sydspain

Tz3 should have only 1 AO

204 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, david06 said:

there is a hard timer for placing an AO, and also a timer until depot radios go hot so the main objective in the game is impossible to complete for a period of time

during a 1-AO period this makes for a mandatory wait after a town is captured, and no amount of "teamwork" a.k.a. inane side-tasks will make the wait go away

even if you had a flight of paratroopers ready you would have to tell them all to sit around and wait

this waiting does nothing but give everyone online an opportunity to log off and kills the flow of battle

and no one plays to fix AI pits or place boxes on static tents, if they do then please notify CRS to put some screencaps on the Steam frontpage I'm sure it will make great marketing material for a MMOFPS lol
 

2 AOs indeed help keeping a ground to head to. With the current HC/system-placed AO it could contribute to favour ninja caps however. That is why EWS triggered (or sustained) AOs will help keeping players engaged, while guaranteeing sustainable forces in every AO.

I also observed during 1.36 beta the issue of allied veterans having to sit in the bunker with newbies not playing/contributing/communicating like they should. Hence a handful of axis were flooding the town in TZ3 and were almost unstoppable until another veteran went to sap their FMS. Veterans guys were having fun though on a very dense area (bunker), while newbies kept falling like flies, running anywhere but the right direction.

I have however checked the figures: there are no less (unique) allied players than axis. It is just a matter of how long they remain online.  For 18 years I believe that it is really a matter of leadership and cohesion. our game concept has no sense without these.

What could be done to further keep players busy and engaged?

We can decrease AO setup timer to 5 minutes, and increase the bunker radio to 15 minutes, but still, I believe our whole game dynamics mostly relies on how spawn and objective locations are managed.

We indeed can note that:

- flags are 10m away of spawn depots 

- Bunkers are INSIDE army bases 10m away of spawns 

- some army bases design are literally camp traps, when not being in the center of town 100m away of  most depots

- objectives are spread out in a 360degrees arena, there is no real tactical battle frontline

- FMS’ are deployed 360degrees around town with the objective of concealment instead of combined arms ZOC

- FBs can become a battle killer when ninja sapped 

All these favor ninja actions and don’t promote teamwork nor generate localized battles. This generates poor situational awareness both for friendlies and enemies. Except when a very well organized squad (or with large numbers) gets involved. if numbers on the defensive side are high as well, these design errors become less visible since we enter a real attrition battle.

IMO The core issue is just there. If we manage to find out a way to improve how spawns and objectives are made available, this should improve the experience for everyone in all timezones even with severe unbalance situations or population numbers. Keeping players engaged and thus keeping sides balanced.

This is just my current analysis of the situation and I am still working on gathering evidences. That is why your feedbacks here are useful and important.

And as @sorella said: Austerlitz bordel! (Amen to the 3eDLM)

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14 hours ago, sgthenning said:

It makes little difference 4 expert vets can hold a town vs 20 noobs any day if and I mean if you spawn in to defend town soon as ews goes off. If you wait you lose.

I have no problem holding a town my self until another player comes to the aid of the town. It really isn't that hard and since I know where people set efms 99.9 % of the time no matter the town if I get out early when ews goes off you will lose your efms. Then all I have to do is respawn back into the spawn cp and wait.

This is just as much a problem to the whole game as it is a potential solution to the TZ3 woes.  

 

Defending.  Is.  Too.  Easy.  When.  You.  Focus.  On.  It.  

 

There is too significant of a disparity between attacking and defending.  

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14 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

All these favor ninja actions and don’t promote teamwork nor generate localized battles. This generates poor situational awareness both for friendlies and enemies. Except when a very well organized squad (or with large numbers) gets involved. if numbers on the defensive side are high as well, these design errors become less visible since we enter a real attrition battle.

IMO The core issue is just there. If we manage to find out a way to improve how spawns and objectives are made available, this should improve the experience for everyone in all timezones even with severe unbalance situations or population numbers. Keeping players engaged and thus keeping sides balanced.

I think the bigger question to ask is:  why are ninja actions favored?  

 

Well, they tend to be more successful than sending a PM to the opposing HC and telling them where you are going to attack next 15 minutes in advance so they can set up a good defence, right?  On a basic level, people follow the path of least resistance.  

