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david06

Attack vs. Defense

288 posts in this topic

25 minutes ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that?

There's a 12 page thread full of posts that at best don't understand, and at worst vilify guys that log in to have fun.

It's almost a sin to play for fun here.

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35 minutes ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

no the point of defense being immediately rewarding, and attack being a waste of time in this MMOFPS was dismissed as a lack of teamwork (like every other problem in the game)

everyone is now talking about how things will magically get better with upcoming version ___ , and autistically indulging in more spawnlist and brigade debates

same bad ideas as before while pop remains low

imagine if the basic FPS mechanics and flow recieved a fifth of the attention as the crappy board game

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44 minutes ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

 

 

Me............while I like to win, having fun is just as important.  Win or Lose.

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6 hours ago, Capco said:

If any suggestion involves HC needing to be online for any kind of supply to be available that is not available elsewhere, that's is a none-starter with Xoom.  I know that for a fact. 

 

 

@BMBMI think you have to start with 2 Matties in the smallest situation/setting and work out from there with your budget tool, since the Matty is such an outlier when balancing lists.  I didn't know you were simply doing an integer multiple for each AB in a town.  

 

Tank[]Number

3b _____3

2c _____5

4d _____2

3f _____3

38t ____3

232 ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Char ___2

R35 ____5

H39 ____3

S35 ____3

Pan ____3

 

Tank[]Number

Matty ___2

MattyCS_1

Vickers __5

A13 _____8

 

Likewise, when the Tiger gets in you probably want to start with 2 Tigers (maybe just 1 Matty and Tiger for starters?) in the smallest situation/setting and again work out from it with the budget tool.  

EDIT:  changed the numbers a bit after posting

Some good numbers! Thanks Capco. 

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15 hours ago, BMBM said:

Let me ask you this... do you WANT or EXPECT every town to have (insert heavy tank)? And 2x or 3x as many in multi-AB towns?

Yes please. 

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16 hours ago, BMBM said:

Let me ask you this... do you WANT or EXPECT every town to have (insert heavy tank)? And 2x or 3x as many in multi-AB towns?

 

 

For what it's worth, yes and no, I'd rather see them in the brigade flags representing armoured and cavalry units, unless they were historically attached to infantry units (which will change with tiers). I'm ok with small amounts of armour being attached to the static flags as per historical TOE, but the real weight of armour should come from a panzer, armoured, cavalry flag that is moveable and again based on historical TOE. Much like we have now, Infantry tanks supporting infantry formations (assault guns as well) and the main body of armour in the movable flags. 

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1 hour ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

 

 

Indeed.  One of the most challenging aspects of working on this game, I would imagine, is attempting to appease the fun-seeking via killing stuff crowd, while not taking anything away from those who do care about the campaigns.

 

S!

 

 

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46 minutes ago, augetout said:

Indeed.  One of the most challenging aspects of working on this game, I would imagine, is attempting to appease the fun-seeking via killing stuff crowd, while not taking anything away from those who do care about the campaigns.

Agree that it is a very difficult balancing act. I'm the type that likes to grab a rifle and Rush CPs, defend CPs, and keep on pushing forward. My stats are terrible and I could care less :) 

But there is another player for whom stats are important and they are here more for the physical battle than the meta game. Those of us who post on the forum generally have a interest in the meta game to some degree, be it the historical feel all the way up to hardcore HC strategic stuff.

But n00b raised a valid point that many vets often look down on the guys sniping in the bushes. I certainly do more than a few times. They just have a different version of fun (though it is true that they shouldn't whine that the town/FB/FMS was lost while they were out stat padding).

That is why I think TBS is important and why all vehicles should be in every town and the movable brigades kept to a minimum and more of a sideshow. Most players don't care about the meta game to that regard. They just want to spawn the weapon they like to play and have some fun.

Not giving players the opportunity to spawn whatever they want no matter where the battle is, or whether HC is on, or whether the right type of flag was moved into town is like opening up a movie theater and saying you are only going to play RomComs and Thrillers with one Action movie showing in the 2nd Tuesday of every month.

Edited by aismov

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49 minutes ago, augetout said:

Indeed.  One of the most challenging aspects of working on this game, I would imagine, is attempting to appease the fun-seeking via killing stuff crowd, while not taking anything away from those who do care about the campaigns.

 

S!

 

 

But here's the issue with the "just want to have fun" mindset.

In order to have a fun battle, except in a few cases like Twerp/Brux inter-town fighting, SOMEONE had to do the work of driving a truck or walking a HC FRU.

Players who rarely do the "work" of establishing a spawn point are saying, my fun and my time are more important than everyone else's.

In fact, you are MULTIPLYING the work others have to do to create your fun. As anyone who has been the only person willing to drive a truck to an AO can attest, it's so much harder to establish a FMS when you're the only truck because your audio is easily isolated. I've driven 7-8 trucks to a town before only to either be rifled or the spawn blown within minutes, whereas if just ONE person had been driving with me the first attempt we would have been able to get them placed in relative secret.

