pfmosquito

The Hunt for Kgarner; or, The Humiliation and Redemption of PF Mosquito

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Kgarner was parked on a hill SE of Hastiere, about 1.5k out. He proved impervious to everything that hit him, while from his lofty position, he could dispatch everyone at ease. Seeing that the fate of Hast rested on the ability to control the hills, I attempted to dislodge him. This ultimately meant driving all the way from Dinant, to the north, flanking wide to the east, and coming up literally behind him. I approached as close to about 150m, and then fired.

closing-in-on-kgarner-1-SShot741.jpg

Fired from this distance...

kgarner-hunt-2-SShot742.jpg

Astonishingly, after dealing devastation to him, generating smoke, and dumping a bunch of rounds into him--actually getting the kill, he turns and fires on me.  (I should have maybe killed all his ammo before engaging).  Sortie results show me getting the kill, with him killing me.

kgarner-kills-me-after-being-shot-point-

Ridiculous, indeed.

WELL.  I was not going to let THAT stand.  So I mounted up again from Dinant and did the same thing.  I approached more from the south this time, getting a clear shot at his tracks and the rear at an angle.  This time, he was not caught unawares. He already had his turret facing me.   I used the crest of the hill and concealed my position by a bush, which I fired through until I saw a great explosion!  Unfortunately, as I drove up to gloat over his smoking body, I discovered that what had gone boom was not him, but the OPEL, which was obscured by the bush I was firing on him through.  Before I figured out what had happened, the one who went boom was ME.  The humiliation.

WELL.  I was not going to let THAT stand.   The return trip took longer for a variety of reasons, not to mention that this time there were other Tigers on the hills between him and I which I had to avoid.  I vowed to do what it took to have my revenge.  When I finally arrived, he was again expecting me.  I fired from a little further away, again from a slightly 'hull down' posture.  As he fired over my head, I re-positioned, and hit him again.  Then I displaced again, and hit him again.  Now there are JUs and 110s overhead.  I feared they had been called for help.  This diminished by ability to really close in for the kill.  I fired smoke into him to mask my movement from him, put in a few more shots, and displaced. When the smoke cleared this is what I saw:

kgarner-likely-dead-SShot744.jpg

I crept up to him as delicately as I could, hugging what tree lines I could find, before finally verifying, and I mean VERIFYING, that he was dead.  THEN, I gloated over his carcass!

kgarner-hunt-i-stand-over-his-carcass.jp

I couldn't stay long due to the EA above, and plus there was still a battle going on for the last depot we held on the east side of the river.  There wasn't time to spare, so I made haste to lend a hand there while it still mattered, and was bombed by a JU for my efforts.  However, although it took 2 hours to do it, my main objective was achieved:  kgarner was dead by my hand.

Below are the sortie results for your enjoyment.

kgarner-killed-me-lots.jpg

 

kgarner-sortie-results.jpg

[Link to his sortie]

Edited by pfmosquito

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well done!!!!!!!!! perhaps kgarner will explain how he is so good...….

p.s. I know you were at the same town as me but couldn't find you on the map.

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Way to go, very impressive resolve you put on display!

If i am seeing the one photo correctly ... it looks like his tiger is turned broadside to the main direction he intended to direct fire on. He was using his tank to shield his opel .... smart, but if that is true, just shows ya how care-free you can be with a tiger at distance in this tier ..... to just give up your side like that.

Or .. perhaps you snapped the photo as his turret was turning towards you ?

Edited by choad
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No problem, Mike.  I was 2k away when I was chatting with you.  I wouldn't have been on your map unless you zoomed way out.

Choad:  you are seeing the photo correctly.  That was in fact how he had his tank positioned throughout.

In one of my earlier sorties, I actually drove all the way from Flavion and put a bunch of rounds on him from the far west hill.  However, from where I was at, and how he was positioned, it was difficult to hit him except on his front armor.  As I was drawing this conclusion and trying to re-position, he killed me.  This is why I decided to drive from Dinant instead.  I knew I needed to get an angle on him behind his armor, and that was not possible unless I came from the east. 

At that point, it must ultimately be my fault things went wrong.  I trusted the fact that I was very close to him and hitting him in the rear and rear treads, and assumed this would do the trick.  It did indeed get me the kill, but left him alive.  Next time, I will make sure I'm better protected before laying into a tiger.  You'd think being close enough to reach out and touch the tiger would be close enough, but evidently not.

