kgarner

Historical Spawnlists....

256 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, kgarner said:

no........ balance is equal opportunity.  One side will be better than the other.... and will win.  Robbing any side of that ability = game death

Jwilly.... I see you are active here in the forums quite a bit, and I respect what I think is your passion for the game.  But your last sortie was campaign 14........ so I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously

Except that the Allies don't have an equal opportunity to win because of the historical population disparity.  When the side "balance" is 60-40 for almost 2 decades, you get to a point where one side (in this case, the Allies) become an atrophic shell of their former selves.  

330zibk.jpg

 

 

Don't get me wrong, the Axis are the better side right now on just about every level regardless of pop.  But that statement ignores how the Axis got there.  Side fatigue from being underpopulated has lead the overburdened doers on the Allies to stop playing.  This happened systemically over many years. 

 

Balance mechanisms like spawn delay and variable cap timers do not reduce the amount of effort and time that the doers have to put in for their side to succeed.  These mechanics to not prevent side fatigue.  

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2 hours ago, Capco said:

Except that the Allies don't have an equal opportunity to win because of the historical population disparity.  When the side "balance" is 60-40 for almost 2 decades, you get to a point where one side (in this case, the Allies) become an atrophic shell of their former selves.  

330zibk.jpg

Don't get me wrong, the Axis are the better side right now on just about every level regardless of pop.  But that statement ignores how the Axis got there.  Side fatigue from being underpopulated has lead the overburdened doers on the Allies to stop playing.  This happened systemically over many years. 

Balance mechanisms like spawn delay and variable cap timers do not reduce the amount of effort and time that the doers have to put in for their side to succeed.  These mechanics to not prevent side fatigue.  

Are we sure it has been "60/40" for two decades. I see a lot of these figures being thrown around as facts without much consideration how accurate they are.

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Just now, aismov said:

Are we sure it has been "60/40" for two decades. I see a lot of these figures being thrown around as facts without much consideration how accurate they are.

Even if it was 55-45 or 52-48, the fundamental point stands. The level of disparity only affects the rate of side fatigue, it does not remove its existence.

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chronic side fatigue is an issue..... I often have a little shiver of remorse for my allied brothers from time to time...... When I am in-game and organizing attacks that go well..... My goal isn't to take 1 town...... its to take 1 so that 5 more will domino after the first....... The true battle is in the hearts and minds of the opponent.  Total victory in this game...... is beating up your enemy to the point of less playtime.  The only way to avoid that is to create success and cultivate a team effort that people not only feel part of..... but feel proud of.  Those are the parts of the game I love the most.  I cant really see any way to combat chronic side fatigue other than some kind of incentive program for some players to play allied.  Or maybe we should have a HC lottery before each campaign..... or just have the CinC's pick officers like a dodgeball game LOL, that might be fun?

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I know if CRS came to me and said....."hey man, we were wondering if you would play AHC for this campaign .... for the good of the game".  I would think long and hard about it..... I can't really think of any incentive that would make me more inclined to do so though, not off the top of my head unfortunately.....

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S! kgarner. 

 

Also lol at the dodgeball draft. I’ve done that to set up teams for scrimmages in other games and it actually works well!

 

I don’t think that will work for WWIIOL though. There’s too much going on at a cultural level on each side. Then there’s trust and relationships, things that take a long time to earn.

 

Not only that, but that would only work if the HC problem was THE problem. But at this point it’s worse than that. If I was able to reassemble the AHC All-Stars for a campaign I still don’t think it would be enough. No amount of communication and leadership can get people to listen and respond when they choose not to, or get people to attack when they choose to defend.

 

The Allies are short on skill and organization (as a side) just as much as leadership. If the Axis kept their core players playing, I’m certain they could win campaigns while underpopulated. 

Edited by Capco

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7 hours ago, Capco said:

Fwiw, right now in regards to historical tier progression, the Axis have a fighter edge in every tier until the Spit IX and P-38 come out.  The edges are slight but they are there.  

