david06

Attack vs. Defense

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Let me ask you this... do you WANT or EXPECT every town to have (insert heavy tank)? And 2x or 3x as many in multi-AB towns?

And how many light and medium tanks do you WANT or EXPECT to counter that number of heavy tanks?

Let the bidding begin :D

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Yes I would want/expect that every vehicle is available at every town on the map. The numbers can be tweaked but I think that way it was in the far past is a fair way to do it. If there is a weapon that doesn't have an immediate counter, then you have less of them in the spawn list. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the spawnlists were pretty balanced out around 2008ish (I didn't play much in the early/mid 2010s except for a brief foray during Campaign 100 and some campaigns here and there). I remember that back in the day, my favorite tank (StugIIIG) was actually a pretty rare vehicle.

The worst IMHO would be to put the heavy tanks and "better" equipment in the movable brigades. Creates a situation where players ability to play with what they want is dictated by the vagaries of where flags are now and what HC has decided to do.

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53 minutes ago, BMBM said:

Let me ask you this... do you WANT or EXPECT every town to have (insert heavy tank)? And 2x or 3x as many in multi-AB towns?

And how many light and medium tanks do you WANT or EXPECT to counter that number of heavy tanks?

Let the bidding begin :D

I'd like every town to be an outpost of the omnipresent infantry formations in every army, with chronologically correct infantry-armor support etc., but with historical TOE adaptations to compensate for WWIIOL gameplay differing from actual fighting in ways that affect weapon requirements.

And I'd like armor beyond that...amounting to all the various armored/panzer/DCR-DCM formations...to be moveable units, not town based.

I recognize that that would defeat the purpose of going back to town based TOEs, and that having moveable units with no one to move them is dysfunctional.

If there was a way to make that work, that IMO would make the best game.

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On 3/5/2019 at 11:41 PM, BMBM said:

Agreed. It would however require a complete rewrite and redesign of the game. Can't realistically be done with the current strat system.

I dunno about that.  Closer then you may think.

 

Less delay for cap start and base capture timers if town empty (so you break that frontline curst and move faster).

Set movement times that are predicated more on truck park vs. all other equipment, so the lighter Axis brigades literally move faster on the map then say a heavier point value Char unit.  Then as the Axis gets heavier and heavier but has same truck park, it slows down, whereas the truck filled US units really blitz.

For a side that is speed challenged, set every other town to be an enemy town, so even moving forward is difficult for the slow side, and the faster side can more readily blow through.

 

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2 hours ago, aismov said:

Yes I would want/expect that every vehicle is available at every town on the map. The numbers can be tweaked but I think that way it was in the far past is a fair way to do it. If there is a weapon that doesn't have an immediate counter, then you have less of them in the spawn list. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the spawnlists were pretty balanced out around 2008ish (I didn't play much in the early/mid 2010s except for a brief foray during Campaign 100 and some campaigns here and there). I remember that back in the day, my favorite tank (StugIIIG) was actually a pretty rare vehicle.

The worst IMHO would be to put the heavy tanks and "better" equipment in the movable brigades. Creates a situation where players ability to play with what they want is dictated by the vagaries of where flags are now and what HC has decided to do.

This is a big thing for TBS, and it also is for DLC- every one of those DLC little cash ins are a promise that the stuff will be reasonably available.

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I note the absence of actual numbers. Don’t be shy.

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1 hour ago, BMBM said:

I note the absence of actual numbers. Don’t be shy.

I wish I had these numbers but I'm guessing with a question : let's take an old look at campaign 34 pre-TOEs supplies list per ab, for every tier?

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Don’t look back. Yesteryear’s game isn’t relevant. State your expectation.

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27 minutes ago, BMBM said:

Don’t look back. Yesteryear’s game isn’t relevant. State your expectation.

I judged my suggestion as relevant or I wouldn't post in forums this morning.

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Not sure if this was posted already but.

How about we give this a try or consider it at least, not even sure if that it is even possible but....

Leave the town themselves empty and FBs are the Brigade holders.

