david06

Attack vs. Defense

288 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, ian77 said:

Apologies to the OP, the thread has been derailed by yet another spawnlist debate.

Attacking is tough in this game. Defending is easier.

Attacking needs teamwork, leadership, morale, and numbers. Axis have this more of the time than the allies, therefore Axis win maps.

I saw Hamza trying to get an allied AO going yesterday, he used three accounts to set three frus to the AO to Lier, allies were overpop early T1, and he couldn't get anyone to join his attack. My excuse is I was in one of the spawnables on the DO.

S! ian

You left out communication and situational awareness. 

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3 hours ago, augetout said:

You have seen Bmbm's posts where he has pointed out ad nauseum that the spawnlists were NEVER properly balanced.  They may have been in your opinion

CRS's model is just as opinionated

20 axis half tracks costing 4000 of the 15000 budget, while allies 20 cost only 2000 of 17000

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4 hours ago, ian77 said:

Apologies to the OP, the thread has been derailed by yet another spawnlist debate.

Attacking is tough in this game. Defending is easier.

Attacking needs teamwork, leadership, morale, and numbers. Axis have this more of the time than the allies, therefore Axis win maps.

I saw Hamza trying to get an allied AO going yesterday, he used three accounts to set three frus to the AO to Lier, allies were overpop early T1, and he couldn't get anyone to join his attack. My excuse is I was in one of the spawnables on the DO.

S! ian

if they'd stop deleting and locking them, we could talk about them instead of derailing into a unfocused garbled mess

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41 minutes ago, madrebel said:

you're not trying to be obtuse, but you're doing a great job. "show me the math" when you know we can't as we don't see the back end. you're asking us to do the impossible while standing on your appeal to the authority of the infallible model.

That isn't polite, nor is it accurate.  Bmbm has clearly stated that:  "I'm not saying the current budget disposition is final-there may yet be tweaks..."

 

2 hours ago, BMBM said:

The cost of the optics is only applied once and yes it's included in the total cost. I fully understand that you don't like the model, particularly since you're not privy to its details, or its effects - I get that. But until someone comes up with a better model, this is it. And no, I'm not saying the current budget disposition is final - there may yet be tweaks. All I ask is try to keep this constructive and civil. 

 

I wish everyone luck in figuring out how to quantify 'combat effectiveness'.  I think it is an impossible task.  I do not believe it is possible to come up with an accurate combat effectiveness system that can account for HOW the equipment is used.  For Snipers, will it be based on the agave/nily/nkelly/tatonka crowd, who properly (I presume) sneak around, and fire from covered positions?  Or will it be based on me (for example) who spawns a sniper when an AB bunker is in trouble and we're out of SMGs and LMGs, and I'm hoping I can help clear the bunker with the sniper's pistol?  Perhaps it will be based on the new subscription folks who grab Snipers almost reflexively so that their 'spawn and stand in the spawn while shooting' theory is a bit more effective.  My humble bet is that the 'in the weeds' sniper stats are going to be wholly different than mine or the new-guy depot snipers, and any mixture of the 3 will simply dilute and nullify the perceived 'combat effectiveness' value.  How the weapon is used is going to be an important variable to control for, and I do not believe it is possible to do so accurately.  Ironically, it is one of the reasons behind the mantra I personally have been advocating for since before the game came out:  Give us historically accurate performance modeling, with historically accurate spawn ratios, and let the chips fall where they may, as any/all attempts to artificially balance gameplay will end with someone's group of players being peeved, and it may end up being very difficult to keep under control as more equipment is added.

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33 minutes ago, augetout said:

I wish everyone luck in figuring out how to quantify 'combat effectiveness'.  I think it is an impossible task.  I do not believe it is possible to come up with an accurate combat effectiveness system that can account for HOW the equipment is used.  For Snipers, will it be based on the agave/nily/nkelly/tatonka crowd, who properly (I presume) sneak around, and fire from covered positions?  Or will it be based on me (for example) who spawns a sniper when an AB bunker is in trouble and we're out of SMGs and LMGs, and I'm hoping I can help clear the bunker with the sniper's pistol?  Perhaps it will be based on the new subscription folks who grab Snipers almost reflexively so that their 'spawn and stand in the spawn while shooting' theory is a bit more effective.  My humble bet is that the 'in the weeds' sniper stats are going to be wholly different than mine or the new-guy depot snipers, and any mixture of the 3 will simply dilute and nullify the perceived 'combat effectiveness' value.  How the weapon is used is going to be an important variable to control for, and I do not believe it is possible to do 

Just sample a large enough sample of data and the differences you describe melt away. For every agave or nily on the Axis side there is likely one on the Allied side. And for every augetout on allied side, there is one on the axis. I mean CRS has tens of thousands of sorties to draw conclusions from, years of data.

