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snappahead

Mortar shrapnel sparse

28 posts in this topic

I was listening on side channel, and things come up all the time. I offered to supply anyone who wanted to mortar. I was told that the mortar wasn't working so well since the HE audit, and could not get anyone to mortar, and never seem to be able to.

So I went offline and copied some infantry drones in an area to test the HE of the mortar. What I found in the offline testing was that the shell could kill a good 5-7 meters away(judging distance), but it was very few that died. And some infantry survived a meter from the hit spot. It seems it does have deadly shrapnel, but it is very sparse. Has anyone else tested this? It seems the mortar is a waste of a unit, and it's a shame as it's the only artillery we have

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I agree this needs to be looked at - I think I've been killed by a mortar once all campaign? It's a careful balance since people really dislike being killed by indirect fire, but we need mortars to be closer to "meh" than "worthless"

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Right now I chuckle when I see someone running around with a mortar.

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I once killed an M10 with a mortar round to the top several campaigns ago. My best mortar memory. 

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When a round explodes and breaks into shrapnel that shrapnel moves away from the center of the explosion. So lets say you create 360 pieces of shrapnel.

On a single plane if you draw 36 rays from the center radiating out that's 1/10 of your potential shrap in a single plane.

Now create 9 more planes from center and you'll notice the separation between the rays grows quickly.

360 is just a easy number as there are 360 degrees in a circle.

 

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@OLDZEKE My understanding (which can certainly be flawed) is that a light mortar HE shell should be at least as deadly as a grenade going off.

I think it would be interesting to see a mortar vs. grenade comparison. Given the relatively recent approval of grenades from the playerbase, I'd assume grenades are operating correctly but mortars are not, unless the mortar was fixed like the grenades but never recovered from the HE audit stigma.

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13 minutes ago, Chaoswzkd said:

@OLDZEKE My understanding (which can certainly be flawed) is that a light mortar HE shell should be at least as deadly as a grenade going off.

I think it would be interesting to see a mortar vs. grenade comparison. Given the relatively recent approval of grenades from the playerbase, I'd assume grenades are operating correctly but mortars are not, unless the mortar was fixed like the grenades but never recovered from the HE audit stigma.

As you are aware I can't go into detail. Not my area. This would require Hatch or Scotsman imput. All I can say is that when I test them and grenades they act similarly.

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A couple of things:

I cannot recall which CRS rep it was but they stated that the mortar HE shell had LESS explosive capability then the current grenades; hence less killing power. 

34 minutes ago, riprend said:

I agree this needs to be looked at - I think I've been killed by a mortar once all campaign? It's a careful balance since people really dislike being killed by indirect fire, but we need mortars to be closer to "meh" than "worthless"

People dislike getting killed in game, period; how is being killed by INDIRECT fire any different than being killed via 'glide-bombing' . . . the individual 'recipient' has no ability to ward off the incoming bomb.  Do we take away bombing in game, too?  Of course not.  

I'm all for MORE indirect fire and tools to be more effective in delivering massive amounts of suppression on time and on target.  I would love to see larger and more lethal mortars introduced into the game.  The larger the platform = fewer in number and more in-field support to supply it with ammo, observation of fires, etc . . .

A true combined-arms battle, which does NOT take place very often; particularly as AXIS due to the lack of survivability of our AFV platforms, should be violent/awesome, suppressive, and very irritating to the ingame opponent.  That's what this game is all about.  If it takes 30 minutes or 2 hours to capture the objective but there is carnage and coordination all around . . . yes, Side X may have gotten their asses kicked but there is recognition for a job well-done and you learn and adapt for the next battle.  And so on, and so on.  Plus, it was a helluva gaming session where you killed what you could, hoped to survive long enough to help your side either attack or defend at the FB or town.

Question - why can't the Stug rounds be server tracked like mortar rounds?  They are specifically designed for direct & indirect fire support and with the terrain and trees in game; not having that capability effectively neutralizes the platform.  As a result, the Stug platforms have to get much closer than 'doctrine' which makes them very susceptible to enemy infantry and ATG fire.

!S,

tex

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tex nailed it.

afaik HE is working as intended, no issues. Grenades are working *awesome* (for the very first time since game's release), and mortar shells work GREAT; as realistic as ever.

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Well, like I said, my testing was done offline. I went back and did the same with grenades and the grenades seemed to work better. Again, this testing was done in offline mode which may be different from what happens on the server

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4 hours ago, odin67 said:

I once killed an M10 with a mortar round to the top several campaigns ago. My best mortar memory. 

