dwalin

We've had the "Hardest Campaign Ever", how about this one for "Most Boring Campaign Ever"?

112 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, actonman said:

So to summarise Axis have 278 towns to cap to win - Allies have 324 towns to cap to win.

Good luck with that bros.

Ohhh . Just checked on map status, to see if it moved in past hour ...... and ...... it did, now Axis have 56% to 44%. Relax.

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@kilemall if you type it like this the intended person doesnt get the message

@Kilemall you have to click the name

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21 hours ago, matamor said:

This campaign rocks so far.

Few down things :

  • Tiers are too fast.
  • WAY too much armors supplies.

Good job CRS!

Tiers were push much faster than i wanted to do ....the reason was to give the Welcome back event players a good feel for the new layout of the 1/2 year Tiers. 

Next next campaign will have much longer progression 

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3 hours ago, PITTPETE said:

@kilemall if you type it like this the intended person doesnt get the message

@Kilemall you have to click the name

I'm getting no option here clicking on it.

 

But Ohm's here anyway.

 

Ohm, got an overview of map battle times and 'needs' re: how game goes with cap rates, earlier in the thread.

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I’ll chime in here, suffice it to say I only skimmed over most of this thread.

1) Tier progression will absolutely need to be adjusted and slowed - which is tricky, because you always weigh the risk of making it too slow. Increasing the total number of tiers and creating micro tiers is definitely a plausible solution.

2) Proximity AOs will help, for sure, but what may really be useful is the addition of an additional AO type during good and healthy population times that allows for rear-line capture and then maybe a tiny bit of supply added to the town in the event it is captured. All kinds of things you could do here. The only way this works is with a well coordinated effort by the attackers. So how far is rear line? I’d say one town back.

anyway. Just my two cents. I’ve been gone awhile (Hi Guys!) and I’m not up to snuff on all the new happenings and changes just yet. 

 

Unrelated - How come the forums have have a valid SSL cert but I seem to be getting pointed to the non-ssl url. 

Edited by waver25
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13 hours ago, waver25 said:

2) Proximity AOs will help, for sure, but what may really be useful is the addition of an additional AO type during good and healthy population times that allows for rear-line capture and then maybe a tiny bit of supply added to the town in the event it is captured. All kinds of things you could do here. The only way this works is with a well coordinated effort by the attackers. So how far is rear line? I’d say one town back.

 

Yes. This reminds me of way back.....and people creating groups to attack towns. Can't remember if you could capture something behind the lines. Special operations stuff...IIRC... Dropping 15-20 guys on a town...trying to cap it all, or rolling a truck full of them for a cut off. 

I know this would likely be a challenge now given numbers...but it might start bringing more people in. Agency and Autonomy of players I think is a key aspect of what made things exciting, i.e. planning for a squad time, working together etc..

S!

 

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14 hours ago, waver25 said:

I’ll chime in here, suffice it to say I only skimmed over most of this thread.

1) Tier progression will absolutely need to be adjusted and slowed - which is tricky, because you always weigh the risk of making it too slow. Increasing the total number of tiers and creating micro tiers is definitely a plausible solution.

2) Proximity AOs will help, for sure, but what may really be useful is the addition of an additional AO type during good and healthy population times that allows for rear-line capture and then maybe a tiny bit of supply added to the town in the event it is captured. All kinds of things you could do here. The only way this works is with a well coordinated effort by the attackers. So how far is rear line? I’d say one town back.

anyway. Just my two cents. I’ve been gone awhile (Hi Guys!) and I’m not up to snuff on all the new happenings and changes just yet.

Have you read my NAO proposal?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Elfin said:

Yes. This reminds me of way back.....and people creating groups to attack towns. Can't remember if you could capture something behind the lines. Special operations stuff...IIRC... Dropping 15-20 guys on a town...trying to cap it all, or rolling a truck full of them for a cut off. 

I know this would likely be a challenge now given numbers...but it might start bringing more people in. Agency and Autonomy of players I think is a key aspect of what made things exciting, i.e. planning for a squad time, working together etc..

S!

Yes there were backline caps, most notoriously the 'rocket Opel' grabs, where a small team would drive around in their trucks and with no EWS and very few facilities they would just go in, touch tables, it would be done in 3 minutes,  That prompted the no-linky-no-cappy coding, which then meant that Opel teams would drive ahead of time to three towns in a row, cap the first one, second team would go in and cap the second, and maybe by then defenders would show up and kill the third team, maybe not.

 

For all the screechy people who cry about the 'notify enemy of intention to attack' and limiting aspects of AOs, there are reasons WHY for AOs, timed difference between depots and base facility caps, EWS, and no-linky-no-cappy.

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On 5/21/2019 at 11:44 PM, Mosizlak said:

They already tried that, taking away the majority of the semi and autos. 

No one wanted to play with rifles all day except a few nuts lol. 