I am not saying that this is what should be the main driver of the toe sheets ... just pointing out that it shouldn't be all that hard to draw some conclusions regarding a weapons effectiveness.

Edited by choad
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Attacking is a state of mind. Being passive is boring. Being on the overpop and see everyone on defense and nobody joins your special para mission waiting on the tarmac for 15 minutes after dozens of .allied asking for them to join your mission, well that hurts your stats kill / tom, is sad, so sad. 

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another set of screenshots

3 FMS, 1 is a dead AO, top is the active one 1Km out, the other on the AO is 2km away

9rn7ecT.png

the AO's are over 4 hours old...

XHcgji0.png

the state of the AO at the most active AO. the FB is surrounded by eFMS's killing trucks

e9VVOYC.png

most active FMS, 1 KM out, cut and about to be camped

SeVUYlV.png

players lost interest

vE9bgkJ.png

the only FMS left. 2km out

ToZ9xTh.png

Edited by major0noob
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while playing, i've noticed the guys defending the disparity in attacking vs defending; all play defense exclusively...

Edited by major0noob
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13 hours ago, ian77 said:

So you/CRS choose to ignore what suits you and insist that the base economic cost cannot be ignored. You can make the BEF be 40% of the deployed ground troops in WWIIOL, when they were less than 20%. You can deploy fantastical numbers of matildas, because your economic model allows it, whether or not the UK had manufactured them by T0 or not. You give allied ground troops non historically accurate doctrine SMGs and Autos, because the game is broken without them (and thank God CRS did a U-Turn on that one).

You keep saying every country has an equal budget. Presumably the French plus the British plus the Americans equals the axis budget? Just checking in case there is another typo like 4 Pnz 3s or no pak36s etc etc etc.

 

S! ian

This sounds like Axis must be spot on in the spawn lists and all spawn list issues are planted on the allied side? Axis player Ian?

Maybe CRS should go with accurate GNP and everything else that was mentioned that is ignored to try to create historical flavoured but yet fair equipment list. Me, I'm waiting for 1.36 and seeing how that effects gameplay and equipment lists and what number changes comes from that. 

There has to be a quantifiable standpoint for equipment lists and 80 years ago is pretty much the same as today. You get what you pay for. Would you pay £100,000 for an Aston Martin and the same for a Ford Mondeo? The answer is probably no! So why is the Aston so much more expensive? It's built to a much higher quality. If you put an average 80 year old behind the wheel of both, they will be driven the same way. How effective they both are depend on who uses them (completely subjective). Exactly the same way for "combat effectiveness" 

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9 hours ago, major0noob said:

20 axis half tracks costing 4000 of the 15000 budget, while allies 20 cost only 2000 of 17000

The budget you mention is legacy, you can safely disregard that, as well as your comparison. The seven digit budgets are 1:1 with a variance of 0,12%, which given apples and oranges is as good as it gets.

One might argue that the price of portage would be a better value than price of construction, IOW that any hauler would carry the same price tag. Sounds legit on the surface, but it doesn't recognize speed, durability, gear ratios, climbing ability, hauling capacity, weaponry etc - which would have to be quantified not only for haulers but for every category. And then we're into arbitrary-land, assigning values according to gut feeling. How would we value the better open sights on the Kar98 for instance? The Enfields 10-round mag? When the Allies eventually get their halftracks too - yay, and with weapons yay - their costing will rise accordingly. For now, the Germans have a unique vehicle with no Allied counterpart - that capability comes at a cost, same as other unique bits of kit.