I don't like to outshine someone however, my greatest kill in 18 years playing was a Char kill with a mortar a couple years ago at Hasselt, never saw the Char was just lobbing the shells at the bridge

Now I have no idea if it was a bug, or i was the first guy to hit the Char etc and got credit, but it did give me the kill as crazy as that is. I always hoped it was that the guy had his back gunner hatch open and the shell entered that way haha :) 

But also I have spend literally 30 mins lobbing shells no stop into an AB where that was the only place ei could spawn and did not get 1 kill over 30 mins non stop HE rounds.

I like the unit alot, just wish they were a bit more lethal

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The mortars years ago used to be real effective, and you didn't have the option of putting the mouse over a mark and getting the distance. You actually had to figure out the longitude and latitude between the targets and do math. One of the German squads had a chart that made it easier, but you still had to do math. I was told Swiftcut had a mortar team that was quite efficient at bracketing a target and suppressing it. The goal I had was setting up one or two mortars to help cap a spawn, but I get no takers. 

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Snappahead,

SWIFTCUT was one of the few Jedi's in using the mortars for sure.  He and anyone who joined him racked up prodigious kill amounts AND impacted the battlefield which for a mortar - well, that's saying something. :)

Glad you liked the range chart that I developed with the help of fellow Iron Wolves.  I was just looking for a way to cut down on keystrokes for range finding so we could focus on getting more HE and SMOKE downrange versus counting on our fingers & toes. :)

!S,

tex

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6 minutes ago, tex64 said:

Snappahead,

SWIFTCUT was one of the few Jedi's in using the mortars for sure.  He and anyone who joined him racked up prodigious kill amounts AND impacted the battlefield which for a mortar - well, that's saying something. :)

Glad you liked the range chart that I developed with the help of fellow Iron Wolves.  I was just looking for a way to cut down on keystrokes for range finding so we could focus on getting more HE and SMOKE downrange versus counting on our fingers & toes. :)

!S,

tex

That was you and your squad? Kudos, that was impressive. The chart worked great, and there was a sense of accomplishment when you used the chart, got everything figured out and zeroed in on something. And you actually learned something about longitude and latitude. When I came back to the game and asked about the chart and where I could find it, someone pointed out the mouse over a mark for distance. I was like, boy, where was this back in the day? I would rather have it the old way, stronger mortars and having to figure it out. There was an allied squad that was pretty good at it too. I remember getting pinned at an army base spawn by allied mortars. Thanks for the work on the chart, that's what made the game great, community squads posting instructional information on equipment. There used to be a lot of information out there to help players.

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But the mouse-distance only calculates linear distance, it doesn't account for elevation changes.

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Here is the woefully outdated Mortar 101 Guide that also addresses the vertical interval.  It still has some good info but it's now over 10 years old.   The "Bacon Strip" or Lateral Adjustment Guide is still fairly accurate but I need to do another battery of testing since the HE audit.  I think we have more dispersion now but in other news - you can really make a tight smoke bank for concealment by moving laterally 1/4 tubes.  Tactical smoke barrages need to be tight for concealment and there is skill in doing that.  

http://www.battlegroundtools.com/documents/Mortars_101.pdf

The new ingame range tool is handy but there is something to be said for the sweat equity from the old days.  There were several others who really laid the groundwork for success with mortars, I just took their hard work and added a tiny bit. :)

Enjoy,

tex

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5 hours ago, tex64 said:

Here is the woefully outdated Mortar 101 Guide that also addresses the vertical interval.  It still has some good info but it's now over 10 years old.   The "Bacon Strip" or Lateral Adjustment Guide is still fairly accurate but I need to do another battery of testing since the HE audit.  I think we have more dispersion now but in other news - you can really make a tight smoke bank for concealment by moving laterally 1/4 tubes.  Tactical smoke barrages need to be tight for concealment and there is skill in doing that.  

http://www.battlegroundtools.com/documents/Mortars_101.pdf

The new ingame range tool is handy but there is something to be said for the sweat equity from the old days.  There were several others who really laid the groundwork for success with mortars, I just took their hard work and added a tiny bit. :)

Enjoy,

tex

Tex and his merry band of mortar testers! :)

 

S! ian

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9 hours ago, tex64 said:

Here is the woefully outdated Mortar 101 Guide that also addresses the vertical interval.  It still has some good info but it's now over 10 years old.   The "Bacon Strip" or Lateral Adjustment Guide is still fairly accurate but I need to do another battery of testing since the HE audit.  I think we have more dispersion now but in other news - you can really make a tight smoke bank for concealment by moving laterally 1/4 tubes.  Tactical smoke barrages need to be tight for concealment and there is skill in doing that.  