Take away access to the good stuff and people will quit. No one wants unlimited supply, but we do want to be able to spawn what we want some of the times. 

They already quit Mos, it might be too late to get them back.... "Hardest Campaign Ever" was greatest self inflicted wound ever IMHO, but made the rifle only "nuts" very happy.

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On 5/22/2019 at 1:43 AM, augetout said:

I think folks will find that the campaign map will move faster once the respective HCs have a better handle on what needs to be done in this new environment.

Wasn't the point of 1.36 to free the game from dependence upon HC? There are still many hours when HC are just not in game - probably even more than pre-1.36 since some (many?) HC saw 1.36 as a blow to the HC chess game, and took it as a kick in the teeth.

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On 5/22/2019 at 11:40 PM, Kilemall said:

I can define it for you.

The appropriate rate is not a hard number, it's psychological.

 

The 'right' number for capture rate is 1 town every 1-3 hours, able to be done no matter the pop, 24/7.  At least half the town captures must be full on contested.  This is to satisfy the 'team success' need for side/squad bonding and sense of ability to alter the outcome of the game.  Epic defenses can do the same, and on average there will likely be more defense success then offense even with tweaks for easier offense, but a good cap is inestimable for morale, 'want to come back tomorrow/play later tonight', and player investment in game and outcome.  This is the bedrock of why I am so on about pop neutrality, as the fix for TZ3 is that it is worth the few leaders' time to get on and be able to do something, not just be a punching bag for severely overpopped enemy forces.

Also, free uncontested wins, while necessary to do on the principle of 'gotta kill the baby seals before they become SEALs', is not satisfying other then seeing tears on the forum and knowing you are breaking a side.  Of course, this is a big element of the Cycle Of Suck, and eventually hurts subs as inevitably one side or another is on the losing end of 'no point playing', either for map win or always ubercamped/can't play.

 

Net capture rate, which is different from towns changing hands, has to be at a rate that decides campaigns for one side or the other.  That means either a broad attack with something like 4:1 capture rate advantage, or a 2:1 narrow front that threatens/takes factories for wins.  We also need net capture rate advantage from day to day, just to get out of the WWIONLINE rut and not fight over the same towns.  Boredom is ALWAYS the ultimate enemy of this game.

 

Before, we had population swings that would decide things, huge local supply advantages with overstock, morale hits through key captures or bombing/tech disadvantage or gritting teeth and just pounding on each other until one gives, or upset at the game/Rat decisions or internal strife.  The other side would get advantage and press it.

 

Then we had an additional one with ToEs, HCs outnumbering or being on when the enemy HC wasn't, superior play particularly squads in conjunction with HCs gaining a logistical upper hand and inflicting one of the above or in addition cuts that captured large swaths of towns.

 

Now with the combination of AB cap doesn't bounce all supply, counterattack nets new list hours ahead of the enemy, and PN elements, these captures are coming but a bit slower then the flips before, more importantly the net capture rate is not consistently for one side or another and not fast enough to get us into new towns to fight in very quickly.

 

Going back to a principle of overpop has advantage/too bad so sad is a short path to sub kills, but some of the crazy results we see with CT/SD is counterproductive for subs either for both overpop and underpop, hence my focus on this element.  But that's just one part of the larger puzzle as noted above.

 

What's needed is faster rapid 'departures from controlled flight', net capture rates that go faster then a couple towns per 4 hour leadership period.  ToEs should have created that, but too many brigades and too much in each of their lists perversely created a lot of WWIONLINE and allowed for a lot of destroyed toys but bad wasteful goober play and frustration with the aforementioned 1-3 hour capture rate often not possible with the JWBS.  In addition of course, the powerless cutoffs when no HC on to handle, and sometimes poorly trained or just incompetent ones on.

 

Ok, so we are now in 1.36 with the idea of preventing most of the above, possibly proximity AOs (with their own problems, not looking to hash that out here), largely working but grinding to a WWIONLINE halt.

 

Like I said, need a more unstable offense oriented game that IS a game, so no overpop giveaways but neither underpop frustrates overpop to quit, and the ability to reel off a net capture rate of something like 10 towns for a side in a 24 hour period and at least get into some new game situaitons and avoid the boredom of playing in the same towns over a week.

 

1/3 supply, 1 hour resupply, strat bombing double the effect.

 

That's my answer to your challenge at least David.

 

@OHM summary of my views about the present situation.

Some good ideas/points as always - not sure I agree with your suggested numbers though, maybe 20% inf reduction and 50% AV reduction in garrisons, 6 hour resupply? That lets key target towns be attacked 3 or 4 times in 24 hours, rather than just once or a depleted twice that we have with 15 hour resupply. Wouldn't strat bombing be virtually pointless if 100% damage only meant a single hour longer for resupply? And we would see an AO lasting more than an hour have the initial casualties returning - so either win your AO fast or see it go on for ever.