Thanks for the laugh

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11 minutes ago, snappahead said:

Thanks for the laugh

By comparison to the breakdowns of the last decade, the most recent lists frequently give the Axis a technological edge.

 

In T0.5, the Axis get access to the 109E4/b.  The Allies get no such fighter-bomber until T1.5 (the Bell; the Hurri2c doesn't come out until T2).  In addition, the T0 Spit1 and Hurri1 have never performed at their historical speeds.  

 

In T1.5 they get access to the 190A3 F/B and the 109F4.  Both of these aircraft trounce anything the Allies have until the P-38 (T2) and the Spit IX (T2.5).  

 

The 190A4 now comes out a full tier ahead of where it used to come out (T2 instead of T3).  

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While I agree with you that based on raw performance the Axis fighters do have a slight edge. But if given the chance of an airfield full of Spitfires or one full of 109s, I think we all know what would get picked for the team. At the end of the day despite many edges, the 109 is deficient where it counts the most... Low altitude turning performance. It's a running joke on the Axis side about the nonexistent Luftwaffe.

Actually I've said this in other threads and I think overall planes and tanks have hurt the Allies in the war effort since it saps away players who buzz overhead in planes. Apart from a few dedicated pilots Axis fighters get quickly shot out of the sky hence most axis play infantry. In a twisted way this actually helps the Axis a lot since infantry can capture. So even if Allies are overpop, the Axis probably have a tactical infantry advantage.

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Allied player doctrinal response to enemy air in the area is to send a bunch of fighters to take it out.

Axis player doctrinal response to enemy air in the area is to spawn AAA and SPAA.

 

Axis has definitely learned not to rely on LW, and it's not due to the skill of dedicated LW pilots. Some of the best pilots in the entire game are LW. It's just that there's clearly a reason why there are a lot more capable Allied pilots than there are Axis pilots. The reason itself is debatable, but the belief on the Axis side is that none of the things Axis planes do well matters in the game.

As a novice LW pilot, it's hard to believe in the power of Boom and Zoom when any plane you fly can be chased down by any Allied plane flying at around the same tier. Zoom doesn't count for much when your opponent can zoom faster and turn better, so there's not really any point to trying to take advantage of the things the plane is meant to be good at.

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no one flies axis regularly anymore because it's so lopsided, and the axis pilot community used to be the most reliable players

I would rather fight Migs with props in War Thunder than fight Spit IIb and Spit Vbs with the "superior" F4 in this game

you can't get any real sim community to take the air war here seriously as well, I've mentioned this game elsewhere and everyone knows about it the response is just extremely negative

there are usually 0-5 axis pilots in total online now, I don't see why anyone can even try to argue that things are fine

1 minute ago, Chaoswzkd said:

As a novice LW pilot, it's hard to believe in the power of Boom and Zoom when any plane you fly can be chased down by any Allied plane flying at around the same tier. Zoom doesn't count for much when your opponent can zoom faster and turn better, so there's not really any point to trying to take advantage of the things the plane is meant to be good at.

it has nothing to do with tactics it's the broken damage model and broken flight model

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the planes definitely hurt allies in underpop. very few recon and intercept trucks in air missions, the rest of the blue tags are in intercept mode 1-2 squares away from the target

there are many times when axis are taking a town and there are 4 in town while more are in the air, vs at least 8 axis. this is my experience at the tail end of tz-2

 

a easy strat to get a town: is to fly a single stuka mission then respawn as inf, can bait 5+ inf out of town and into the air for easy caps

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I really hate tit for tat but there are more than one side to the 'story' re: the 60/40 argument.

Is there no admission of US PT (TZ2?) where for years the Allies were over-pop and were on constant attack mode.  You guys had the numbers and the kit to do it with so you brought the heat.  My squad spent years during US PT just holding the line as best we could during the week and waited for the Allied playerbase to log around 11p EST or so so we could push back and hopefully reclaim what had been lost.

