matamor

Save the sapper!

20 posts in this topic

To hell with restrictions on the LMG ; let's talk about additions now.

Let's talk about the best infantry unit in game, the sapper.

I propose to give him back his 4 HEATS satchels round and his rifle.

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I know where you are coming from (the March of the Matildas, Shermageddon, etc.), but I really think the sapper is in a good spot where it is.  Giving them a rifle makes the sapper too much of an all-purpose unit.  All AT capable infantry (ATR, Zooks/Schreks, and Sappers) carry pistols, not rifles or SMGs.  That makes sense and is good gameplay balance to boot.  

 

You did a good job getting CRS to bring the sapper back in some form.  But where we are now is good imo.  Best argument you have is increasing the HEAT from 2 to 4, but idk if it's needed.  

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I’d rather see deeper changes that encourage the ATG gun line/ambush back to life 

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The sapper is debatably realistic as it is in its current form. Other than creating a fear of built up areas for armour, it is rather unrealistic to have sappers running through bush lines hunting tanks with simple heat charges that are not modelled on any weapon in particular as far as I am aware. I would personally remove them and replace them with historical AT weapons (early AT grenades, sticky bombs, and finally magnetic mines)

Ideally infantry could make use of ad hoc anti-tank methods in build up areas but that is going to be a future development. 

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1 hour ago, Silky said:

I’d rather see deeper changes that encourage the ATG gun line/ambush back to life 

IMO that died with the AO/DO. It really killed field battles and ambushes.

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@jwillyis the one to ask on this topic. Since reading his posts on the subject I’ve dived into it myself quite a bit more (infantry AT methods other than ATRs and RPGs) 

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1. The British, French and Americans had no weapon like the "HEAT sapper charge", through WWII. They did have HE charges, of course, and HEAT RGs starting at various times.

2. The British HEAT RG was issued and extensively used from the get-go. Call it T0. Because there was no time fuze, it had to be fired from a moderate distance for the gunner to survive. 

3. The French HEAT RG wasn't issued yet in May 1940 but 150,000 were in Army warehouses with another 150,000 on order, it was planned to be issued in July 1940, some were used near the end of French combat activities, and more were used later in the war. Call it T0.5. It probably had a similar gunner risk. 

4. The German fielded their first HEAT RG just in time for Crete in May 1941. That's T1. Historically this first weapon was used only by the Fallshirmjaegers, but it's the one that CRS has modeled for the Heer. (Historically this first weapon was weak and unreliable. The Heer didn't have a HEAT RG until February 1942; that one was reliable but still weak. A design with penetration comparable to the British and French designs was finally developed and fielded in November 1942, and the Fallshirmjaeger-specific design was scrapped.)

4. The Germans had an adhesive-attached HEAT charge "HHL 1", maybe in late 1940 but possibly not until early 1941, with moderate penetration. Call that T0.5 or T1. It was not widely used because the Germans didn't do much close-AT-defense in that period, but photos and collection-examples exist. The adhesive attachment was not effective on surfaces that were dirty, oily, wet, or cold. That's pretty much all the possible states of a tank in the field. So, the weapon had to be stuck to the flat top deck of a stationary tank, or it would fall off.

panzerhandmine005.jpgpanzerhandminedoorsnede.jpgpanzerhandmine007.jpg

The "HHL 3" magnetic-attached HEAT charge that was the basis for the game's current "HEAT sapper charge" was first fielded in late 1942. Call it T2.5. Combat photos and collection-examples exist. It was very effective if you survived getting it placed.

HHD.jpgH3kgH3_5kg.jpghafthohlladung6tn.jpg

There also was a later "HHL 3.5" (right in the second photo above) with the design evolved to use a panzerfaust warhead instead of a unique design. It otherwise had equivalent performance and function.

The pull-fuzes started at 4.5 seconds, but were switched to 7.5 seconds, I think in 1944, because users didn't have enough time to get to a safe distance.

As close as I can tell, no "HHL 2" weapon was ever fielded by the Heer.

The Luftwaffe did design an intermediate version, but I don't know that it was fielded. It had an effective magnetic attachment, but a poor HEAT design like the HHL 1.

panzerhandminen3late194116mk.jpgpanzerhandmine3haft1.jpg

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My favorite future infantry AT weapon, readily justifiable for urban close AT defense, would be a five gallon steel gas can ("jerry can" in British lingo), able to be obtained from a friendly truck. No other weapon use while you have it. Must be placed on the engine deck of a tank...no other placement works...so a lift-and-push animation would be needed. Starts a fire, presumably after a bullet or two are fired through it and someone tosses their Zippo at the escaping gas. Good likelihood of killing the tank. Very fast ATP use by the soldier carrying the gas can, since it weighs ~ 45 pounds.

Edited by jwilly
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I would like you see INF being able to toss the HE charge in front of tanks when they drive and drive over it. The underbelly is the least armored on any Tank . And kill Tanks that way. 

It would also give the INF the chance to stay in a building and not have to expose themselves . 

 

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I would like the spotter on the ATG's be able to field a rifle when deployed, not stuck in a "hey, come shoot me" position. 

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7 hours ago, jwilly said:

My favorite future infantry AT weapon, readily justifiable for urban close AT defense, would be a five gallon steel gas can ("jerry can" in British lingo), able to be obtained from a friendly truck. No other weapon use while you have it. Must be placed on the engine deck of a tank...no other placement works...so a lift-and-push animation would be needed. Starts a fire, presumably after a bullet or two are fired through it and someone tosses their Zippo at the escaping gas. Good likelihood of killing the tank. Very fast ATP burn...the filled gas can weighs ~ 45 pounds.

Agree. From what I’ve been able to read, most tanks that were knocked out by close infantry assault used similar methods and or conventional HE charges to damage and disable, again on engine decks, viewports, and underneath the vehicle.

 

Edited by raptor34
Correction

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32 minutes ago, raptor34 said:

Agree. From what I’ve been able to read most tanks were knocked out (by close infantry assault) with similar methods or with conventional HE charges to damage and disable, again on engine decks, viewports, and underneath the vehicle.

 

wasnt until pretty late in the war that this was true iirc. 40-43.5 most tanks were knocked out by other tanks, AT guns, or arty.

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*tanks knocked out by infantry only* Sorry that was my fault, I didn’t make it clear that I was referring to tanks knocked out by close infantry assault only. Yes, absolutely, the vast majority of tanks that we destroyed or knocked out of action during the war was through AT guns and artillery. 

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Plain HE needs to be pretty heavy to break a medium tank hull bottom. Scotsman can be authoritative, but I'd guess 10 pounds or more. Charges that size were engineer territory, not a standard tactical item. The question's essentially similar to the recent discussions about aerial bombs and tanks.

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I assume that HEAT RGs will be re-introduced when half year tiers are introduced.

How about at that point, the "HEAT sapper charge" goes away as such, with the Germans (only) getting the related weapons that only they had...?

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8 hours ago, jwilly said:

I assume that HEAT RGs will be re-introduced when half year tiers are introduced.

How about at that point, the "HEAT sapper charge" goes away as such, with the Germans (only) getting the related weapons that only they had...?

Agree fully. 

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Sapper already has 2 AT charges? That's two tanks which is more than enough AT power imo. I would prefer seeing that AT power go into engineer class. Also a infantry weapon for AT/AA guns would be great.

Edited by knucks

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