Kilemall

88 AA bursts

15 posts in this topic

One of the big issues for the historical costing of spawnlists is that there is a difference between an item's economic value in RL vs. it's game value in 'game reality'.

 

Near as I can tell 88s are given a much bigger valuation then game performance would indicate, and a big part of that is the modern day blip on a map fed into the cockpit of a 1940s plane helping to kill 88s quickly.

 

But what if the 88 was actually functional in it's original intended role as an AA gun?

 

Time fused shells set to detonate an AA burst could make the 88 much more self-defensible and therefore viable and potentially worth their cost.

 

It would actually have it's full dual-purpose capability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine that the 88 suffers no more and no less than anything else marked on a map, thus I am not sure that can enter an equation of it's worth.

Understand I am not speaking against 'timed-fuse rounds'.

 

S!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Setting up a real flak battery is very difficult in RL, no way that players could do it. Not to mention the 88 was designed to shoot at large, slow bomber formations, and not fast moving fighters. Honestly thinking a fuzed charge would be a complete waste of dev resources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

One of the big issues for the historical costing of spawnlists is that there is a difference between an item's economic value in RL vs. it's game value in 'game reality'.

 

Near as I can tell 88s are given a much bigger valuation then game performance would indicate, and a big part of that is the modern day blip on a map fed into the cockpit of a 1940s plane helping to kill 88s quickly.

 

But what if the 88 was actually functional in it's original intended role as an AA gun?

 

Time fused shells set to detonate an AA burst could make the 88 much more self-defensible and therefore viable and potentially worth their cost.

 

It would actually have it's full dual-purpose capability.

I would like to have them be able to do AA duty, either via loadouts for ammo type, or a 2nd 88 model, though loadouts would probably be easier and less confusing
for people.

That said though, i do not know if that ability would be found terribly useful by the majority, in most situations
The fusing distance for those is a pretty good range out for minimal, so would not seem to help a lot with direct attack of the grass cutters, unless you hit them directly.
Not to mention 88's dont traverse and elevate fast enough to directly engage a plane well at close range.

And the part of AA that is does well is not accomplished by an individual gun, but a battery of guns working in close orchestration to make a FLAK wall
so while yea, this will kill a plane dead at 3km alt, its more a thing of you and your 10 or so buddies will kill the plane, but which one kills it is anyone's guess.
I could see a dedicated squad of guys who are like, we don't care who kills what, we only care about the results, perhaps doing it?
It would be awesome to watch a dedicated group throw up a flak wall over a front line AO, i think they would still need aid of small AA though
to deal with stuff trying to come in from behind or underneath the flak wall to vulch them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the game were to grow to a thousands active player then this is something you'd want and expect to be there. It's a mild injustice that the 88 doesn't serve it's main purpose in a game that aims to be historically authentic. even if now it would only be slightly useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, knucks said:

If the game were to grow to a thousands active player then this is something you'd want and expect to be there. It's a mild injustice that the 88 doesn't serve it's main purpose in a game that aims to be historically authentic. even if now it would only be slightly useful.

Very mild, indeed.  I would say that the 88 was far more feared in its 'secondary' role of killing ground vehicles, thus the lack of fused shells is not a historical injustice more than it is something that wasn't modeled initially due to the expectation that the 88 would be used more to kill ground vehicles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Consider how many large caliber (75mm/88mm/90mm) AA shells were fired per downed plane. Various accounts say, on average, 3000 or more. I don't think any game player is going to accept getting one kill per 3000 shots.

2. The minimum time setting for a time fuze shell of this kind was about half a second. Thus the minimum distance of the target to the gun would be about 500 meters. 

3. The effective damage radius for such shells was, I think, about a hundred meters. That's for a plausible chance to cause one fragment worth of damage, not for certainty of bringing down the target.

Quote

It would be awesome to watch a dedicated group throw up a flak wall over a front line AO 

4. If ten gunners set up to fire on parallel aim-paths so that their shells burst 200 meters apart, they're creating a "wall" about 2km wide. If each gun fires one shell every four seconds, and each shell is lethal for only an instant, and the targets move at say 120 meters a second, and you could determine the exact altitude of the targets and set the slant range to that altitude with sufficiently close tolerance, the "wall" only has about a 40% chance of causing one fragment of damage to each target flying through it.

Edited by jwilly
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, augetout said:

Very mild, indeed.  I would say that the 88 was far more feared in its 'secondary' role of killing ground vehicles, thus the lack of fused shells is not a historical injustice more than it is something that wasn't modeled initially due to the expectation that the 88 would be used more to kill ground vehicles.

Dont think in the BOF theater, there was a lot of need for heavy anti air until after the retaliation began
(kinda weird but yea, the allies bombed french and belgian targets)
In berlin on the other hand....

1 hour ago, jwilly said:

4. If ten gunners set up to fire on parallel aim-paths so that their shells burst 200 meters apart, they're creating a "wall" about 2km wide. If each gun fires one shell every four seconds, and each shell is lethal for only an instant, and the targets move at say 120 meters a second, and you could determine the exact altitude of the targets and set the slant range to that altitude with sufficiently close tolerance, the "wall" only has about a 40% chance of causing one fragment of damage to each target flying through it.

cool 40% chance of crew 1 hit in head, that gives me 60% chance of being blasted by something else
Knowing my luck, it's going to be the frag to the head

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fuzing adjustments for the big guns would probably end up hurting inf and light aa/atgs the most. It wouldn't be hard to home in on the distance to an AB or FMS, and maybe canister rounds would be made available. Don't know what the 88 could fire, but I believe the french 75mm fired canister. Would be revenge of the big guns. You wouldn't need a hilltop for camping an AB, it could easily prove problematic. Maybe they would have to be limited to only spawning from certain types of facilities.

