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riprend

Freshly Taken Town Supply

22 posts in this topic

This is the biggest thing bothering me about 1.36. Spend five hours slugging it out for a town, depleting 2-3 towns' supply behind you... take the town, and you waterfall in completely fresh supply over the course of an hour. If you resupplied from the towns behind the one that was taken, it can quickly become a new front cascade of completely fresh supply.

Would be much better IMO if there were a mechanism that determined the speed of the incoming supply based on the linking flags' ticket count.

 

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13 minutes ago, riprend said:

This is the biggest thing bothering me about 1.36. Spend five hours slugging it out for a town, depleting 2-3 towns' supply behind you... take the town, and you waterfall in completely fresh supply over the course of an hour. If you resupplied from the towns behind the one that was taken, it can quickly become a new front cascade of completely fresh supply.

Would be much better IMO if there were a mechanism that determined the speed of the incoming supply based on the linking flags' ticket count.

 

Ya, I though it was gonna be 6 hour trickle times for new capped towns, which largely eliminates what you are talking about, the successful cap roll.

 

I'm real aware of this possibility because of my role in Operation Honey Swarm, a massive Allied attack on Trier when it was new to the map and so were Stuarts, we fought all night long and didn't take it so didn't get the supply save, everything was used up 3 towns deep and so Axis rolled right through all that with fresh supply at each town.  I blame myself for that Allied campaign loss, we didn't come back from it morale-wise.

 

There is a case for successful caps should be rewarded, but if trickle timers are one hour for new cap then you eliminate the incentive for driving in rescue forces and overstock is far less attractive, being too much of a risk if you lose.

 

That being said, I wouldn't want to see your system in place because then there is very little reward for a successful cap.  I'd buffer the effect, not limit the victors to exactly what the losers lost in their attempts to rescue the town.

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I think it's also a pretty serious issue that the Allies can only receive their town ownership grace period when they successfully capture a town.

 

In a situation where the Allies are on their heels, unable to cap a town, and reforming their line (i.e. potentially the most useful time to change ownership), they will never receive a grace period.  

 

The Allies should also have that grace period available when they are losing towns too.  

 

Any time a garrison is newly activated the Allies should have that grace period.  

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1 hour ago, Capco said:

I think it's also a pretty serious issue that the Allies can only receive their town ownership grace period when they successfully capture a town.

 

In a situation where the Allies are on their heels, unable to cap a town, and reforming their line (i.e. potentially the most useful time to change ownership), they will never receive a grace period.  

 

The Allies should also have that grace period available when they are losing towns too.  

 

Any time a garrison is newly activated the Allies should have that grace period.  

You can change town at any time - with a big time-based penalty.  Any time a garrison swaps over (newly activated), there is a chance to set the nationality penalty free.

This was done explicitly to stop the possibility of Army swapping to get an instant new list of the current garrison was near empty.

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1 minute ago, B2K said:

You can change town at any time - with a big time-based penalty.  Any time a garrison swaps over (newly activated), there is a chance to set the nationality penalty free.

This was done explicitly to stop the possibility of Army swapping to get an instant new list of the current garrison was near empty.

What's the harm in doing it to a formerly inactive town that JUST becomes backline after losing a frontline town?  

 

I tried doing it to a newly activated rearline town and we still had the 15 hour timers.  

 

We also don't get the warning for newly activated backline towns in the same way that we get them for newly captured towns.

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

That being said, I wouldn't want to see your system in place because then there is very little reward for a successful cap.  I'd buffer the effect, not limit the victors to exactly what the losers lost in their attempts to rescue the town.

I meant, link the newly capped town's ticket delivery rate to the percentage of tickets outstanding in the victor's linking towns.

So let's say there's a base 2 hour flow-in. This could be modified up to 4 hours based on the number of outstanding tickets in the victor's linking towns.

I'd be supportive of a quick, 15 minute delivery of ~20% of the supply upon capture so that counters aren't quite so easy, to be followed by a more gradual system.

Edited by riprend

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The idea behind this is a kind of best compromise/least evil.

The abstraction is that when a town is taken, the supply from two towns back (town that launched attack, town behind that one that is now inactive) are all moving up into the new town.