Was that not good for the game?  The largest contingent of customers for CRS is US-based so their gaming appetites were whetted M-Th with consistent offensive operation only on Friday /Saturday nights would there be push-back offensively from the Axis.  Heaven forbid the Euro TZ get a chance to play on Sunday and roll some towns.

Look, I know that I am biased - thousands of missions as AXIS and very few as Allied - but having played 18 years in this sandbox there is a history and a truth that exists and when peeps forget our history within the game and spout something different, I gotta come out of the woodwork and remind the present generation that there were YEARS of Allied overpopulation during US PT.  I'm not crying about it, never have but it happened.

The game is designed to 'capture the castle' and the unspoken joke (fear?) on the AXIS side is with the Allied kit in auto's (check the map to see how many FRENCH units are front-line - it's all US/BRIT), the massive numerical superiority in Allied armor, the Allied air strength with capable fighters (and the DB-7) . . . how your side struggles is not because of the equipment.  Look in the mirror and it's not all about the numbers; it's the psyche of the gamer and his SINGULAR ability to spawn X gear and have a significant impact on the battlefield and there is the problem.

My team of 3-star football recruits with a couple of 4-stars who are committed in the weight room, conditioning, game prep & execution will consistently whip a team of 4- & 5-star recruits who are more talented physically but have not learned the 'secret' to success which is unity as team, sacrifice of individual goals for team success, etc . . .  it's on your television every Saturday in the Fall.  And on your desktop, too.

If this surprises anyone, my bad.  I'm not trying to kick anyone but this game is tough and my K/D ratio is bleh . . . yet I keep coming back for more.  Hope each of you do as well - Allied or Axis.

!S,

tex

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Last time I flew Axis (many moons ago... aka a lot more pilots playing but also post-fishbowl), I was in the top 10 fighter list (at one point 4th) for almost 2.5 tiers, and that was flying without a squad and rarely did I even have a wingman.  

 

Q:  Why was I, who for the most part is a subpar pilot, able to accomplish such a ranking through almost an entire campaign?

 

A:  Axis planes have an advantage that noobs rarely if ever use:  with your speed and climb rate, you can dictate the pace of most engagements.  Even if you are a single LW pilot, if you choose to egress, you can usually egress freely and without harm.  If you have a wingman on comms, that egress doubles as a drag for your wingman to line up on.  If I'm dragging 4 Allies on my tail away from the engagement at the cost of my single 109's presence, that's a huge win even if I'm not scoring any kills.  

 

The only way the Allies can change that dynamic before the Spit IX is if they take the time to gain a considerable energy advantage (gain altitude) outside of and away from the current furball... which is rare.  P-38s can be a little dangerous as well with their lazzors during the egress, but can't keep up long-term with their abysmal climb rates.  

 

The learning curves for each side are the polar opposite of each other.  When you fly Allied, you start low and slow but eventually realize the value of wingmen, speed, and altitude after trying (and failing) to chase down a 109 solo for the 500th time.  When you fly Axis, you start with altitude and discipline and eventually work your way down low when you become accustomed to your airframe after trying (and failing) to turn-and-burn with a Spit for the 500th time only to flop into the ground.  The 109's instantaneous turn rate is enough to get deflection shots on any hamfisted Spit with proper flaps and throttle control.  

 

109s in general are (and the F4 in particular is) extremely difficult to ever score a kill on if flown with discipline.  Just don't turn unless you know it's the right move.  It takes some experience to know when to do that.  If you don't have that experience yet, just don't turn until you do.  And the second half of "turn-and-burn" isn't usually worthwhile in Axis planes.  You can actually "turn" just fine, but you will "burn" more energy than a Spitfire will in a sustained, lengthy turning engagement. 

 

The only planes where burning energy is an even bigger issue are the French ones.  Axis planes can turn and burn with most French aircraft quite well since their power/weight ratios are so much higher than those heavy American pigs with their pitiful, non-supercharged Allison engines.  The H87 gets a Merlin but they are just too heavy for it to make a difference.  The H87 might be the worst sustained turner in the game.