Edited by pfmosquito

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Good story.

Congrats to both Pfmosquito and Kgarner.

 

S!

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was an intense 206 min sortie..... you took out my engine on the 2nd flanking attempt which is probably why you got the kill.  The 3rd time I couldn't elevate my gun low enough along the hill crest to get a shot lol..... sitting duck after the ms went down and everyone was to busy scrambling in givet and hast to help.  Big thanks to suppo and shallow for keeping full of ammo though!  

 

Ps.  Tiger in this tier is pretty crazy ....., especially against brit equipment.  I don't think ya'll even have a gun that can kill a kitty at 1000m+

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Which is right, the Tiger should stay impenetrable at this stage frontally past 900m and past 1300m for the sides. Rear hits... Well.... Engine dies. But this is a GENEROUS estimate compared to HISTORICAL FACTS:

"Should".

A report prepared by the Waffenamt-Prüfwesen 1 gave the calculated probability of perforation at range, on which various adversaries would be defeated reliably at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round.

The Wa Pruef report estimated that the Tiger's 88 mm gun would be capable of penetrating the differential case of an American M4 Sherman from 2,100 m (1.3 mi) and the turret front from 1,800 m (1.1 mi), but the Tiger's 88 mm gun would not penetrate the upper glacis plate at any range. The M4 Sherman's 75 mm gun would not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range, and needed to be within 100 m to achieve a side penetration against the 80 mm upper hull superstructure. The Sherman's upgraded 76 mm gun might penetrate the Tiger's driver's front plate from 600 m, the nose from 400 m and the turret front from 700 m.[51] The M3 90 mm cannon used as a towed anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun, and later mounted in the M36 tank destroyer and finally the late-war M26 Pershing, could penetrate the Tiger's front plate at a range of 1,000 m using standard ammunition, and from beyond 2,000 m when using HVAP.[52]

Soviet ground trial testing conducted in May 1943 determined that the 8.8 cm KwK 36 gun could pierce the T-34-76 frontal beam nose of 140 mm thickness from 1500 m, and the front hull from 1500 m. A hit to the driver's hatch would force it to collapse inward and break apart.[53][54][f] According to the WaPrüf, the Soviet T-34-85's upper glacis and turret front armour would be defeated between 100 and 1,400 m (0.062 and 0.870 mi), while the T-34's 85 mm gun would penetrate the front of a Tiger between 200 and 500 m (0.12 and 0.31 mi).[51] The 120 mm hull armour of the Soviet IS-2 model 1943 would be defeated between 100 and 300 m (0.062 and 0.186 mi) at the driver's front plate and nose.[51] The IS-2's 122 mm gun could penetrate the Tiger's front armour from between 500 and 1,500 m (0.31 and 0.93 mi).[51] However, according to Steven Zaloga, the IS-2 and Tiger I could each knock the other out in normal combat distances below 1,000 m.[55] At longer ranges, the performance of each respective tank against each other was dependent on the crew and the combat situation.[56]

The British Churchill IV would become vulnerable to the Tiger at between 1,100 and 1,700 m (0.68 and 1.06 mi), its strongest point being the nose and its weakest the turret. According to an STT document dated April 1944, it was estimated that the British 17-pounder, as used on the Sherman Firefly, firing its normal APCBC ammunition, would penetrate the turret front and driver's visor plate of the Tiger out to 1,900 yards (1,700 m).[51]

When engaging targets, Tiger crews were encouraged to angle the hull position 45 degrees to the Mahlzeit Stellung of 10 ½ or 1 ½ o'clock. This would maximize the effective front hull armour to 180mm and side hull to 140mm, making the Tiger impervious to any Allied gun up to 152 mm.[57][58] Unlike the lighter Panzer IV and Panther tanks, the Tiger's thick side armour gave a degree of confidence of immunity from flank attacks. The tank was also immune to Soviet anti-tank rifle fire to the sides and rear. Its large calibre 8.8 cm provided superior fragmentation and high explosive content over the 7.5 cm KwK 42 gun. Therefore, comparing the Tiger with the Panther, for supporting the infantry and destroying fortifications, the Tiger offered superior firepower. It was also key to dealing with towed anti-tank guns, according to German tank commander Otto Carius:

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21 minutes ago, shagher said:

Which is right, the Tiger should stay impenetrable at this stage frontally past 900m and past 1300m for the sides. Rear hits... Well.... Engine dies. But this is a GENEROUS estimate compared to HISTORICAL FACTS:

"Should".