 

The following are all "ninja" tactics that greatly increase the chance of successfully taking a town:

-don't set off EWS until multiple people are in position to set FMS

-set off fake EWS at other towns

-coasting in trucks with engines off so you avoid the enemy

-capping a CP without killing an AFK defender

-mole P2 AOs to draw defenders from your P1 AO, or hope that you can cap an unguarded spawnable at the P2

-fast swapping (i.e. switching towns faster than your enemy so that you can avoid fighting them)

 

If you don't want your game to play this way, then the game needs to be designed in such a way that ninja actions are detrimental, while team-based actions are central and beneficial.  The RPAT is a great example of this.  A defender who takes an RPAT out of town alone without support should be a bad/ineffective thing for the defenders to try and do.  Instead, it's usually a one-way ticket to 4 silent tank kills.  

 

If defense wasn't so easy, people wouldn't be so inclined to ninja when they attack.  

Edited by Capco
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1 hour ago, Capco said:

I think the bigger question to ask is:  why are ninja actions favored?  

 

Well, they tend to be more successful than sending a PM to the opposing HC and telling them where you are going to attack next 15 minutes in advance so they can set up a good defence, right?  On a basic level, people follow the path of least resistance.  

 

The following are all "ninja" tactics that greatly increase the chance of successfully taking a town:

-don't set off EWS until multiple people are in position to set FMS

-set off fake EWS at other towns

-coasting in trucks with engines off so you avoid the enemy

-capping a CP without killing an AFK defender

-mole P2 AOs to draw defenders from your P1 AO, or hope that you can cap an unguarded spawnable at the P2

-fast swapping (i.e. switching towns faster than your enemy so that you can avoid fighting them)

 

If you don't want your game to play this way, then the game needs to be designed in such a way that ninja actions are detrimental, while team-based actions are central and beneficial.  The RPAT is a great example of this.  A defender who takes an RPAT out of town alone without support should be a bad/ineffective thing for the defenders to try and do.  Instead, it's usually a one-way ticket to 4 silent tank kills.  

 

If defense wasn't so easy, people wouldn't be so inclined to ninja when they attack.  

Completely agree. But that's human nature and present in every game. Players will buy gold in MMOs rather than grind it. Players will camp spawns in FPS games. Players will hide in Battle Royale games hoping to make top 10 by avoiding fighting. In every game you are going to have players that take the easy way out. It's human nature like you said to find the path of least resistance.

Some degree of "ninja" I think is healthy. Historically there were lots of great "ninja" operations done in RL WWII. It's certainly historical... Up to a point. So we should have a system where we have small objectives that are amenable to small-man teams using stealth/infiltration tactics, but should also make sure that larger objectives like cities don't fall to these tactics.

One game changer from the get go is supply/attrition because it opens up more ways to capture a town other than banzai charging or ninja'ing a bunker. Another would be to limit the 360 degree FMS that Zebbeee mentioned, and look at warping as well. Both are major factors of fight avoidance.

One might say that will only make the situation worse by making the job of defending easier. But these are really just the other side of the supply/attrition coin, which is important because with infinite supply the other system breaks down since you can't break through a line that has effectively limitless infantry and tank supply. But with 1.36 we can work to actually having REAL front lines by geographically limiting the FMS and allow players to decide how to attack and capture a town (surprise/overwhelming force/attrition/combination). This will create more combined arms action and fun battles. Yes it will be harder to cap CPs, but that's assuming that "fun" is exclusively the domain of CP capping. Or that by not capping CPs, and not moving the map, you are therefore not having fun (which I think is a dubious statement when you look at the majority of players who simply like to snipe from windows to the eternal consternation of veteran players and self-titled map movers).

And this brings me to expanding gameplay modes and roles. The above needs to be tempered with small achievable objectives that give players something to do, since few people can log hours to see a big battle through to the finish. That is why PPOs is good because it gives players something else to do and a immediate sense of accomplishment. Same can go with supply and trucking. We've discussed tons of other things for players to do outside of rushing a bunker which is important for gameplay variety and ultimately player retention. Especially for the casual player for whom the whole WWII simulation idea isn't as big of a hook as for the WWII history junkie (which is what most veteran players are). This is a topic for its own post, but to boil it down it involves stats, top10 lists, VISIBLE achievements, alternate gameplay roles/modes, RPG elements, and player directed action and generated content.

Essentially we need to expand gameplay from the single-role focus we've had now which is either rush the bunker and cap the town, or go play a different game.

