1.36 and counter-attacks

[choad 560]

In 1.36 I totally get why the garrison force isn't supplied for 10 minutes or so .... to not allow forces to magically warp into the front line. However one part that bugs me is that during that time, your FB goes away ... your MS's go down .... so you are pretty much caught with your pants down. That is, unless everyone is doing the right thing and not instantly despawning. The situation gets ugly when the AB isn't capped last and the defenders FB's show up and they set close defensive fru's. I have no problem with that game aspect, it is great.

However, I would like to see the fb's to friendly connecting towns stay up during those 10 minutes after u take a town to better allow you to defend against an instant counter-attack. Your mobile spawns that u set for the initial attack stay up. Taking a town is now more difficult and i think attackers ought to be rewarded a bit more in being able to more effectively hold what they earned.

[Merlin51 1,387]

If everyone despawns, which yea it does happen some times or a lot, fortunately the units go into the towns garrison
so at least someone can snatch them up.
It aint much, but is at least better than empty handed.

Sometimes towards the end, i will go and roll a truck from the soon to become rear town's ab to the soon to become front town.
When the FB shuts down, it does not affect the fms set from that truck.
Sometimes no counter attack comes and the effort is wasted, but once in a while it pans out as useful.
But yea, it would be nice if there was a grace period as the in field army transitions to the garrison, would be a bit easier

[delems 727]

*** fortunately the units go into the towns garrison

No they don't.

Units off MS go back to origin town and I have no idea where units from a spawn CP (in town) go, but they didn't resupply the garrison, just tested.

 

[Nick 124]

1 hour ago, delems said:

I have no idea where units from a spawn CP (in town) go, but they didn't resupply the garrison, just tested.

 

They go back to their origin Garrison.

[Kilemall 2,354]

54 minutes ago, Nick said:

They go back to their origin Garrison.

So would setting the mission to Resupply take care of that?

[Merlin51 1,387]

4 hours ago, delems said:

Units off MS go back to origin town

Your right, i forgot that got remedied 

[choad 560]

So yeah, given that i think the fb's and ms's really do need to stay up during that 10 min timer. Map is tough enough to move .... reward the attackers a bit.

[Kilemall 2,354]

I disagree, it should EXACTLY be possible to do a setup immediate counterattack and people have to pay attention to what is happening or suffer being outplayed.  Guaranteed win?  Hogwash.

 

Counterattack play was some of the most exciting stuff.  It should be possible to be a thing if people have their act together.

 

I don't think it's going to happen that often, just 10 minutes +1-2 of free reign, even with an immediate AO slapon which is tough to do if AOs have to be pulled ahead of time, the defending town is getting first trickles right as the first tier of facilities become cappable.  Ir's more then fair and hard-earned for a counterattack to go in fast enough to take even the slightest advantage of that situation.

 

And it won't be hard to see it coming.   Trucks rolling in, EWS double, AO pulled from other town and a spare available, maybe even tanks on the way- no, screw this breather thing, 98% of the time it won't be seriously done before a good trickle is in and no advantage.  Give em a chance.

[choad 560]

1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

I disagree, it should EXACTLY be possible to do a setup immediate counterattack and people have to pay attention to what is happening or suffer being outplayed.  Guaranteed win?  Hogwash.

 

Counterattack play was some of the most exciting stuff.  It should be possible to be a thing if people have their act together.

 

I don't think it's going to happen that often, just 10 minutes +1-2 of free reign, even with an immediate AO slapon which is tough to do if AOs have to be pulled ahead of time, the defending town is getting first trickles right as the first tier of facilities become cappable.  Ir's more then fair and hard-earned for a counterattack to go in fast enough to take even the slightest advantage of that situation.

 

And it won't be hard to see it coming.   Trucks rolling in, EWS double, AO pulled from other town and a spare available, maybe even tanks on the way- no, screw this breather thing, 98% of the time it won't be seriously done before a good trickle is in and no advantage.  Give em a chance.

Huh? I am not advocating that it shouldn't be possible to immediately counter-attack. Not even sure where you got that from anything that I said. I think you are imagining things. All I am saying is that your linking fms's should stay up a bit to give you a fighting chance to defend. That's all.

[Kilemall 2,354]

Basically your setup means the counterattackers don't even have a 5-minute advantage. 

[Nick 124]

14 hours ago, Kilemall said:

So would setting the mission to Resupply take care of that?

No, the Resupply mission thing isn't needed for Garrisons (I'm not sure that it's needed at all for anything)

When I originally coded Garrison overstock I allowed it from mobile spawns and from linked depots but it was deemed way too easy, so restrictions were put in. 

[kgarner 224]

then 10 mins after ownership is just ded time that hurts the game.  Even if the other side has an ao to throw down on it right away...... 85% of the time a counter-attack isn't realistic.  Supply should immediately start trickling in 

[choad 560]

If the goal is to simulate friendly forces moving into a newly taken town ... then yes. But i do understand why there is the delay especially with respect to the allied side where they have a chance to flip nationality. I wonder if it were not for that ... if that is the way it would work.

