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kgarner

Cap timers and Population

81 posts in this topic

which makes skill basically irrelevant........ as even the best players only manage 4:1 kills on average..... much less when the K/D is only defined by cp battles.  More the tip top probably only being 1.5:1 or at best 2:1

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2 hours ago, Jsilec said:

Ya cant factor in certain degrees of difficulty to the cap timers...what if i am clearing a cp alone and i have to kill off 4 ei and a cutter does that get me a faster recap because i pulled a chuck norris manuever?maybe

Earned success has to be a factor in all this equally as any fairness.  There is no game if you cannot win.  That counts for sides, and for whoever is underpop OR overpop.

Edited by Kilemall

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Just now, kgarner said:

which makes skill basically irrelevant........ as even the best players only manage 4:1 kills on average..... much less when the K/D is only defined by cp battles.  More the tip top probably only being 1.5:1 or at best 2:1

Simplistic view based on incomplete understanding of the system and parameters, you're only considering one case example.  Let's get the rest of it before we dig into what it should be.

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2 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Simplistic view based on incomplete understanding of the system and parameters, you're only considering one case example.  Let's get the rest of it before we dig into what it should be.

if the defender can spawn twice as much as the VERY BEST players can kill (in a given CT)........... then there is an obvious imbalance

Edited by kgarner

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Lets say I am defending a depo.  I spawn in.... takes 10 secs to get to the cp... another 20 sec to either kill or be killed.  Even with balanced CT.  I can get 9 spawn-in and attempts to clear that cp before the attackers get the cap off.  that means 1 attacker VS 1 defender is 9:1.  How often does anyone get 9 kills in a cp attempting a cap? the answer is very rarely. 

The attacker coming from the ms's needs about 2 mins just to get to the cp.  So if me and my buddy make it to the cp.  He dies and I live.  I have to kill 5 ei before he can make it back to the cp to help.  If there are 2 players defending that spawn thats 10 ei i have to contend with before my single buddy makes it back to help.  These are impossible odds.

Edited by kgarner

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11 minutes ago, kgarner said:

if the defender can spawn twice as much as the VERY BEST players can kill (in a given CT)........... then there is an obvious imbalance

It's not that simple.  You have to consider transit times, fewer opportunities for underpop to make it to a target on offense or defense in one piece, overpop having extra people to kill FBs or defend FBs, overpop having time to bring superior firepower to offense or defense with tanks- lot of variables here, and again we don't know the sample rates, that matters too, particularly with people getting killed and altering the ratio dynamically all the time.

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and all i am really trying to say is......... if i do kill those 5 or 10 ei and my buddy does make it back to the cp after dying...... the bonus in CT should at least be worth what it took to achieve that.  

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10 minutes ago, kgarner said:

Lets say I am defending a depo.  I spawn in.... takes 10 secs to get to the cp... another 20 sec to either kill or be killed.  Even with balanced CT.  I can get 9 spawn-in and attempts to clear that cp before the attackers get the cap off.  that means 1 attacker VS 1 defender is 9:1.  How often does anyone get 9 kills in a cp attempting a cap? the answer is very rarely. 

The attacker coming from the ms's needs about 2 mins just to get to the cp.  So if me and my buddy make it to the cp.  He dies and I live.  I have to kill 5 ei before he can make it back to the cp to help.  If there are 2 players defending that spawn thats 10 ei i have to contend with before my single buddy makes it back to help.  These are impossible odds.

Ridiculous simplicty again.  The attacker chooses which depot to attack, the defender may or may not be there.  That's an issue for underpop jumping around to all depots to check capture, not able to get to non-depot facilities that quickly, or overpop trying to defend and if not guarding everything the underpop gets faster timer before overpop can get there.

Defense SHOULD have an advantage, the usual factor cited is attacker must have 3:1 force (numbers, firepower or some combination.  Barring hybrid brigades, the size of towns won't yield a superiority supply except the biggest of more then 2.5:1.  Since ToEs isn't there to create dynamic supply instability or defense factos and we all demand even supply lists, the only thing left is fast turnaround supply.  Which is where the cap timers could be throttled down if SD is part of it, plus other options uncoded at the moment but could be explored.

 

Keep in mind that depot is also throttled, whereas the FMS is not.

 

By your reasoning depots can never be taken.  Yet.  They are.  Hmmm.  More to it then you are representing.

Edited by Kilemall
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if a depo is defended.  that 1 defender has a 9:1 advantage against 1 attacker..... all other variables aside..... that's stupid

Edited by kgarner

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1 minute ago, kgarner said:

3:1 would be realistic........ 9:1 is not

Ridiculous.

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25 minutes ago, kgarner said:

if the defender can spawn twice as much as the VERY BEST players can kill (in a given CT)

 

11 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

It's not that simple

it is...

10s to spawn in and clear, vs 60s-120s for someone to walk from the FMS.

even spawning from the AB is 20-30 vs 60-120

 

super duper simple math.

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9 minutes ago, major0noob said:

 

it is...

10s to spawn in and clear, vs 60s-120s for someone to walk from the FMS.

even spawning from the AB is 20-30 vs 60-120

 

super duper simple math.

If the play on the ground where as you guys present them, nothing would ever be capped.  BUT IT IS, and even towns are capped, whether overpop or underpop.  So clearly it's not that simple.

 

But you guys seem to want your easy mode caps, so nothing I say matters, even though I've already pointed out the inherent advantages of the attacker as built in, particularly  overpop.

 

Let's see what the facts are, THEN run through the scenarios.

 

BTW I do think there are things wrong with CT/SD as is, and remember I want to open up attacking to be easier.  But we can't sacrifice underpop play on the altar of waaah so let's get the facts, make sure of what the levers are, then work towards a solution rather then an Iwant.