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it's a weekend afternoon and neither side can put EWS on more than one opposing town, despite a whopping 3 AOs per side

the tactical gameplay has been slowed down to such an extent that I'm not sure what the worry is, especially since there is supplies in every single town now

if TZ3 continues to have a disproportional influence now it's simply because prime time pops cannot move the map

NOef0RZ.jpg

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2 hours ago, david06 said:

it's a weekend afternoon and neither side can put EWS on more than one opposing town, despite a whopping 3 AOs per side

the tactical gameplay has been slowed down to such an extent that I'm not sure what the worry is, especially since there is supplies in every single town now

if TZ3 continues to have a disproportional influence now it's simply because prime time pops cannot move the map

NOef0RZ.jpg

Its basically intermission new map is tuesday so maybe that why things slowed down or peeps relaxing before WBS?....you are correct on lowpop controlling the game but i still enjoy the fights in euro and ustzs

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On 4/26/2019 at 11:15 AM, Capco said:

I think the bigger question to ask is:  why are ninja actions favored?  

 

Well, they tend to be more successful than sending a PM to the opposing HC and telling them where you are going to attack next 15 minutes in advance so they can set up a good defence, right?  On a basic level, people follow the path of least resistance.  

 

The following are all "ninja" tactics that greatly increase the chance of successfully taking a town:

-don't set off EWS until multiple people are in position to set FMS

-set off fake EWS at other towns

-coasting in trucks with engines off so you avoid the enemy

-capping a CP without killing an AFK defender

-mole P2 AOs to draw defenders from your P1 AO, or hope that you can cap an unguarded spawnable at the P2

-fast swapping (i.e. switching towns faster than your enemy so that you can avoid fighting them)

 

If you don't want your game to play this way, then the game needs to be designed in such a way that ninja actions are detrimental, while team-based actions are central and beneficial.  The RPAT is a great example of this.  A defender who takes an RPAT out of town alone without support should be a bad/ineffective thing for the defenders to try and do.  Instead, it's usually a one-way ticket to 4 silent tank kills.  

 

If defense wasn't so easy, people wouldn't be so inclined to ninja when they attack.  

Great post defense is big time ez mode make offense easier is the key at this point i dont even care how detrimental things are in lowpop because of changes on offense/ews/ao’s adding some fog of war/reduced timers...quieter trucks or walkable ms’s from fbs only to reduce the insta army behind the lines because 1 guy walked around the flank and placed a dfru behind armor/guns....promote offense and get the action going

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3pzg runs TZ3 bring back your ANZACs Allied and give us a fight not a 6yeaaaaarzzzz whinefest again

It`s Allied whining that feeds our rolls rofl.

PROTIP: To defeat the Cyberdemon, shoot at it until it dies.

Edited by actonman

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FB flip-flop bug must skew a lot of beta testing feedback.

Overpop side has much higher probability of keeping town contested and avoiding the bug.

On lower pop side its frustrating beyond belief to lead an attack knowing if the town is uncontested you lose the FB and all momentum.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, arado234 said:

This campaign mapper cuts right through the hypocrisy. 

A bit cryptic- elaborate?

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AOs should be population based. 

Multiple towns fell yesterday due to the fact that there were simply not enough people to defend.  All depots lost without a mission posted in some cases. 

Some people may feel like heroes capping empty towns, but for the rest of us it's a bore and terrible gameplay. 

People can say this is a beta test as an excuse, but it'll happen the same or worse in the real campaign...like it's been done for years. 

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I said it years ago, it could be done with a simple script (just count players within radius of town every minute, start and stop some clocks, like amateur level programming skills needed), but then HC wouldn't have anything to do

also it would upset some people when their team had 0 AOs because none of them are on defense

and it would kill mole attacks

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Mole attacks are way too powerful. Everyone knows it, it works both ways of course but the OP side has the power to suck defenders into light ews town (ESPECIALLY huge towns like Gent etc) and then have a big coordinated attack in another target.

The fact that the devs cannot address this is damming.

Cap a cp...hide for 30 mins...cap another one. Yup people will pay for this! The real issue is the vet players will be forced to guard (which burns them out) and the other towns may or may not even have any coordinated defence.

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Still say 2 AOs at all times, more action and fun on map. (if sitting in a gray building for 6 minutes is fun....)

Yes, harder on low pop - but one side always going to be low pop most likely.  Can't code game around low pop - need to fix it.

 

However, I do agree make going to 3 AOs harder so that the first 2 AOs have good combat first.

 

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21 minutes ago, dropbear said:

Mole attacks are way too powerful. Everyone knows it, it works both ways of course but the OP side has the power to suck defenders into light ews town (ESPECIALLY huge towns like Gent etc) and then have a big coordinated attack in another target.

The fact that the devs cannot address this is damming.