[Kilemall 2,354]

10 hours ago, choad said:

Huh? I am not advocating that it shouldn't be possible to immediately counter-attack. Not even sure where you got that from anything that I said. I think you are imagining things. All I am saying is that your linking fms's should stay up a bit to give you a fighting chance to defend. That's all.

I am saying going to the trouble of an immediate counterattack should get you a chance at things.  That force that just took that town has the option of staying spawned or not, the signs of an immediate counterattack will be clear, so they have the option of staying in and likely having more firepower then the enemy will likely develop quickly and that first five minutes of setup will determine who has advantage, or despawn, safely in most cases but with consequences if the enemy IS counterattacking.

You leave the attack FMS up and there is virtually no point in setting up the immediate counterattack as it is in the face of a full fresh spawnlist and likely one or more backline towns already used for rescue supply, no advantage in having the organization to prepare for as fast a counterAO as is necessary to get this slim opportunity to get firmly established.

 

Leave it as is.

 

[Kilemall 2,354]

3 hours ago, Nick said:

No, the Resupply mission thing isn't needed for Garrisons (I'm not sure that it's needed at all for anything)

When I originally coded Garrison overstock I allowed it from mobile spawns and from linked depots but it was deemed way too easy, so restrictions were put in. 

I would expect it for HQ to brigades at least.

[ian77 396]

13 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

I am saying going to the trouble of an immediate counterattack should get you a chance at things.  That force that just took that town has the option of staying spawned or not, the signs of an immediate counterattack will be clear, so they have the option of staying in and likely having more firepower then the enemy will likely develop quickly and that first five minutes of setup will determine who has advantage, or despawn, safely in most cases but with consequences if the enemy IS counterattacking.

You leave the attack FMS up and there is virtually no point in setting up the immediate counterattack as it is in the face of a full fresh spawnlist and likely one or more backline towns already used for rescue supply, no advantage in having the organization to prepare for as fast a counterAO as is necessary to get this slim opportunity to get firmly established.

 

Leave it as is.

 

It is not full fresh supply from the AO MSs if left up, they used up supply in attacking.

SO side A uses two or three links grinds down the AO town, wins and "moves in".  Loses all despawned units and all FBs and all MSs.

The side that lost has its FBs (if AB fell first or attempted rear town supply) has its MSs and has the hold out troops in and around the target Town. Twenty five mins later the town is retaken and the supply trickles in for side B back to a FULL spawn list. Of course the idiots in side A who attacked and captured the town now have to wait for 15 hours for the link towns to be resupplied so that they can start the AO lottery all over again - think Ciney for the last 2 weeks. ,

God forbid that any changes to this game should ever make it easier to attack..... defense all the way!!

 

Ian 

 

[Kilemall 2,354]

3 hours ago, ian77 said:

It is not full fresh supply from the AO MSs if left up, they used up supply in attacking.

SO side A uses two or three links grinds down the AO town, wins and "moves in".  Loses all despawned units and all FBs and all MSs.

The side that lost has its FBs (if AB fell first or attempted rear town supply) has its MSs and has the hold out troops in and around the target Town. Twenty five mins later the town is retaken and the supply trickles in for side B back to a FULL spawn list. Of course the idiots in side A who attacked and captured the town now have to wait for 15 hours for the link towns to be resupplied so that they can start the AO lottery all over again - think Ciney for the last 2 weeks. ,

God forbid that any changes to this game should ever make it easier to attack..... defense all the way!!

 

Ian 

 

I AM for making attack easier- the incoming counterattack.

[choad 560]

4 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I AM for making attack easier- the incoming counterattack.

Oh ok, i am for not making an attack necessarily easier or harder ..... just for marginalizing a weird scenario that gives a significant advantage to the side that just lost the town. Essentially allowing a period of time where only one side can spawn. No need to punish the side that just lost the battle for the town, no need to reward them either .... which is essentially what you advocating for. Counter-attack all you want ... but at least affoard the side that just took the town a minimal force to defend.

[Merlin51 1,387]

Ian does have a point, i get what he is looking at.
The army in the field, unless it was depleted, would kind of still be in the field.
On capture, you could assume it would quickly mobilize its remaining forces and move to the captured location to secure it
and prepare for the main body of the garrison.

When the attackers FB goes offline, it is kind of like having everyone drive back to the base, to move forward into the captured territory.

Things are blurred a bit because the FB and the AB share the exact same unit pool, rather than the FB doing a throttled pull from the AB
but that is kind of an abstraction for gameplay.

Now the FMS's shutting down on completion of objective, eh i am ok with that.
I consider them a mission/objective oriented thing.