 

Edited by Kilemall
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my scenario is assuming the cp is defended from the start........ in real time gameplay, often they are not, as most of the PB get bored sitting in a CP waiting for ei to show up......  

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Just now, kgarner said:

my scenario is assuming the cp is defended from the start........ in real time gameplay, often they are not, as most of the PB get bored sitting in a CP waiting for ei to show up......  

Which at a certain pop vs. town size will happen, but often not as either the town in play is too ;arge for the pop on hand, or other more active AOs pull off people and even spawnables go unguarded yes.

 

Any timer ratios also has to factor in things like transit times for both attackers and defenders to lost facilities, opportunity movement for underpop restricted because of superior forces to execute cutoffs either to depot or across town to other facilities, overpop having more people in planes and tanks and FB busting/D and still able to take things, AO calc splitting attacks and Ds- a whole host of things to consider when deciding what is the 'right' ratio.

 

Right now though I think there is a disconnect between SD and CT and I want to get that nailed down, if it is like I suspect then that explains a lot of the unreality we see in action vs. what the system is telling/imposing/giving us impression of.

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the best part about the capture timers is that the 20-second capture bonus that you get from an additional capper can be less than the additional penalty you get from being just one more person overpop

so getting another person spawned in and assisting the team in the depot can actually result in a net increase lol

1 hour ago, kgarner said:

which makes skill basically irrelevant........ as even the best players only manage 4:1 kills on average..... much less when the K/D is only defined by cp battles.  More the tip top probably only being 1.5:1 or at best 2:1

yes it is nearly pointless to try and capture defended depots

much better to find an empty depot and just go AFK for several minutes

the rules encourage the exact opposite of forming up in teams and attacking a single point

 

the game went from the defender being able to spawn twice, maybe three times before a depot was captured (1 minute radio) to 10+ times yet there hasn't been a single change in the terrain

used to be a thin brittle frontline, now every town has supply yet the same awful rules are still in place, as if some towns falling in TZ3 will break the map

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yes team play should be rewarded.... which is why the multiplier should be increased.  If you have more in the cp you should get more than a 7% bump in CT

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1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

But you guys seem to want your easy mode caps, so nothing I say matters

we hear ya, but your being stubborn as well

 

it really is simple math, what kgarner said is true: allies don't show up to DO's and leave CP's unguarded.

 

i was the other defender at haybes, got 2 FMS's, a truck, and some EI's while the other guy went for the FMS attacking the spawnables. we did an outstanding job, but just 2 guys defending a p1 is is a failure on the allied side.

we only got reinforced when 3 CP's fell (including 2 spawns). allies are getting soft capped with even pop, nothing's gonna fix stupid.

on the other hand, when a defense is done (axis at our AO's) the fights bog down fast.

 

at least softcaps provide activity near the end, the regular battles are lacking.

Edited by major0noob

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The fights bog down in general because they started with a ninja cap! For better or worse, BOTH sides don't construct attacks anymore. One fms is NOT an attack!

We don't  FIGHT  our way in anymore, unless one side is sooo overpop that they cannot get ppl out of the towns to find ems, atgs, ets etc.

It is not a lost art...just seems we have lost a lot of great tactical leaders on both sides. We all want those fights that go for hours  with both sides having a chance to win if they take it. OICs need to step up.

The game shines when we have huge battles.where one side can lose and still say what a great fight - rather than the other side capped all our undefended cps then camped our AB.

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48 minutes ago, dropbear said:

The fights bog down in general because they started with a ninja cap! For better or worse, BOTH sides don't construct attacks anymore. One fms is NOT an attack!

We don't  FIGHT  our way in anymore, unless one side is sooo overpop that they cannot get ppl out of the towns to find ems, atgs, ets etc.

It is not a lost art...just seems we have lost a lot of great tactical leaders on both sides. We all want those fights that go for hours  with both sides having a chance to win if they take it. OICs need to step up.

The game shines when we have huge battles.where one side can lose and still say what a great fight - rather than the other side capped all our undefended cps then camped our AB.

It does happen but not nearly enough...the increase in ao’s has bumped up the action alot in terms of cps capped and close quarters combat but has decreased the need for combined arms as armor while still very effective has been slow to get to the fight when its needed and atgs at do’s is almost a waste unless u get out early since u get sniped shot up quickly...atgs on ao’s have been highly effective from ms’s as armor doesnt have free reign to go camp ms’s nearly as easily....game pop has been better in euro and ustz then before 1.36 and there is action but its on the players to create that action...soon enough rpats will enter the fold and totally tip the scales to all infantry fights with the occasional piece of armor getting close to town by luck

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How true..we can debate the timers all day, but in the end it is up to all of us to create the gameplay we want.

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no it really is a matter as simple as timers

just look at how drastically the gameplay was affected with the 3:00 FMS build timer

and before that when DOC practically killed the game with the 7-minute FRU rebuild timer (I still remember shutting down entire attacks by ATRing FRUs from 700m lol)

 

a 1:00 depot cap timer means that it's better to keep players from getting inside, and the fight moves outside the building

a 5:00 depot capture timer means that all the fighting will be inside

a 1:00 depot cap timer means that getting a friend in a truck and hotdropping depots is the most effective way to stop mole attacks in large towns, a 5:00 timer it's better to have the 2nd player actually walk to a 2nd depot

a 1:00 depot cap timer means you assault in force, because if you hold off against a few defenders for a minute you have the depot, a 5:00 creates a hopeless situation so you don't assault you sneak around

a 1:00 depot cap timer you have to have someone watching the depot, a 5:00 cap timer you can just have 2-3 players cover an entire town by cycling through

 

people like to pretend that there is some other issue, but they're just making excuses for bad FPS design

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