So now let say Allies would like to take Andenne, they set an AO , Axis instantly have to set a counter AO if they want to fight for that town that is. 

Once an AO is set  the town timer ( CPs and ABs go active and it takes let's say 15 min to go full captive active)

The battle outside of town and inside of town is starting to rage , interdictions are set up that need to be broken and so on. 

No one can spawn in town it be a pure CP to CP battle once all the CPs are capped  ( just an idea ) then the AB goes instantly live to cap. 

Once the town is taken then the AO stays active for another 30 min to maybe an hour before it drops,  and new FBs open up to the next town in line . 

Whoever took the town has their Flag in town but no Brigades they all get stacked at the next FB . I'm aware we have towns that don't have FBs, CRS would have to get them maybe supplied with FBs or there the old Town to Town rule applies and these cities are the only ones that can actually hold Brigades.

 

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Numbers gents, numbers :) Surely you have expectations.

Dre, that won’t work. FBs call supply from CPs, not the reverse.

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1 hour ago, dre21 said:

Not sure if this was posted already but.

How about we give this a try or consider it at least, not even sure if that it is even possible but....

Leave the town themselves empty and FBs are the Brigade holders.

No man’s land somehow works like this, no? Both sides spawn from FBs and can use their spawnables. It’s a different style of gameplay for sure, doesn’t happen often but it would be nice to see it happen more. 

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8 hours ago, aismov said:

The worst IMHO would be to put the heavy tanks and "better" equipment in the movable brigades. Creates a situation where players ability to play with what they want is dictated by the vagaries of where flags are now and what HC has decided to do.

If any suggestion involves HC needing to be online for any kind of supply to be available that is not available elsewhere, that's is a none-starter with Xoom.  I know that for a fact. 

 

9 hours ago, BMBM said:

Let me ask you this... do you WANT or EXPECT every town to have (insert heavy tank)? And 2x or 3x as many in multi-AB towns?

And how many light and medium tanks do you WANT or EXPECT to counter that number of heavy tanks?

Let the bidding begin :D

 

@BMBMI think you have to start with 2 Matties in the smallest situation/setting and work out from there with your budget tool, since the Matty is such an outlier when balancing lists.  I didn't know you were simply doing an integer multiple for each AB in a town.  

 

Tank[]Number

3b _____3

2c _____5

4d _____2

3f _____3

38t ____3

232 ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Char ___2

R35 ____5

H39 ____3

S35 ____3

Pan ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Matty ___2

MattyCS_1

Vickers __5

A13 _____8

 

Likewise, when the Tiger gets in you probably want to start with 2 Tigers (maybe just 1 Matty and Tiger for starters?) in the smallest situation/setting and again work out from it with the budget tool.  

EDIT:  changed the numbers a bit after posting

Edited by Capco
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I'm envisioning that a future TOEs criticism...community involvement via this thread notwithstanding...will be that having the heaviest tanks included in every town's spawnlist will make the lightest tanks mostly cannon fodder, which will negatively affect fun delivery for those that have bought access to those lighter tanks.

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Axis been attacking very good in euro tz when i am on i dont think number of tanks has anything to do with that....its all about the boots and how many can be put on a cp/bunker in rushes in bunches....have not seen an armybase surrounded by armor yet in the 3 weeks i been back playing like years past were we had to kill off enemy supply down to rifles before we could even get into the ab....nowadays its alot of luck or lack of responce that wins towns

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2 hours ago, Capco said:

If any suggestion involves HC needing to be online for any kind of supply to be available that is not available elsewhere, that's is a none-starter with Xoom.  I know that for a fact. 

 

 

@BMBMI think you have to start with 2 Matties in the smallest situation/setting and work out from there with your budget tool, since the Matty is such an outlier when balancing lists.  I didn't know you were simply doing an integer multiple for each AB in a town.  

 

Tank[]Number

3b _____3

2c _____5

4d _____2

3f _____3

38t ____3

232 ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Char ___2

R35 ____5

H39 ____3

S35 ____3

Pan ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Matty ___2

MattyCS_1

Vickers __5

A13 _____8

 

Likewise, when the Tiger gets in you probably want to start with 2 Tigers (maybe just 1 Matty and Tiger for starters?) in the smallest situation/setting and again work out from it with the budget tool.  