Personally I like the idea. I once spawned near a factory under attack with a bofors and fired at a 111 as it flew overhead. It was very high and only visible for a few seconds though, would ideally have to lengthen the aa vis range to something akin to air and navy. 

That its not in game seems almost tragic since the aa guns already time out and explode, and some guns have range settings, so, turn the dial, pop the setting into the timer variable slot, and voila. 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Dont think in the BOF theater, there was a lot of need for heavy anti air until after the retaliation began
(kinda weird but yea, the allies bombed french and belgian targets)
In berlin on the other hand....

cool 40% chance of crew 1 hit in head, that gives me 60% chance of being blasted by something else
Knowing my luck, it's going to be the frag to the head

Or maybe a one gram fragment to the left wingtip. That however would be someone else, not you.

Quote

That its not in game seems almost tragic since the aa guns already time out and explode, and some guns have range settings, so, turn the dial, pop the setting into the timer variable slot, and voila. 

...3000 rounds per kill, on average.

At a round every four seconds, that'd be one kill every 3.3 hours. 

But, if you manually set the fuze-range according to what you're shooting at and where it will be when the shell arrives, and it's more like 6 seconds per round, that's one kill every 5 hours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, augetout said:

Very mild, indeed.  I would say that the 88 was far more feared in its 'secondary' role of killing ground vehicles, thus the lack of fused shells is not a historical injustice more than it is something that wasn't modeled initially due to the expectation that the 88 would be used more to kill ground vehicles.

I think there were many B-17 and B-24 crews that would take issue with your characterization.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jwilly said:

1. Consider how many large caliber (75mm/88mm/90mm) AA shells were fired per downed plane. Various accounts say, on average, 3000 or more. I don't think any game player is going to accept getting one kill per 3000 shots.

2. The minimum time setting for a time fuze shell of this kind was about half a second. Thus the minimum distance of the target to the gun would be about 500 meters. 

3. The effective damage radius for such shells was, I think, about a hundred meters. That's for a plausible chance to cause one fragment worth of damage, not for certainty of bringing down the target.

4. If ten gunners set up to fire on parallel aim-paths so that their shells burst 200 meters apart, they're creating a "wall" about 2km wide. If each gun fires one shell every four seconds, and each shell is lethal for only an instant, and the targets move at say 120 meters a second, and you could determine the exact altitude of the targets and set the slant range to that altitude with sufficiently close tolerance, the "wall" only has about a 40% chance of causing one fragment of damage to each target flying through it.

Keep in mind that all of us have 'killed' far more varied units over a longer time then ANYONE who actually fought the war (barring say, the nuclear bombers).  I don't think it's valid in a a forward area defense context, more a stat for hitting bombers at 20000 feet plus in barrages and against bomber EW techniques.

500 meters works.

Firing rate is consistently quoted for AA work as 20 rounds per minute, or 3 seconds per shot.  I think you can lay in a real nice flak wall.

The articles I'm reading are saying 200 yard burst with 1500 fragments.  So roughly 200 meter bursts, at the edges it would likely be as you characterize, but not closer in.

Given the higher ROF AND the bigger burst with probably more fragments, I think the chances are higher then you paint, but certainly not a sure thing.

 

No it would not be a sure thing.  But it would be more then now, requiring a direct hit and/or escorting bofors.  Or almost as good, throwing off attacking planes so they don't get a precise opposition free strafing/bomb run.

Edited by Kilemall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, blggles said:

Fuzing adjustments for the big guns would probably end up hurting inf and light aa/atgs the most. It wouldn't be hard to home in on the distance to an AB or FMS, and maybe canister rounds would be made available. Don't know what the 88 could fire, but I believe the french 75mm fired canister. Would be revenge of the big guns. You wouldn't need a hilltop for camping an AB, it could easily prove problematic. Maybe they would have to be limited to only spawning from certain types of facilities.

Personally I like the idea. I once spawned near a factory under attack with a bofors and fired at a 111 as it flew overhead. It was very high and only visible for a few seconds though, would ideally have to lengthen the aa vis range to something akin to air and navy. 

That its not in game seems almost tragic since the aa guns already time out and explode, and some guns have range settings, so, turn the dial, pop the setting into the timer variable slot, and voila. 

 

That's true about timed fuses, they could be used for timed bursts over targets and give us our real first taste of what real artillery would be like (I don't count naval artillery as I don't think they got the anti-in HE treatment). 

Long as we have fixed spawns, that limits just how much remote firepower we can allow to dump with precision on spawn points.  The real 88s were used that way from the beginning, as ersatz artillery in addition to AA and AT work.

 

An option is barometric fuses.  Set your alt, go.  Would be impossible to hit targets at the same or below the altitude of your guns,   I suppose it could be used against ABs on a hill.  A lot depends on what the fusing options actually are.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Merlin51 said:

Dont think in the BOF theater, there was a lot of need for heavy anti air until after the retaliation began
(kinda weird but yea, the allies bombed french and belgian targets)
In berlin on the other hand....

cool 40% chance of crew 1 hit in head, that gives me 60% chance of being blasted by something else
Knowing my luck, it's going to be the frag to the head

The Germans certainly came to France loaded for AA bear, the lack of effective CAS/tactical bombing just meant they didn't factor in air losses heavily, but they were certainly there which is of course why Rommel could dragoon them for Arras.

 

Here's a good overview of the gun and its history-

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/wwii-weapons-the-german-88mm-gun/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys clearly just aren't trying hard enough with the 88! None of these were AF camps.


88mm_Grey_Halo_Blen_Kill.jpg

C47_Kill_with_88.jpg

Havoc_Grey_Halo_88_Hit.jpg

Hawk_Kill_with_88.jpg

Bonus points:

50mm_2EA_Kills.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.