If you leave dirty dishes in the sink, they don't wash themselves - even if you aren't aware when it happens, or that it happens, someone comes around and does the work you chose not to do. Please, drive a truck at least once or twice a session.

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2 hours ago, david06 said:

no the point of defense being immediately rewarding, and attack being a waste of time in this MMOFPS was dismissed as a lack of teamwork (like every other problem in the game)

everyone is now talking about how things will magically get better with upcoming version ___ , and autistically indulging in more spawnlist and brigade debates

same bad ideas as before while pop remains low

imagine if the basic FPS mechanics and flow recieved a fifth of the attention as the crappy board game

they're in the barracks, locked

have to derail a thread to talk about that stuff now

 

38 minutes ago, aismov said:

(though it is true that they shouldn't whine that the town/FB/FMS was lost while they were out stat padding).

i don't whine about them getting lost, my whining for the past year and a half has been about them never getting up in the first place

heh FMS/AO impotence

Edited by major0noob

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59 minutes ago, aismov said:

That is why I think TBS is important and why all vehicles should be in every town and the movable brigades kept to a minimum and more of a sideshow. Most players don't care about the meta game to that regard. They just want to spawn the weapon they like to play and have some fun.

Not giving players the opportunity to spawn whatever they want no matter where the battle is, or whether HC is on, or whether the right type of flag was moved into town is like opening up a movie theater and saying you are only going to play RomComs and Thrillers with one Action movie showing in the 2nd Tuesday of every month.

 

I disagree with you here, but I bias to the historical side of the TOE and strategic game argument over players get whatever toy they want when they want. For me, a wargame is about making do with what you have and finding a way to win the fight. Is there a middle ground between these two views? I hope so; a way to have reasonable amounts of equipment (not all) available most of the time while still maintaining the history and feel of the real TOEs/spawnlists, as they relate to each tier.  

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

i don't whine about them getting lost, my whining for the past year and a half has been about them never getting up in the first place

heh FMS/AO impotence

Comment wasn't directed at you! No offense intended S!

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3 hours ago, riprend said:

But here's the issue with the "just want to have fun" mindset.

In order to have a fun battle, except in a few cases like Twerp/Brux inter-town fighting, SOMEONE had to do the work of driving a truck or walking a HC FRU.

Players who rarely do the "work" of establishing a spawn point are saying, my fun and my time are more important than everyone else's.

In fact, you are MULTIPLYING the work others have to do to create your fun. As anyone who has been the only person willing to drive a truck to an AO can attest, it's so much harder to establish a FMS when you're the only truck because your audio is easily isolated. I've driven 7-8 trucks to a town before only to either be rifled or the spawn blown within minutes, whereas if just ONE person had been driving with me the first attempt we would have been able to get them placed in relative secret.

If you leave dirty dishes in the sink, they don't wash themselves - even if you aren't aware when it happens, or that it happens, someone comes around and does the work you chose not to do. Please, drive a truck at least once or twice a session.

Terrible game mechanics...lol enjoy!

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6 hours ago, Hardlead said:

What if some players use the campaign as a way to have fun, killing stuff.

Losing a town does not matter as long as they had fun, and winning the campaign is of no importance.

Anyone here in the forums thought of that? 

 

 

That's fine, but I am not sure you should cater to that crowd, as your far more likely (IMHO) to stay with the game long term if your vested in winning campaigns. short term thrill seekers are much more likely to eventually bore with the game and move on to other more recent FPS titles. 

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11 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

That's fine, but I am not sure you should cater to that crowd, as your far more likely (IMHO) to stay with the game long term if your vested in winning campaigns. short term thrill seekers are much more likely to eventually bore with the game and move on to other more recent FPS titles. 

Well said...

there is room for everyone in this game but long term subscribers are usually ones who care for the unique elements in this game not the FPS component alone which can be found in many other games often with better / newer quality.

that being said I think those that care about the overall result of map can also put the FPS players / killers in good use, motivate them and benefit from their skill set to help the cause. Fun is the most important element of the game and good leaders create opportunities for others to have fun as that’s how they gain their own fun of being able to role play as a leader and win the objectives whether in tactical or strategic layer.,

it is all about the relationships one cultivates.

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they're not exclusive groups... people play for both.

 

 

if the air/armour/inf/tactical aspect stops being fun and people point it out, lumping them into a rambo/ninja or any belittling group only adds to the ignorance toward the problem.

just look at the LW, they had real problems with the game but were told to deal with it with what they have.

 

blaming the players for everything will only drive pop down.

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4 hours ago, riprend said:

I've driven 7-8 trucks to a town before only to either be rifled or the spawn blown within minutes, whereas if just ONE person had been driving with me the first attempt we would have been able to get them placed in relative secret.

get everyone that wants to be in the fight take a truck.
Have some of them go with the intent to try and get living FMS in place
Have the others go and just continually circle round the town at varying distances and paths, maybe drop off a few atg's in the process if the mood strikes.