The defender has the town adjacent to the one they lost, which will normally have decent supply remaining, and the town behind that one recently activated at 100%.

These roughly trade off.

 

It's an abstraction because actually moving the supply piece by piece is an extremely difficult undertaking, and would have delayed 1.36 for a long time.

 

I do agree on newly-activated towns for the defender getting the Allied grace period though.

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2 hours ago, riprend said:

I meant, link the newly capped town's ticket delivery rate to the percentage of tickets outstanding in the victor's linking towns.

So let's say there's a base 2 hour flow-in. This could be modified up to 4 hours based on the number of outstanding tickets in the victor's linking towns.

I'd be supportive of a quick, 15 minute delivery of ~20% of the supply upon capture so that counters aren't quite so easy, to be followed by a more gradual system.

Ya, that's what I thought you meant, and just no.

But in general I think the trickle timers should be slower, to allow for counterattacks and to slow down snake cuts that aren't mobile division driven.

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54 minutes ago, Chaoswzkd said:

The idea behind this is a kind of best compromise/least evil.

The abstraction is that when a town is taken, the supply from two towns back (town that launched attack, town behind that one that is now inactive) are all moving up into the new town.

The defender has the town adjacent to the one they lost, which will normally have decent supply remaining, and the town behind that one recently activated at 100%.

These roughly trade off.

 

It's an abstraction because actually moving the supply piece by piece is an extremely difficult undertaking, and would have delayed 1.36 for a long time.

 

I do agree on newly-activated towns for the defender getting the Allied grace period though.

Key question, do overstocks survive when a town goes off backside, do they survive in a town where it was taken so fast that the overstock isn't burned and it's retaken within a few hours, and is the list staying what it was + resup tickets at time of recapture or a full list each time re: the old fallback mechanism?

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1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

Key question, do overstocks survive when a town goes off backside, do they survive in a town where it was taken so fast that the overstock isn't burned and it's retaken within a few hours, and is the list staying what it was + resup tickets at time of recapture or a full list each time re: the old fallback mechanism?

Not sure I understand the question. For the given situation:

Town 1 FR - Town 2 FR - Town 3 DE

Are you asking "If France takes Town 3 and then immediately loses Town 3 so Town 1 flips inactive/active, what happens to overstock supply numbers in Town 1"?

If so, I don't know that answer.

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Ya, that's what I thought you meant, and just no.

But in general I think the trickle timers should be slower, to allow for counterattacks and to slow down snake cuts that aren't mobile division driven.

I'm not sure. I think its actually pretty well balanced. During BETA I checked this out and it takes ~10 minutes for the first resupply to roll in which accounts for ~20-25 infantry and several pieces of armor/ATG/AA, with new supply rolling in at 5-10 minute intervals. That seemed pretty reasonable to me since it makes counterattacks possible, but the counterattacking side needs to immediately attack and not dally for 30 minutes. Similarly, its not long enough to where you have no chance of defending a new captured town.

And as far as the draining supply, my experience has usually been that much of the "counterattack roll" supply isn't coming from the captured town, but supply that was brought from the backline forward and continuously carried forward. Usually the frontline town it beat to all hell, and it takes a long time to get decent armor numbers in a newly captured town. I don't know the exact timing, but I'll test it one of these days to see. Either way to me it adds an interesting dynamic where you sometimes have to simply call off an attack if you are chewing through too much supply; and on the flip side you need to have a feeling for how the enemy is doing and possibly press your advantage.

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5 hours ago, Chaoswzkd said:

Not sure I understand the question. For the given situation:

Town 1 FR - Town 2 FR - Town 3 DE

Are you asking "If France takes Town 3 and then immediately loses Town 3 so Town 1 flips inactive/active, what happens to overstock supply numbers in Town 1"?

If so, I don't know that answer.

Yes, that's one of the questions, along with if town 3 had overstock and was taken fast then counterattacked fast and back within an hour or two does Town 3 keep it's overstock?

And in all cases are the lists back to the state they were in awaiting resup tickets on the 6/10/12 whatever hour or do they get a fresh list?  I was under the impression the former, just checking.