 

All that being said, I'd agree with the overall cultural differences between the two sides regarding air power.  Lol @major0noob's tactic for capping towns... that's actually pretty smart.

Edited by Capco

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Good leadership and organization are the #1 variables in being successful in this game..... hands down

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6 hours ago, aismov said:

Are we sure it has been "60/40" for two decades. I see a lot of these figures being thrown around as facts without much consideration how accurate they are.

More like 55/45, that IS a solid number.

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30 minutes ago, major0noob said:

the planes definitely hurt allies in underpop. very few recon and intercept trucks in air missions, the rest of the blue tags are in intercept mode 1-2 squares away from the target

there are many times when axis are taking a town and there are 4 in town while more are in the air, vs at least 8 axis. this is my experience at the tail end of tz-2

 

a easy strat to get a town: is to fly a single stuka mission then respawn as inf, can bait 5+ inf out of town and into the air for easy caps

Huh, Sgthenning was flying a Stuka last night, must have helped with caps.

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3 hours ago, tex64 said:

I really hate tit for tat but there are more than one side to the 'story' re: the 60/40 argument.

Is there no admission of US PT (TZ2?) where for years the Allies were over-pop and were on constant attack mode.  You guys had the numbers and the kit to do it with so you brought the heat.  My squad spent years during US PT just holding the line as best we could during the week and waited for the Allied playerbase to log around 11p EST or so so we could push back and hopefully reclaim what had been lost.

Was that not good for the game?  The largest contingent of customers for CRS is US-based so their gaming appetites were whetted M-Th with consistent offensive operation only on Friday /Saturday nights would there be push-back offensively from the Axis.  Heaven forbid the Euro TZ get a chance to play on Sunday and roll some towns.

Look, I know that I am biased - thousands of missions as AXIS and very few as Allied - but having played 18 years in this sandbox there is a history and a truth that exists and when peeps forget our history within the game and spout something different, I gotta come out of the woodwork and remind the present generation that there were YEARS of Allied overpopulation during US PT.  I'm not crying about it, never have but it happened.

The game is designed to 'capture the castle' and the unspoken joke (fear?) on the AXIS side is with the Allied kit in auto's (check the map to see how many FRENCH units are front-line - it's all US/BRIT), the massive numerical superiority in Allied armor, the Allied air strength with capable fighters (and the DB-7) . . . how your side struggles is not because of the equipment.  Look in the mirror and it's not all about the numbers; it's the psyche of the gamer and his SINGULAR ability to spawn X gear and have a significant impact on the battlefield and there is the problem.

My team of 3-star football recruits with a couple of 4-stars who are committed in the weight room, conditioning, game prep & execution will consistently whip a team of 4- & 5-star recruits who are more talented physically but have not learned the 'secret' to success which is unity as team, sacrifice of individual goals for team success, etc . . .  it's on your television every Saturday in the Fall.  And on your desktop, too.

If this surprises anyone, my bad.  I'm not trying to kick anyone but this game is tough and my K/D ratio is bleh . . . yet I keep coming back for more.  Hope each of you do as well - Allied or Axis.

!S,

tex

This. And I remember those days as well. US prime time overpop every night, slowly tank zerging and airquaking us into submission. The best you could do was fight until you were down to rifles getting the AB camped by et's. That was the story every night. Then I would log on the next night to see that "the breakfast club" had capped "an empty server" and read the cries on the forums.

What I would do is get a truck out and set up a defensive MS and run around 1k out intercepting trucks and atg's, sapping a tank here and there until eventually the town was lost and I would despawn.

When I see people like capco in denial about an imbalance that is known and quite obvious, I don't bother anymore. The real kicker is when they finally gave the axis something to compete with the 25mm aa gun that obliterates bombers, the flak38, the relegated it to the army base in short numbers....too funny. It's like they go out of their way to mock us.

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Huh? There should be 20 flak38 and 5 flak30 in the list. If not, it’s an error easily fixed.

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6 hours ago, BMBM said:

Huh? There should be 20 flak38 and 5 flak30 in the list. If not, it’s an error easily fixed.