Audio wise, it's chaos, trucks everyplace, can't tell whats coming or going.
More useful than people sitting at the spawn menu waiting for a green check mark to appear?

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2 hours ago, nc0gnet0 said:

That's fine, but I am not sure you should cater to that crowd, as your far more likely (IMHO) to stay with the game long term if your vested in winning campaigns. short term thrill seekers are much more likely to eventually bore with the game and move on to other more recent FPS titles. 

 

1 hour ago, ozsheila said:

Well said...

there is room for everyone in this game but long term subscribers are usually ones who care for the unique elements in this game not the FPS component alone which can be found in many other games often with better / newer quality.

that being said I think those that care about the overall result of map can also put the FPS players / killers in good use, motivate them and benefit from their skill set to help the cause. Fun is the most important element of the game and good leaders create opportunities for others to have fun as that’s how they gain their own fun of being able to role play as a leader and win the objectives whether in tactical or strategic layer.,

it is all about the relationships one cultivates.

this game had plenty of long term subscribers that played the FPS component

the tank game before World of Tanks, the air game before War Thunder, and even some naval players that sailed the same awful ships over the same routes long before World of Warships

maybe 20 people on the planet care about the "unique aspect", the silly board game

and I've been told repeatedly to not care about towns being won/lost, not care about campaigns, and even not care about which faction I play that I should just log in regardless, not ever complain about the map state and float immediately to the less-populated side

so all that is left is the combat, and how many kills one gets by going on attack vs. sitting on defense is addressing the core game, not some optional side activity

"thrill seeking" lol, you have no game if there are not players constantly spawning and shooting at each other

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12 minutes ago, david06 said:

 

this game had plenty of long term subscribers that played the FPS component

the tank game before World of Tanks, the air game before War Thunder, and even some naval players that sailed the same awful ships over the same routes long before World of Warships

maybe 20 people on the planet care about the "unique aspect", the silly board game

and I've been told repeatedly to not care about towns being won/lost, not care about campaigns, and even not care about which faction I play that I should just log in regardless, not ever complain about the map state and float immediately to the less-populated side

so all that is left is the combat, and how many kills one gets by going on attack vs. sitting on defense is addressing the core game, not some optional side activity

"thrill seeking" lol, you have no game if there are not players constantly spawning and shooting at each other

Well I know while you were typing that post, there was a helluva good fight in Thiaucourt, which was preceded by a real fun fight in Anhee, along with Dinant, and so forth.  

 

I care about the campaign, so I guess that leaves 19 others...  The strategic element of this game should not be underestimated in its importance, or popularity.  My guess is the number is far north of '20'.

 

S!

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14 hours ago, Capco said:

@BMBMI think you have to start with 2 Matties in the smallest situation/setting and work out from there with your budget tool, since the Matty is such an outlier when balancing lists.  I didn't know you were simply doing an integer multiple for each AB in a town.  

Your numbers would give the Axis a definite edge against the French and a major one against the British, to the tune of nearly 30%. The AB integer was just an example.

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cap... you already know gameplay and gameplay balence is not taken into account when talking to them, and they refuse to accept the latter exists.

i mean, axis are loosing supply from having a half track 2x more expensive than their allied counterparts.

 

BMBM, you guys make it really difficult to have a constructive conversation. is it really necessary?

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2 hours ago, major0noob said:

at the expense of the FPS gameplay.

You are reaching an inaccurate conclusion.

Edited by augetout

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No, you just missunderstood the point.

Ill talk with math since there's a hard on for it lately

Is x at the expense of y ok.

Say fps is x, y is reenactment.

 

Is (x-z) + (y+z*1.2) better than x + y

 

Say x has a confirmed exponential component in the formula, in the range of 1-2 (call it a minimum threshold of fps gameplayability), and y has a low result (sim/over realism draws few costomers)

Is (x-z) + (y+z*1.2) worth it?

Unless x doesn't exist again.

Edited by major0noob
phone type

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

No, you just missunderstood the point.

Ill talk with math since there's a hard on for it lately

Is x at the expense of y ok.

Say fps is x, y is reenactment.

 

Is (x-z) + (y+z*1.2) better than x + y

 

Say x has a confirmed exponential component in the formula, in the range of 1-2 (call it a minimum threshold of fps gameplayability), and y has a low result (sim/over realism draws few costomers)

Is (x-z) + (y+z*1.2) worth it?

Unless x doesn't exist again.

That's funny stuff, but if you start with a formula where 3=1, (or 5=7, and so on) then it botches the entire equation, no?

 

I do not wish for FPS play to be 'sacrificed', nor does CRS, imho.  Your accusation(s) are not based in fact, mathematical or otherwise, but instead are opinions, which are fine to have, but are more productive if less vitriol and unnecessary pessimism is involved.  The entire premise of your 'equation' is false, as none are looking to sacrifice FPS for 'reenactment'.  Most are attempting to improve gameplay both at the tactical and strategic level---the rest seem to think the tactical level is being sacrificed, or the strategic level is being sacrificed, when indeed neither are (being sacrificed).

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