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17 hours ago, Kilemall said:

if town 3 had overstock and was taken fast then counterattacked fast and back within an hour or two does Town 3 keep it's overstock?

And in all cases are the lists back to the state they were in awaiting resup tickets on the 6/10/12 whatever hour or do they get a fresh list?  I was under the impression the former, just checking.

The answer to both questions is no, because there is no supply history kept once a town flips owners.

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2 hours ago, Chaoswzkd said:

The answer to both questions is no, because there is no supply history kept once a town flips owners.

That answers the overstock questions, but does that extend to a fast retake?  Do we get a full fresh list?  If so, the fallback/recapture tactic to get supply back faster then normal is ON.

 

Now I don't mean the old .fallback, that wouldn't work even if the command flipped ABs as the town would still be not captured, but deliberately allowing an enemy to take a town after depleting both supplies, then immediately counterattacking.  If you get a fresh list, that's a major way to get local supply advantage for a night.

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Now I don't mean the old .fallback, that wouldn't work even if the command flipped ABs as the town would still be not captured, but deliberately allowing an enemy to take a town after depleting both supplies, then immediately counterattacking.  If you get a fresh list, that's a major way to get local supply advantage for a night.

Theoretically that is certainly possible, but does anyone currently in the game have the operational skill and organization to pull something like that off. Even back in the day I can't think of an example of that being successfully done. I remember times when you either lost the town or simply threw in the towel knowing the writing was on the wall with 20 rifles left in the spawn pool, and then happened to stage a successful counter-attack, but those were pretty rare IMHO, and certainly not pre-planned as a greater strategy.

I remember that slogging through an attritional meat grinder would leave me exhausted and happy that the battle was simply over, even if we happened to be on the losing side. I guess guys on the other side felt the same way.

Ironically in a way WWIIOL does a pretty good job of semi-simulating the war!

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

That answers the overstock questions, but does that extend to a fast retake?  Do we get a full fresh list? 

A fast retake would involve a town flipping, which completely resets the supply list. When it flips back, it also completely resets the supply list.

Allowing an opportunity to get all your supply back if you capped quickly enough was discussed, but the way thought to do it was that there would be a garrison for every town for each side, and only the town owner's one would be active. However, once the reality of garrisons got fleshed out, that would have led to absurd performance losses or completely breaking the game with cascading errors and display issues.

So that was scrapped in favor of an option that was playable, unless someone else figured out a good way to do it. There are some really smart cookies working with CRS on this thing, including some people on the staff list that never really post or interact with the community so they're often overlooked.

 

At least one other way comes to mind that'd be conceptually easy (dump it in memory, re-use it if it exists if town switches hands to that country, delete it after x minutes/hours), but would probably be a huge pain to actually do.

Edited by Chaoswzkd

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4 hours ago, Chaoswzkd said:

A fast retake would involve a town flipping, which completely resets the supply list. When it flips back, it also completely resets the supply list.

Allowing an opportunity to get all your supply back if you capped quickly enough was discussed, but the way thought to do it was that there would be a garrison for every town for each side, and only the town owner's one would be active. However, once the reality of garrisons got fleshed out, that would have led to absurd performance losses or completely breaking the game with cascading errors and display issues.

So that was scrapped in favor of an option that was playable, unless someone else figured out a good way to do it. There are some really smart cookies working with CRS on this thing, including some people on the staff list that never really post or interact with the community so they're often overlooked.

 

At least one other way comes to mind that'd be conceptually easy (dump it in memory, re-use it if it exists if town switches hands to that country, delete it after x minutes/hours), but would probably be a huge pain to actually do.

Mkay, well Xoom was talking like that was a thing, precisely I think to avoid the whole fallback tactic thing, but I suspected it might not be doable, especially in light of the need for Allied country management.

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4 hours ago, aismov said:

Theoretically that is certainly possible, but does anyone currently in the game have the operational skill and organization to pull something like that off. Even back in the day I can't think of an example of that being successfully done. I remember times when you either lost the town or simply threw in the towel knowing the writing was on the wall with 20 rifles left in the spawn pool, and then happened to stage a successful counter-attack, but those were pretty rare IMHO, and certainly not pre-planned as a greater strategy.