PS. Sorry for hijacking the thread (:

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In what way does the axis benefit from the 

On 2019-03-09 at 9:39 AM, BMBM said:

speed, durability, gear ratio, climbing ability, hauling capacity, weaponry etc

of the half track,(on edit, heavy haul half track) compared to the cheap allied trucks doing the same job just as well IN GAME?

Edited by Hardlead
Clarify

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The Sdkfz 251 MG34 adds a benefit, as well as the armor protection against small arms. Its cross-country ability is also slightly better as I recall. Haven't driven it much to be honest. The Sdkfz 7 OTOH is rather bad value for money I agree, except that it's slightly harder to kill than a truck.

When the UC and M3 HT goes in, the Allies will gain the same or equal value/cost/benefit as the Germans have had for years. Both are well overdue. To balance the Sd7, the Allies should perhaps have the Quad Morris C8 instead of the Morris CDSW - which would also open the field for the as yet missing 25 pdr and the Flak 36 equivalent QF 3.7 inch AA (see https://rommelsriposte.com/2012/10/09/use-of-the-3-7-aa-gun-in-the-ground-role/).

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13 hours ago, madrebel said:

fix it or don't - i'm done arguing and supporting the game.

+1

I have hardly posted on these forums for the last few years, I sort of got involved again forumwise with the awful IMHO changes to the spawnlists.

It now seems to be 99% of the player base against the guys at CRS and their infallible secret book.

So, time for me to stop banging my head against a brick wall and to leave the hypocritical zealots to their economic doctrinal game.

S! Ian

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4 hours ago, BMBM said:

The Sdkfz 251 MG34 adds a benefit, as well as the armor protection against small arms. Its cross-country ability is also slightly better as I recall. Haven't driven it much to be honest. The Sdkfz 7 OTOH is rather bad value for money I agree, except that it's slightly harder to kill than a truck.

When the UC and M3 HT goes in, the Allies will gain the same or equal value/cost/benefit as the Germans have had for years. Both are well overdue. To balance the Sd7, the Allies should perhaps have the Quad Morris C8 instead of the Morris CDSW - which would also open the field for the as yet missing 25 pdr and the Flak 36 equivalent QF 3.7 inch AA (see https://rommelsriposte.com/2012/10/09/use-of-the-3-7-aa-gun-in-the-ground-role/).

I was referring to the heavy haul half track, sorry for being unclear.

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Sun afternoon, great pop on.

No EWS or FB to any AO :(

Something has to be done to make it easier to get battles going.

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6 minutes ago, delems said:

Sun afternoon, great pop on.

No EWS or FB to any AO :(

Something has to be done to make it easier to get battles going.

Turtles have it too easy and it makes people logs off.

Why?

- No FRU anymore

- No Fog of war

- Intel message keeps spraying need soldiers on defense

- Infinite pool of supplies for defenders

- Cap timers are ridiculously high

- Death skulls chit on map telling where enemies are (easy mode)

- EWS alerts too severe

- Trucks too loud

- Etc.

Edited by matamor
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*** Turtles have it too easy and it makes people logs off.

Just killed 4 FMS at our FB..... whew, good thing those 4 FMS weren't to your AO :)

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1 hour ago, matamor said:

Turtles have it too easy and it makes people logs off.

Why?

- No FRU anymore - Similarly and EXACTLY affects the attacking side as well as the defensive side (No more stealth D -FRU's slipped out behind an attacking line)

- No Fog of war - Hasn't been one since 2001

- Intel message keeps spraying need soldiers on defense - And attack - don't forget 1/2 the messages just because they don't fit your gripe..... 

- Infinite pool of supplies for defenders - Attackers can also move additional flags in, though this situation should be mitigated when .36 comes out

- Cap timers are ridiculously high - Some day we'll find a happy 'Zone' for timers, until then we'll keep adjusting them. 

- Death skulls chit on map telling where enemies are (easy mode) - They work both ways, and given that many players don't communicate where they die at/enemy presence the skulls serve a general SITREP purpose

- EWS alerts too severe - ??? 

- Trucks too loud - in RL engine noise carries a long ways (I've personally heard approaching vehicles at over 3Km while on patrol in Iraq), exactly what level of noise is acceptable to you?

- Etc.