And the FB remaining at full capacity, well, you have to be fluid and be able to move from abstract thought to not as much abstract.
and simply understand that you have to give units back to the main garrison that were previously teleporting to the FB at will.

But i could see something like having the FB reset, and remain for a 10 minute grace period.
Now by reset, i mean it adopts a subset of the spawn pool that does not refresh, leaving it with a very small limited number of units.
Kind of like a depot that maybe has a couple tanks, handful of infantry, maybe a few towed guns, couple trucks (but only if the AB had any left of course to give).
All the other units are assumed to be forming up for, or preparing to escort the garrison move.

It is not enough to face off against a dedicated counter attack, but that is not it's intention, just a little force to counter the attempt to make a quick 4 man rush in
to retake while supply is in transit, if a dedicated force comes, well sometimes war is hell.

then you have 10 minutes to post mission, form an advanced party security patrol, that's it, 10 minutes it shuts down, the end, your people drag arse and it's wasted.

If you can get people on the same page fast enough, even 5 minutes might suffice?

5 min or 10 min, i would see it being wasted a lot anyway simply because it is hard to hold peoples attention to a counter that may not come but at least
it would be an option for a small time window.


I realize that you could do this right now, if you realize you are about to win, by getting a group to spawn up at the FB, move near town, but remain out of the attack
and wait patiently for the last flag to clear, then run your force in to set up shop and wait and see if the counter comes or not.
But sometimes while you may very well have the equipment, you may not have the human bodies to spare.
And i think it would be even harder to get a group to form up yet sit out the fight, than it would be to get them to spawn quick to oppose a counter than may not even come.
And it is hard to convince those in the fight not to despawn for their rank points and stats etc, we cant threaten each other with summary execution for failure to follow orders.

If i am counter attacking, i do kind of want someone to fight with, i dont like so much when it feels like a softcap.
Sure, i would like to win and capture the place, but more importantly, i want someone on the other side of the equation to play with.

[krazydog 255]

Actually once a side loses a town, I would like to see the supply levels of that garrison stored in the game’s memory.

Because the way it is now, if you lose a town and that garrisons supply got completely drained, but the thatt side counter attacks and recaptues the town., that garrison’s supply magically fills up again - even though it should still be drained from the previous attack.

The system does not remember the supply levels of garrisons once they get kicked off the map - this is a bigger issue I think.

Edited May 20 by krazydog

[Merlin51 1,387]

Well, remember, this is still only the 1st stage of 1.36 and garrisons, it will evolve and get better, but this is the 1st big step to getting there

[ian77 396]

8 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Well, remember, this is still only the 1st stage of 1.36 and garrisons, it will evolve and get better, but this is the 1st big step to getting there

I honestly dont know if the game has got the time to "evolve" - I see less and less in game every day, and now WBS is over, the biggest fights are around FBs so far today, maybe 5 v 5, and even with those pitiful numbers there are complaints about damage modeling, and warping/lag.

The guys who dont want the map to be moved while they are not in game can be happy, it just doesnt move much anymore. 

A greentag asked me why there were not more bots to shoot at. I explained that every plane/tank/inf was a real person on both sides - he still thought we needed more bots to have something to shoot, then he quit.

 

Ian 

 

[Kilemall 2,354]

On 5/19/2019 at 6:38 PM, choad said:

Oh ok, i am for not making an attack necessarily easier or harder ..... just for marginalizing a weird scenario that gives a significant advantage to the side that just lost the town. Essentially allowing a period of time where only one side can spawn. No need to punish the side that just lost the battle for the town, no need to reward them either .... which is essentially what you advocating for. Counter-attack all you want ... but at least affoard the side that just took the town a minimal force to defend.

They already have one, and will have one in 5 minutes.  It's a good exciting tactic and neither side seems to have it together to do it properly on a regular basis, IMO just not worth the coding to ensure that whole 'won town cooldown woohoo'.

[Capco 1,193]

3 hours ago, Kilemall said:

They already have one, and will have one in 5 minutes.  It's a good exciting tactic and neither side seems to have it together to do it properly on a regular basis, IMO just not worth the coding to ensure that whole 'won town cooldown woohoo'.

Last time I was MOIC, the Allies captured 2 towns (Beauraing and Diest).  Both were lost to Counter AOs in minimum time.  I gave out ample warning to the Allies over .allied.  We saw it coming.  We had enough coordination and leadership to capture two towns, so we definitely had the coordination and leadership to defend them.  But we didn't have supply because of the aforementioned FB issue.  

 

I agree with the other posters.  There are issues with the way this plays out.  

 

Also @SCKING, I believe you mentioned to me in another thread that a newly captured town's garrison supply begins to trickle instantly.  Everyone in this thread is saying that there seems to be a delay (which corroborates what I felt like I was seeing).  So which is it?

Edited May 21 by Capco

[delems 727]

New towns don't get supply for 10 min.