EDIT:  changed the numbers a bit after posting

Looks like nice ratios, except I would double the light stuff plus an extra set of DLC and add on 1-2 mediums.

 

Big factor in any hard numbers for spawnlist, what is the resupply ticket timer?   I think that has to be an additional spec for ANY 'what hard numbers should be' discussion.

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3 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Big factor in any hard numbers for spawnlist, what is the resupply ticket timer?   I think that has to be an additional spec for ANY 'what hard numbers should be' discussion.

8-10 hours maybe for a list like that.  Chances are they stay with 15... every time I try to get them to lower it, they always raise back to 15 again.  

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

I'm envisioning that a future TOEs criticism...community involvement via this thread notwithstanding...will be that having the heaviest tanks included in every town's spawnlist will make the lightest tanks mostly cannon fodder, which will negatively affect fun delivery for those that have bought access to those lighter tanks.

Yeah, but the matties and tigers if not spawned early enough on the DO will be sapped/zooked in the veh spawn. Then just the light/med tanks left. Two in each town is hardly overkill.

Guys buying the DLC know what tanks they bought, and even if they are "cannon fodder", well at least they can spawn them in every town which the axis sure as heck cannot do right now.

I would think 1 tiger T2, then in following tiers have tiger = 1xChurchill VIIs + Firefly = 3xS76s and then allocate remaining panzers/tanks/TDs/ACs etc. Problem being we have so many tank models now! :) 

 

S! ian

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3 hours ago, Jsilec said:

Axis been attacking very good in euro tz when i am on i dont think number of tanks has anything to do with that....its all about the boots and how many can be put on a cp/bunker in rushes in bunches....have not seen an armybase surrounded by armor yet in the 3 weeks i been back playing like years past were we had to kill off enemy supply down to rifles before we could even get into the ab....nowadays its alot of luck or lack of responce that wins towns

They cant be camped by axis panzers, most of their flags do not have any to spawn. Allies have lost many towns while overpopped, just because so many newer players want to camp frus and spawns, and snipe from depots and buildings rather then die trying to recap or guard. Both sides have this problem but it does seem worse on the allied side. Just today lobo51 was desperately trying to get players to help him in Ciney, the response was not good, and the town fell. Allies were OP.

 

S! Ian

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24 minutes ago, ian77 said:

They cant be camped by axis panzers, most of their flags do not have any to spawn. Allies have lost many towns while overpopped, just because so many newer players want to camp frus and spawns, and snipe from depots and buildings rather then die trying to recap or guard. Both sides have this problem but it does seem worse on the allied side. Just today lobo51 was desperately trying to get players to help him in Ciney, the response was not good, and the town fell. Allies were OP.

 

S! Ian

About 20% of Allied players are vets, who are good at responding to calls and doing what needs to be done. However, probably 80% of the Allied players are newer, or just don't care anymore, and are in it for the way *they* like to play it and don't respond to anything or coordinate with anyone. And when a call comes in, a certain portion of those 20% are *already* doing something mission critical that they can't easily step away from to respond to the call.

I think a second aspect is that many of our players that are more attack oriented have left - to many players, attacking is not as rewarding, time-wise, as defending. Running FMSs, jogging into town, running into defended CPs is all less rewarding than sitting in a building on the edge of town and sniping incoming ei. So again, most attacks are driven by the same 20% as above. However, our attacks are at best weak because a large portion of our playerbase would rather window camp on a DO with light EWS than run into town. On top of that, the Axis have excellent town defence - given our weak attacks, on any given AO, it's unlikely that we will achieve a toehold and more than likely our AOs turn into desperate defense of our FMSs.

On top of all of this is a certain amount of low morale - I think there's a certain feeling that the map outcome (Axis victory) is more or less sealed, so players play for the immediate, short term fun rather than the work that leads to long term map victory. When I'm online, we are typically at a pretty significant population disadvantage and the axis roll towns  - at best we slow them down. I'll admit that at this point, I consider 'slowing down the Axis' to be a victory rather than 'winning the map'.