 

S! Ian 

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48 minutes ago, ian77 said:

Some good ideas/points as always - not sure I agree with your suggested numbers though, maybe 20% inf reduction and 50% AV reduction in garrisons, 6 hour resupply? That lets key target towns be attacked 3 or 4 times in 24 hours, rather than just once or a depleted twice that we have with 15 hour resupply. Wouldn't strat bombing be virtually pointless if 100% damage only meant a single hour longer for resupply? And we would see an AO lasting more than an hour have the initial casualties returning - so either win your AO fast or see it go on for ever.

 

S! Ian 

The numbers I picked were for a squad-sized operation to carry out an attack or defense successfully, incentivize manual resupply/overstock, fast resolution, careful use of supply and thorough punishment for spawning into camps.

The problem with 4-6 hour timers is you have the 'one try at X' town per typical 'play shift'', which is more oriented towards 'daily orders' speed of decision- I want a more unstable game that can 'depart controlled advance' and people can go on unholy 3-6 hour tears, but then the other side can too.  The 1 hour timer also means that an AO that stays on because of no HC will get refreshed for another try.

The strat bombing is why I specced double effects.  So right now say we were on 1 hour timers and factories are at 50%.  That would be 1 hour 30m for tickets now, giving 30m advantage for the RDP successful side.  My proposal would make 50% factory damage be double time, so 2 hour resupply tickets.  Given the smaller spawnlists, depleted towns go down fast.  Probably would need double factory repair rates too.

Big reason for the 1 hour thing is RDP- lets a TZ that practices RDP reap the benefits during their 2-5 hour window, rather then drop attack and then maybe 12-15 hours later the resupply refresh kicks in and maybe you get an advantage.  There would be no maybe with this set of numbers.

Edited by Kilemall

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I've always been a proponent of smaller lists and shorter RDP timers versus a monster list with unbelievably long RPD timers.  

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and 30 sherms/stu's each +others is insane

even the 2 other tank games have less, with more people spawned

 

hopefully they'll sober up from ultra realism and see gameplay as a aspect of the game.

(...it is really difficult not to come across as a negative nancy when a game dev openly dismisses gameplay)

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53 minutes ago, major0noob said:

and 30 sherms/stu's each +others is insane

even the 2 other tank games have less, with more people spawned

 

hopefully they'll sober up from ultra realism and see gameplay as a aspect of the game.

(...it is really difficult not to come across as a negative nancy when a game dev openly dismisses gameplay)

I get what you're saying.

 

But we should never ever confuse ourselves for acting anything like the real things.

 

If the game were structured to be recreationist, we should only be able spawn in small formations with historical percentages, something like the depots, players would be assigned to what they spawned by the guy over the mission leader, and if ML orders weren't followed the player could be banned for a day.

 

Oh, we aren't doing all that?  Doing a solve tactical problems by spawnlist toolkit which doesn't have half the tools of the trade and always going into the teeth of an urban defense?  Hmmmmmm.

 

Game.

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*** they'll sober up from ultra realism

There is no way the supply units with motors are anything close to realistic.

I'd guess 1000% more tanks than historically available - same for planes.

Sure, we may need more than history, but current numbers are simply crazy.  (It is a game after all)

Entire flags are devoid of infantry, yet still have 70 to 80% of their armor left - that is insane.

 

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killing a SMG does more for the war effort than killing a tank

with the ridiculous emphasis on CQB and terrible level design once a town runs out of auto weapons it's game over

meanwhile mindless tank spam can still be bypassed with some skill and coordination (as much as CRS tries to prevent that)

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8 hours ago, david06 said:

killing a SMG does more for the war effort than killing a tank

Lol!   This is kind of true these days.

Also, nerfing the LMG didn’t help much either with this lack of MG supply issue.

Now we are forced to play with rifles as infantry 50 percent of the time.  

Maybe its historical, but not everyone enjoys only finding rifles in supply when they are trying to assult ABs  :)

Edited by krazydog
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*** So right now say we were on 1 hour timers

Need to think this through, axis going to sail 3 hours to destroy one facility, to cause a 6 min 40 sec reduction in RDP for 1 nation?

And that 6 min 40 sec is only 3 min 20 sec averaged over the hour.

Really need to ponder that..........

 

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2 minutes ago, delems said:

*** So right now say we were on 1 hour timers

Need to think this through, axis going to sail 3 hours to destroy one facility, to cause a 6 min 40 sec reduction in RDP for 1 nation?

And that 6 min 40 sec is only 3 min 20 sec averaged over the hour.

Really need to ponder that..........

 

Sail RDP mission? What factory are you able to hit with DD's? Pretty nice.

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Waste of time tbh....fix ai or keep fixing it i cant see it being worth it unless noone watching and ai stays down

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