A report prepared by the Waffenamt-Prüfwesen 1 gave the calculated probability of perforation at range, on which various adversaries would be defeated reliably at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round.

The Wa Pruef report estimated that the Tiger's 88 mm gun would be capable of penetrating the differential case of an American M4 Sherman from 2,100 m (1.3 mi) and the turret front from 1,800 m (1.1 mi), but the Tiger's 88 mm gun would not penetrate the upper glacis plate at any range. The M4 Sherman's 75 mm gun would not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range, and needed to be within 100 m to achieve a side penetration against the 80 mm upper hull superstructure. The Sherman's upgraded 76 mm gun might penetrate the Tiger's driver's front plate from 600 m, the nose from 400 m and the turret front from 700 m.[51] The M3 90 mm cannon used as a towed anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun, and later mounted in the M36 tank destroyer and finally the late-war M26 Pershing, could penetrate the Tiger's front plate at a range of 1,000 m using standard ammunition, and from beyond 2,000 m when using HVAP.[52]

Soviet ground trial testing conducted in May 1943 determined that the 8.8 cm KwK 36 gun could pierce the T-34-76 frontal beam nose of 140 mm thickness from 1500 m, and the front hull from 1500 m. A hit to the driver's hatch would force it to collapse inward and break apart.[53][54][f] According to the WaPrüf, the Soviet T-34-85's upper glacis and turret front armour would be defeated between 100 and 1,400 m (0.062 and 0.870 mi), while the T-34's 85 mm gun would penetrate the front of a Tiger between 200 and 500 m (0.12 and 0.31 mi).[51] The 120 mm hull armour of the Soviet IS-2 model 1943 would be defeated between 100 and 300 m (0.062 and 0.186 mi) at the driver's front plate and nose.[51] The IS-2's 122 mm gun could penetrate the Tiger's front armour from between 500 and 1,500 m (0.31 and 0.93 mi).[51] However, according to Steven Zaloga, the IS-2 and Tiger I could each knock the other out in normal combat distances below 1,000 m.[55] At longer ranges, the performance of each respective tank against each other was dependent on the crew and the combat situation.[56]

The British Churchill IV would become vulnerable to the Tiger at between 1,100 and 1,700 m (0.68 and 1.06 mi), its strongest point being the nose and its weakest the turret. According to an STT document dated April 1944, it was estimated that the British 17-pounder, as used on the Sherman Firefly, firing its normal APCBC ammunition, would penetrate the turret front and driver's visor plate of the Tiger out to 1,900 yards (1,700 m).[51]

When engaging targets, Tiger crews were encouraged to angle the hull position 45 degrees to the Mahlzeit Stellung of 10 ½ or 1 ½ o'clock. This would maximize the effective front hull armour to 180mm and side hull to 140mm, making the Tiger impervious to any Allied gun up to 152 mm.[57][58] Unlike the lighter Panzer IV and Panther tanks, the Tiger's thick side armour gave a degree of confidence of immunity from flank attacks. The tank was also immune to Soviet anti-tank rifle fire to the sides and rear. Its large calibre 8.8 cm provided superior fragmentation and high explosive content over the 7.5 cm KwK 42 gun. Therefore, comparing the Tiger with the Panther, for supporting the infantry and destroying fortifications, the Tiger offered superior firepower. It was also key to dealing with towed anti-tank guns, according to German tank commander Otto Carius:

yes..... especially true for kittys.  But, ultimately true for every tank in-game.  Best to park with the corner of your tank aimed at wherever you expect fire to come from..... not direct front hull down.  The angle increases the armor in thickness and also causes incoming rounds to bounce given the angle...... took at least 50 rounds .... with plink and view shake.... only damage to crew was the rear shots from pf that ended up causing the flame.

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Kgarner knows when to not play infantry.  Wiseman.  We need these over here. 

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1.36 actually makes tanking relevant again....... THAT is my favorite change in gameplay functionality as of 1.36 release.

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13 minutes ago, kgarner said:

1.36 actually makes tanking relevant again....... THAT is my favorite change in gameplay functionality as of 1.36 release.

Are you sure that are you referring to 1.36 and not the new historical 1/2 tier approach?