http://www.battlegroundtools.com/documents/Mortars_101.pdf

The new ingame range tool is handy but there is something to be said for the sweat equity from the old days.  There were several others who really laid the groundwork for success with mortars, I just took their hard work and added a tiny bit. :)

Enjoy,

tex

This is awesome, thanks! Unfortunately, the mortars are having little effect. Undercova and another player were launching into an ab last night with no hits or kills, and the ab was quite active. Again, the offline testing I did seems to show very little shrapnel coming out of the explosion. Some of the ei drones were surviving less then a meter from the blast. And with all that needs addressing, I don't see them looking at this any time soon. However, if you want to lay a smoke screen down they are still effective.

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16 hours ago, xanthus said:

tex nailed it.

afaik HE is working as intended, no issues. Grenades are working *awesome* (for the very first time since game's release), and mortar shells work GREAT; as realistic as ever.

I'm not so certain grenades are working awesome against prone infantry, although they've certainly improved against crouching or standing infantry.

Last week, we had a CP that was being capped by 2 EI LMGs... Both were prone, flanking the upstairs stairwell entrance at a 90 degree angle.

I was a rifleman - we were low on supply. So I followed a practice of nade and rush.

Over a bunch of sorties, I threw a total of 18 HE grenades into the CP attic  from outside. I threw another 6 up the stairs from below to ricochet off the slanted ceiling and drop more or less on their backs.

I never scored a hit with any of the grenades (that's 24 of them, including 6 that I *know* were within 1-2ft of the ei). I eventually hit one of the ei with a rifle shot before getting mowed down, but it wasn't a kill. Then they completed the cap.

As far as I can tell, grenades are more or less ineffectual against prone infantry. I expect them to be somewhat less effective, sure... but not completely ineffective. 

Grenades seem to work very well against crouching or standing EI in CPs. Clearing CPs with a rifle in much more feasible in these cases. You just still can't do anything about prone LMGs camping the stairs unless they make a mistake and allow you to get a shot off.

 

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15 minutes ago, caydel said:

I'm not so certain grenades are working awesome against prone infantry, although they've certainly improved against crouching or standing infantry.

Last week, we had a CP that was being capped by 2 EI LMGs... Both were prone, flanking the upstairs stairwell entrance at a 90 degree angle.

I was a rifleman - we were low on supply. So I followed a practice of nade and rush.

Over a bunch of sorties, I threw a total of 18 HE grenades into the CP attic  from outside. I threw another 6 up the stairs from below to ricochet off the slanted ceiling and drop more or less on their backs.

I never scored a hit with any of the grenades (that's 24 of them, including 6 that I *know* were within 1-2ft of the ei). I eventually hit one of the ei with a rifle shot before getting mowed down, but it wasn't a kill. Then they completed the cap.

As far as I can tell, grenades are more or less ineffectual against prone infantry. I expect them to be somewhat less effective, sure... but not completely ineffective. 

Grenades seem to work very well against crouching or standing EI in CPs. Clearing CPs with a rifle in much more feasible in these cases. You just still can't do anything about prone LMGs camping the stairs unless they make a mistake and allow you to get a shot off.

 

Prone should give more protection especially if "facing" the source, head down helmet first. Lying down presents a much smaller target area for shrapnel to hit.

Grenades do seem to be working better, well they seem to kill me more often than they used to!  :) 

S! Ian 

 

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Prone should give least possibility of a shrap hit.

 

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30 minutes ago, caydel said:

I'm not so certain grenades are working awesome against prone infantry

They shouldn't work awesome against prone infantry.

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So, prone infantry should be immune to grenades? Sorry, I don't buy it - even if no primary fragmentation hit them, there is a decent blast, ricochets, splinters and all kinds of nastiness.

Edit: and under 1m, there should still be at least some primary fragmentation hitting them. I'm not saying it should cut them down at 10-20+ feet.

Edited by caydel

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Don't think anyone said they should be immune. Certainly lying near a grenade has been fatal for me. 

How do you know the grenade is within 1m from 2 prone eis? If I see a nade I try moving away from it, especially if in the bunker or a CP.

S! Ian 

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24 minutes ago, ian77 said:

Don't think anyone said they should be immune. Certainly lying near a grenade has been fatal for me. 

How do you know the grenade is within 1m from 2 prone eis? If I see a nade I try moving away from it, especially if in the bunker or a CP.

S! Ian 

Because I stood on the stairs when I threw it, and went up immediately following detonation, and they were prone and deployed already. I don't think they moved.

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