Cap a cp...hide for 30 mins...cap another one. Yup people will pay for this! The real issue is the vet players will be forced to guard (which burns them out) and the other towns may or may not even have any coordinated defence.

Exactly. 

The 2 AO all the time crowd just like to cap empty towns and justify it as "action" lol. 

 

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On 4/27/2019 at 2:17 PM, david06 said:

it's a weekend afternoon and neither side can put EWS on more than one opposing town, despite a whopping 3 AOs per side

the tactical gameplay has been slowed down to such an extent that I'm not sure what the worry is, especially since there is supplies in every single town now

if TZ3 continues to have a disproportional influence now it's simply because prime time pops cannot move the map

NOef0RZ.jpg

i did literally this for a month. you'll never get anywhere with evidence and data.

you'll just turn into a salty bast@$% too...

 

it could be the simplest, most basic problem; the defense-only players will spin it into something insane.

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4 hours ago, david06 said:

I said it years ago, it could be done with a simple script (just count players within radius of town every minute, start and stop some clocks, like amateur level programming skills needed), but then HC wouldn't have anything to do

also it would upset some people when their team had 0 AOs because none of them are on defense

and it would kill mole attacks

jobs@corneredrats.com      come help put it in place

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1 hour ago, dropbear said:

Mole attacks are way too powerful. Everyone knows it, it works both ways of course but the OP side has the power to suck defenders into light ews town (ESPECIALLY huge towns like Gent etc) and then have a big coordinated attack in another target.

The fact that the devs cannot address this is damming.

Cap a cp...hide for 30 mins...cap another one. Yup people will pay for this! The real issue is the vet players will be forced to guard (which burns them out) and the other towns may or may not even have any coordinated defence.

S! Dropbear,

Gent Saturday Night:

That mole Ao attack diversion whatever u wanna call it, was 5 guys for the first 60+ mins, I was the one that set the fms and watched the mission spawn in tab entire time and ews notification the entire time since it was my mission. EWS was light for the first hour, myself and 4 other very experienced players that knew what to cap and when to cap were there. 

I would consider it a success since during that time we capped 4 other towns during a Saturday night primetime. Now if the defenders had more than 5 guys defending and my guess is there was many more than 5, i dont know what to say except watch the ews and it was light the entire time. 

I have been on the opposite side of the mole and yes it does suck however forcing everyone into ONE battle on a Saturday night is maybe not that much fun for everyone that plays. 

I will also say this and have witnesses to it; once the Gent attack got more than 5 guys on my fms and ews went heavy in Gent and was draining resources from our major plans I actually pulled my fms to help our side and get our players back on target and direction.  My guess was 90 mins in the fms started to get very active, 15+ or so guys running and capping. And once that was the case, we started to discuss it and i made the decision to pull it. 

As far as the mole being "too powerful" I won't disagree or debate it with you since in some aspects I feel you are correct. However both sides have ability and at that stage of the map it was an option. Actually in all honesty, the allied side has it better since Twerp and Brux are split now and Liege and Lux are not...which means more cps to cover for Liege and Lux. But yes Gent is that way too at that stage of map

60 mins in to mission, and we were being pretty successful with caps. I told people...we don't want the town because then the mole is on the other side and then we would have to track the mole, There were some mistakes made on defending side that allowed it to fester for so long.

When I drove the opel in, i actually didn't even know if an ao was going up...i was just bored and wanted to present the option to HC as a plan if they saw it fit to pursue. 

 

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Yup Kazee... was just too effective..allies, when I logged in, were 5-10 dropped to 4 inc myself then came right back up to around 15 when some squad came on. As long as leadership can control the mole and not make that the priority  (herding the cats), they are disproportionally successful.

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5 hours ago, dropbear said:

Cap a cp...hide for 30 mins...cap another one. Yup people will pay for this! The real issue is the vet players will be forced to guard (which burns them out) and the other towns may or may not even have any coordinated defence.

Yellow warning message kicked to target chat saying " _____ is being captured!" 

also another simple fix that has never been tried

it would be the opposite of the current optimal capture tactic, instead of one person capping a depot stealthily it would be best to form up as a team in order to hold the depot from the rush of defenders

You would also have to drastically reduce cap times though, like 1 minute tops

It would scale better at low pop as defenders would not have to sit in each depot

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people just let the mole happen cause it's boring

it's psy-ops in a video game

 

it's a planned softcap relying on boring the other side into not showing up

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Ninja ops already suffered a lot since 1 minute cap timer, reduce amounts of AO, INTEL messages spamming and the little-bunnies-white-skulls appearing on map.

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