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Well, I can testify that nothing I hit the Tiger with frontally, at any range, dented it.  :)

I needed some good ol' fashioned Tom Hanks Sticky Bombs maybe.  :)

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Hastiere was a great fight.  The tank battle for the bridge was great.  Shermans battling 4Gs/Stugs at the bridge was a slug fest.  We had to stay hidden knowing Kgarner's Tiger was overlooking the town. 

I actually took a page from Kgarner's plan and towed a 6lber from Flavion and setup on the Hill East of the river and South of town.  Setup ammo crates for the 6 lber and drove the truck in to setup a FMS for the East Cps.

I assume the Axis just ran out of supply in town.  A classic attrition battle.  A great tank battle.

 

S!

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4 hours ago, pfmosquito said:

No problem, Mike.  I was 2k away when I was chatting with you.  I wouldn't have been on your map unless you zoomed way out.

Choad:  you are seeing the photo correctly.  That was in fact how he had his tank positioned throughout.

In one of my earlier sorties, I actually drove all the way from Flavion and put a bunch of rounds on him from the far west hill.  However, from where I was at, and how he was positioned, it was difficult to hit him except on his front armor.  As I was drawing this conclusion and trying to re-position, he killed me.  This is why I decided to drive from Dinant instead.  I knew I needed to get an angle on him behind his armor, and that was not possible unless I came from the east. 

At that point, it must ultimately be my fault things went wrong.  I trusted the fact that I was very close to him and hitting him in the rear and rear treads, and assumed this would do the trick.  It did indeed get me the kill, but left him alive.  Next time, I will make sure I'm better protected before laying into a tiger.  You'd think being close enough to reach out and touch the tiger would be close enough, but evidently not.

I think that a zook can kill a tiger if you hit the gas tank looking cover in the rear a sherm should too. what are your thoughts about if a tank catches on fire there is a message to abandon or die.

 

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I'd like to think that the ten minutes or so I kept his guns trained behind him instead of on the town below, I managed to accomplish something for the team even if I couldn't take him out right away.  It was that same thought that had me kicking myself for not taking out his ammo crates and opel before shooting him.  Think of all I could have saved... "I could have done more."

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20 hours ago, pfmosquito said:

I'd like to think that the ten minutes or so I kept his guns trained behind him instead of on the town below, I managed to accomplish something for the team even if I couldn't take him out right away.  It was that same thought that had me kicking myself for not taking out his ammo crates and opel before shooting him.  Think of all I could have saved... "I could have done more."

there, there its ok.

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No no it is NOT    :P

 

He Should whip himself 50 times!

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Here is why you should always be at a 45 degree angle when attacking because the code only works on 90 degree angles or straight on shots if you will. So being at a 45 degree attack angle will deflect almost every incoming round. Now you know why I always park my dd at a 45 degree angle of attack same goes for armor.

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7 minutes ago, sgthenning said:

Here is why you should always be at a 45 degree angle when attacking because the code only works on 90 degree angles or straight on shots if you will. So being at a 45 degree attack angle will deflect almost every incoming round. Now you know why I always park my dd at a 45 degree angle of attack same goes for armor.

Umm I don't understand your reference to the code only working at 90 degree angles.  The code IS working with angled tanks cause angled that way is a better 'slope' just as much as frontal slope and so you have a higher effective armor value. 

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8 hours ago, sgthenning said:

Here is why you should always be at a 45 degree angle when attacking because the code only works on 90 degree angles or straight on shots if you will. So being at a 45 degree attack angle will deflect almost every incoming round. Now you know why I always park my dd at a 45 degree angle of attack same goes for armor.

Being angled to an opposing shooter is good, but this statement is not correct.
The code can and does factor any angle and the outcome of hitting X armor plate with Y projectile @ °ZZ angle, it works perfectly fine at many things besides
a °90 AOI, most killing shots in game are much less stellar than an impact that perfect, especially as range increases.

Angle is good, but that only goes so far.
If you have a vickers facing an 88, you should probably hope your angle is nearly parallel so the round maybe has a chance to ricochet
(You should probably also run, really really fast)

You still have to factor in all things, because the game will.
Not all of you will be sitting in a °45 wedge.
Still have to factor in, what is shooting at me, what is my armor, can it overmatch me, can it spall me enough to shotgun my crew
what parts do i have that are not playing the wedge game, do i have a shot trap, do i have nothing but air blocking my hull
and how many of his friends are creeping around to a place that is not angled etc
  

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I thought shot traps don't work cause there is no ricochet, pen on first hit or no go.  Right?  Wrong?

 

Turret rings too.

Edited by Kilemall

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