

 

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5 hours ago, fallsjager said:

CRS, one thing you are forgetting with the MG34 is that is can be set to semi-automatic, to fire 1 round per pull of the trigger.

Selective fire capability for all firearms that have it IRL would be nice.  

Edited by Capco
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