 

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13 hours ago, jwilly said:

I'd like every town to be an outpost of the omnipresent infantry formations in every army, with chronologically correct infantry-armor support etc., but with historical TOE adaptations to compensate for WWIIOL gameplay differing from actual fighting in ways that affect weapon requirements.

And I'd like armor beyond that...amounting to all the various armored/panzer/DCR-DCM formations...to be moveable units, not town based.

I recognize that that would defeat the purpose of going back to town based TOEs, and that having moveable units with no one to move them is dysfunctional.

If there was a way to make that work, that IMO would make the best game.

This is still the vision of 1.36 I’d like to see. Combined with realistic flag movement times (based on transport type, fuel range, and distance of move), a system like this could recreate the conditions for mobile warfare, something that should be simulated in a game based on WW2.

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1 hour ago, ian77 said:

They cant be camped by axis panzers, most of their flags do not have any to spawn. Allies have lost many towns while overpopped, just because so many newer players want to camp frus and spawns, and snipe from depots and buildings rather then die trying to recap or guard. Both sides have this problem but it does seem worse on the allied side. Just today lobo51 was desperately trying to get players to help him in Ciney, the response was not good, and the town fell. Allies were OP.

 

S! Ian

Agreed the attacks are well coordinated against some really bad defense pop levels have been sporadic i wouldn’t say allies have the pop in euro tz but I haven’t played in any other tz so i cant say what deal is overall...allies strongpoint was euro tz after kgw left all those years ago so its surprising to see how few vets are left...i am sure over time its gonna flip to allies dominating but it wont happen overnight 

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What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

 

 

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<brainstorming>

What if the rank access to the heaviest units of each tier was drastically increased. In counterpart: the higher the tier, the lower the rank access to lighter equipment.

e.g:

Tier0: s35 = rank 11

Tier1: s35 = rank 8

Tier2: s35 = rank 5

tier3: s35 = rank 2

currently it’s manually adjusted by Ohm and Xoom but maybe it could somehow be automated.

 

Supplies could somehow be based on the required rank level. 

Total rank0 units: 100

Total rank1-3 units: 70

total rank4-6 units: 50

total rank7-9 units: 30

total rank10-12 units: 10

total rank13-15 units: 5

 

Also we could have larger supplies but very very slow ressuply timers (48 hours?)

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8 minutes ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

 

 

I agree 100%, the important thing is to have fun. However, personally fun means having a panzer to spawn if its needed, and most axis DOs and some AOs have zero panzers. Also, many allies are in the forums pointing out that axis win every map except those where an axis squad switches over and plays allied. They do not seem to be having huge amounts of fun. The reduced number of players, seems to suggest others have gone elsewhere for their fun. Success in this game comes from teamwork. Killing 25 ei may boost your stats and make you happy, give you fun, but if the town is lost it doesn't really help your team. As a team player, I want my team to succeed, be that an FB bust, town defense, whatever we are doing as a squad/team.

I have been on the receiving end over the last couple of days of some of these organised Axis AOs referred to above, and after the 25th time of dying on your way from various spawns to an undercap CP or bunker, often without even seeing the lmg gunning you down (and I hasten to add these are set up cutting not rambo running lmgs) with only a handful of other allied players trying to help, it is demoralising. If I was playing axis I know there would be more players throwing smoke, hunting the cutters, and getting into the CP/Bunker. They would be talking on discord or target chat, spotting threats and working together.

In TZ3 and early TZ1 there is a hard core of ten or so allied vets that use a single discord channel together, ANZACs, Lancers, 4Wing, 101st, AST, etc - squads don't matter in low pop - these guys work together as a squad and they work really well together, but there are not enough of them and the other allied players need to get on discord with them or at the very least read chat.

So, from the anger and upset in allied side chat after the loss of a town while allies are over popped, I don't think most of them are just having that much fun "killing stuff".

 

S! ian

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