 

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I do think EWS should be delayed to give attackers a little head start. Not sure on the exact amount of time ... maybe 5 min or so? So EWs reports what the situation was 5 min ago ... and not instant ... so even if you kill tge last ei in town, ews will not disappear for 5 min.

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B2K, i'm just trying to find ways to break staled map, turtle kingdom, on high pop zones, especially during weekends. Did you find it abnormal to see the last 100 maps being decided at least 75% of time by low pop players?

Here few more food for toughs again :

  • Double the numbers of AOs available per population
  • EWS alerts delayed by 5 minutes
  • FRU available to all premium players and above ON ATTACKING MISSION ONLY, should only spawn rifle bolt action and has no ammo packs
  • Attackers caps twice faster
  • INTEL only inform attackers side where they needed the most

- No Fog of war - Hasn't been one since 2001  - back then, there was no AO, no EWS, no AWS, no INTEL, no stupid death skulls, etc.

- No FRU anymore - Similarly and EXACTLY affects the attacking side as well as the defensive side (No more stealth D -FRU's slipped out behind an attacking line)  - well its almost 50/50 from the last players survey

 Intel message keeps spraying need soldiers on defense - And attack - don't forget 1/2 the messages just because they don't fit your gripe.....  refer to no fog of war

Infinite pool of supplies for defenders - Attackers can also move additional flags in, though this situation should be mitigated when .36 comes out hopefully yes, with JWBS being removed too, we'll celebrate when if it happens

Death skulls chit on map telling where enemies are (easy mode) - They work both ways, and given that many players don't communicate where they die at/enemy presence the skulls serve a general SITREP purpose  refer to no fog of war

Trucks too loud - in RL engine noise carries a long ways (I've personally heard approaching vehicles at over 3Km while on patrol in Iraq), exactly what level of noise is acceptable to you? then bring back FRU

Edited by matamor

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2 hours ago, delems said:

*** Turtles have it too easy and it makes people logs off.

Just killed 4 FMS at our FB..... whew, good thing those 4 FMS weren't to your AO :)

We need to wake up at 4AM to actually have a chance to move maps.

Edited by matamor
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3 hours ago, B2K said:

 

But how noise travels is greatly affected by solid objects such as trees, etc, not to mention if your behind a mountain. I don't think this is factored into the game at all. 

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45 minutes ago, matamor said:

B2K, i'm just trying to find ways to break staled map, turtle kingdom, on high pop zones, especially during weekends. Did you find it abnormal to see the last 100 maps being decided at least 75% of time by low pop players?

Here few more food for toughs again :

  • Double the numbers of AOs available per population
  • EWS alerts delayed by 5 minutes
  • FRU available to all premium players and above ON ATTACKING MISSION ONLY, should only spawn rifle bolt action and has no ammo packs
  • Attackers caps twice faster
  • INTEL only inform attackers side where they needed the most

- No Fog of war - Hasn't been one since 2001  - back then, there was no AO, no EWS, no AWS, no INTEL, no stupid death skulls, etc.

- No FRU anymore - Similarly and EXACTLY affects the attacking side as well as the defensive side (No more stealth D -FRU's slipped out behind an attacking line)  - well its almost 50/50 from the last players survey

 Intel message keeps spraying need soldiers on defense - And attack - don't forget 1/2 the messages just because they don't fit your gripe.....  refer to no fog of war

Infinite pool of supplies for defenders - Attackers can also move additional flags in, though this situation should be mitigated when .36 comes out hopefully yes, with JWBS being removed too, we'll celebrate when if it happens

Death skulls chit on map telling where enemies are (easy mode) - They work both ways, and given that many players don't communicate where they die at/enemy presence the skulls serve a general SITREP purpose  refer to no fog of war

Trucks too loud - in RL engine noise carries a long ways (I've personally heard approaching vehicles at over 3Km while on patrol in Iraq), exactly what level of noise is acceptable to you? then bring back FRU

Double the numbers of AOs available per population

 

Great, so allies can lost towns twice as fast in TZ3, careful what you ask for. 

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12 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

Double the numbers of AOs available per population

Great, so allies can lost towns twice as fast in TZ3, careful what you ask for. 

you brought the side bias, be careful

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