I remember that slogging through an attritional meat grinder would leave me exhausted and happy that the battle was simply over, even if we happened to be on the losing side. I guess guys on the other side felt the same way.

Ironically in a way WWIIOL does a pretty good job of semi-simulating the war!

For about a glorious year or two, primetime Allies did this all the time, but with the help of the .fallback command.

It was so powerful a tactic that for a time you couldn't risk moling, because an enemy could trigger fallback when you were just poking at a town, and all of a sudden they are set to get the town back and have fresh supply in your face.

Liege was a particular fear, you couldn't afford to give a fresh supply there as the Allied position would be blown off the map, so I often had people poke around to keep Axis attacks manageable but not setoff a logistical disaster.

There was even an Allied General who took the mantle of Doctor Fallback as he specialized in these operations.  I wanna say Gonzowcs, but I need to do a search.

Yep, there it is, circa 2006, I think it was more a 2004-2006 thing when .fallback for base supply was active, and I had the name right-

 

The side that has it's act together best with HC and squads can gain major advantage with this ability.

Edited by Kilemall

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Oh ok, I see what you mean. Yeah the .fallback I agree with. I thought you were referring to letting the enemy cap your town in a "controlled" fashion which is a different kettle of fish.

IIRC the .fallback command could be done even if only one CP was controlled by the enemy, so you .fallback, but still have all the linking CPs available to spawn, quickly recap the AB (usually already had AB pre-stacked with defenders before the fallback) and liberate town. Now I don't remember but I think you had to do a .HAAC before you could activate .fallback, but my memory escapes me.

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11 hours ago, aismov said:

Oh ok, I see what you mean. Yeah the .fallback I agree with. I thought you were referring to letting the enemy cap your town in a "controlled" fashion which is a different kettle of fish.

IIRC the .fallback command could be done even if only one CP was controlled by the enemy, so you .fallback, but still have all the linking CPs available to spawn, quickly recap the AB (usually already had AB pre-stacked with defenders before the fallback) and liberate town. Now I don't remember but I think you had to do a .HAAC before you could activate .fallback, but my memory escapes me.

No the sequence was .overrun, which I seem to recall had either a timer for veto or a vote, THEN you could do a .fallback.  ABs flipped to enemy, FBs if any to friendly towns opened up, and the race was on.

 

The precision timing control of it is what allowed it to be so devastating, it really did kill off moling for a couple years, which in one sense was nice as people had to REALLY show up to fight, else just one little depot/city take could turn into a free resupply nightmare very quickly.

 

.HAAC, or Hold At All Costs, was the flipside tactical command to .FALLBACK.  It opened up all the depots to FULL AB supply.  it was too powerful as it made the defense REALLY strong on demand, only limit was 2 HAACs an hour.  I feel the command should have come with a risk, like a flag in HAAC mode should bounce to training if the AB is taken.  Modern day with garrisons, I guess I would have the bases taken kill off the garrison spawning even if there are depot spawns left.

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LOL yeah I remember the HAAC firehose. Beyond silly.

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On 4/18/2019 at 6:48 AM, Kilemall said:

For about a glorious year or two, primetime Allies did this all the time, but with the help of the .fallback command.

It was so powerful a tactic that for a time you couldn't risk moling, because an enemy could trigger fallback when you were just poking at a town, and all of a sudden they are set to get the town back and have fresh supply in your face.

Liege was a particular fear, you couldn't afford to give a fresh supply there as the Allied position would be blown off the map, so I often had people poke around to keep Axis attacks manageable but not setoff a logistical disaster.

There was even an Allied General who took the mantle of Doctor Fallback as he specialized in these operations.  I wanna say Gonzowcs, but I need to do a search.

Yep, there it is, circa 2006, I think it was more a 2004-2006 thing when .fallback for base supply was active, and I had the name right-

 

The side that has it's act together best with HC and squads can gain major advantage with this ability.

Yep that's correct. It required a ton of organisation in allowing the enemy to cap a cp and immediately have 20 guys camp the bunker then issue .fallback and follow up by recapping ofc. Wasn't there a manual in how to type all 9 characters of the command? genius level management... /s

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