How about letting them spawn in depots and FMS like the 25mm? You know, for balance. Look, awhile back when came back to the game, the new people running the game said they would fix airquake, so I became a builder. What happens, they come out with flying tank killers...??? To me, it was a slap in the face. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I hear someone mention allied underpop fatigue causing problems. Yet the underpop of the German side for years US primetime wasn't a problem? What kind of double talk is that? The truth is, if he wants to be right about that fatigue thing, then we can surmise that the US primetime overpop for years must have been the reason for the games decline in population...stands to reason right? The same person who tries to tell us there is no imbalance in the air war. It's like watching a republican or democrat argue a point they know is wrong but because it is supported by their party, they don't care if it's right or wrong, they'll make it right. There is no reasoning with them.

I've played both sides, and I know the pros and cons of both. That's why I support 1944 tanks for the allied side, the tigers would roll right through their tanks. It's much needed balance, and during war adjustments are made in a given situation as to what is needed to get the job done. But then when it comes to balancing things the other way, well, it becomes a matter of what is historical. That doesn't fly with me.

So now here we are with an imbalance in the support tank role with German tanks having no machine guns and players asking for balance. What happens? Yup, here comes that historical word again and it doesn't surprise me at all. Nothing has changed

 

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7 hours ago, snappahead said:

How about letting them spawn in depots and FMS like the 25mm?

This might be a bug. I know I've done a .bug report on it, because the FlaK 30 is FMS-deployable and it is also a 20mm.

Have you actually heard CRS say "the FlaK 38 will be AB-only for xyz reason", or are you just assuming?

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On 3/20/2019 at 4:44 PM, Capco said:

Lol @major0noob's tactic for capping towns... that's actually pretty smart.

 

On 3/20/2019 at 4:57 PM, Kilemall said:

Huh, Sgthenning was flying a Stuka last night, must have helped with caps.

i switch sides up to 4 times a game session, at least twice per log in. i've learned some pretty weird stuff that works.

most of all it's striking to see just how bad the allies play compared to axis.

 

regardless of the supply imbalance, i think axis will win every map when a squad doesn't switch.

i remember flavion one map, allies were brutally cut by a single 3f. nobody marked him or even gave a rough description of his position like "on the road". the guy slaughtered the entire AO solo. allies used up the sapper supply in 3 flags, and i was the only tank that spawned but couldn't get him cause he was unmarked. after a long flanking maneuver (which was unnecessary if he were marked) i finally got him, but the spawnable and FRU were low on autos by the time i got him. there were enough people to burn through all the sappers and most of the autos, yet none of them marked the ET cutting them.

that was my last straw with the allies, got sapped and immediately spawned axis. there were 5 axis holding off 10-20 allies... the 5 axis weren't using exceptional teamwork and leadership, target chat was dead and they were in different squads. all they did was mark and not die stupid deaths.

 

to be fair axis can be pretty dumb as well, but allies make a habit of it.

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16 minutes ago, major0noob said:

i remember flavion one map, allies were brutally cut by a single 3f. nobody marked him or even gave a rough description of his position like "on the road". the guy slaughtered the entire AO solo. allies used up the sapper supply in 3 flags, and i was the only tank that spawned but couldn't get him cause he was unmarked. after a long flanking maneuver (which was unnecessary if he were marked) i finally got him, but the spawnable and FRU were low on autos by the time i got him. there were enough people to burn through all the sappers and most of the autos, yet none of them marked the ET cutting them.

that was my last straw with the allies, got sapped and immediately spawned axis. there were 5 axis holding off 10-20 allies... the 5 axis weren't using exceptional teamwork and leadership, target chat was dead and they were in different squads. all they did was mark and not die stupid deaths.

Why am I not surprised...

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On 20/3/2019 at 5:26 PM, Capco said:

Even if it was 55-45 or 52-48, the fundamental point stands. The level of disparity only affects the rate of side fatigue, it does not remove its existence.

2004-2019: Allies 49,57% - Axis 50,43%

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