delems

Infantry spawn building (SP).

115 posts in this topic

I don't think spawning should be based on the 800m tile grid. The number of potential spawn points in a given locale would be small because tiles are so large, so spawn camping would just occur per the grid. 

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

That's a far cry from say having 'tile capture' or defining unique capture areas the same way current facilities are defined, but entire blocks/ridges.  That's object coding, and X capture areas x Y town/junction/river crossing translates into something like I think 5000 objects.  Not counting FB-like objects.

 

T'ain't casual.

Was just addressing jwilly's concern of dynamic spawning to reduce spawn camping, and how to do that with the tech that is there or will soon be. If I'm an ML who got his sherman out of town to the rear, and there are no nme close, why can't the armor in my garrison spawn off me? That kind of thing.

Edited by blggles

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9 hours ago, tater said:

This is an example where this realism (abstracting the fact that real troop concentrations would be put into the field along a front, precisely to mitigate being flanked) results in better gameplay for players. Why? Because we play to fight, I assume, not to take points on a map with no combat (else make a meta game at the large unit level, and just tell us all how it turned out). By forcing the very limited player base to always direct themselves in 360 degree defenses, AND a large % of them guarding facilities in town (because infantry are in the towns often before the defense is even formed), we end up wasting players on boring and frustrating play.

A lot of this could be mitigated with smart play, groups of players working together in concert, like an actual infantry squad, establish a position, defend the flanks, then move forward and secure a new position with cover cover fire.

I get in game and I think I have someone on my flank, or doing overwatch and suddenly they are gone?  Also people just sit back and wait for an EI to walk in front of them, so they don't expose themselves EVER, which allows the enemy to move in and overwhelm their isolated position.

I dream of the day I find a group of players who will actually work with me to do basic things, but I find myself having to attack an EFMS alone because people want to sit back and snipe from their Depot windows, and won't move out with any aggressive spirit.  No communications, no marks, no warnings, no support.  This coupled with my game play experience of 90% of what kills me is only rendering on deathcam, there is quite a bit of frustration.

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On 5/22/2019 at 4:41 PM, blggles said:

Add to that the simple idea of the open flag/trench flag/Zeebee's defensive position flag, and now with a proper defensive position looking out on the battlefield being the point of capture/attack, or an open area that must be broadly controlled, and the necessity to mass troops to initiate capture, you have something that much more approximates a war.

Ownership through occupation, something I have proposed.

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DT, next time I see you on I'll stick with you. We'll have half a fire team, lol.

At some point during my old ww2ol days I messed around with one of the Ghost Recon games, and decided that a better ww2ol would have each player controlling 4 guys in a similar fashion to that game. If people were overly concerned about being shot by a computer I have a solution, but first I'd have a death poll to click on after you lost all 4 (you'd serially get to play all, back and forth, so you'd only be respawning every 4 deaths). The poll would ask you to click "player" or "computer" for each of the 4 deaths. After a certain number of respawns, you'd get a report to see if you could tell the difference better than chance (and if so what killed you more). Note that if 3/4 are computer controlled any instant, you'd need the AI to be killing you at higher than 75% to be able to complain. Anyway, the game would instantly turn into a squad level tactics game, as literally 2-3 people actually cooperating would be a squad of  troops. My AI solution would be limited range and field of fire for the AI guys, and the player points them. Player shoots LMG from hole in building, keeps a rifle near him (in this world he has a loader), and maybe another watches the door, and another the side window. Now it's not a lone LMG to be shot in the back, it's an LMG position that must be assaulted. I can dream, anyway...

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Enlisted is something to watch then tater, depending on how it all turns out that is. I'm open to the idea of AI squads myself.

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I thought of it at the time in a ww2ol context. A sort of force/player multiplier. Since it’s always herding cats, the idea of only having to get small numbers to cooperate  made a lot of sense.

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4 hours ago, tater said:

DT, next time I see you on I'll stick with you. We'll have half a fire team, lol.

At some point during my old ww2ol days I messed around with one of the Ghost Recon games, and decided that a better ww2ol would have each player controlling 4 guys in a similar fashion to that game. If people were overly concerned about being shot by a computer I have a solution, but first I'd have a death poll to click on after you lost all 4 (you'd serially get to play all, back and forth, so you'd only be respawning every 4 deaths). The poll would ask you to click "player" or "computer" for each of the 4 deaths. After a certain number of respawns, you'd get a report to see if you could tell the difference better than chance (and if so what killed you more). Note that if 3/4 are computer controlled any instant, you'd need the AI to be killing you at higher than 75% to be able to complain. Anyway, the game would instantly turn into a squad level tactics game, as literally 2-3 people actually cooperating would be a squad of  troops. My AI solution would be limited range and field of fire for the AI guys, and the player points them. Player shoots LMG from hole in building, keeps a rifle near him (in this world he has a loader), and maybe another watches the door, and another the side window. Now it's not a lone LMG to be shot in the back, it's an LMG position that must be assaulted. I can dream, anyway...

I went into a more in-depth proposal along these lines a few years ago, got chewed up for the trouble.

 

Operating a fire team or ultimately a platoon that is 3/4 AI would help with the density issue, teach overall unit tactics inherently, reduce action delay as you are right there, and allow for some serious blazing battles even if it's just two players.

 

But another benefit would be allowing other players to 'agent smith' into one of the other AI units.  Ta-da! Instant action and unit joining with your friends/squaddies.

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On 5/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, Sparre said:

Please excuse my poor understanding of English construction terminology. I have to ask, the infantry spawn building has 2 floors, ground floor and a 2nd floor. Still it's considered to be a 3 story building? How come?

Sorry for my poor reading skills. I understand the discussion is about the depot buildings. I don't know why I was reading in to it as the Barracks in the ABs. Mea culpa!

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11 hours ago, downtown said:

A lot of this could be mitigated with smart play, groups of players working together in concert, like an actual infantry squad, establish a position, defend the flanks, then move forward and secure a new position with cover cover fire.

I get in game and I think I have someone on my flank, or doing overwatch and suddenly they are gone?  Also people just sit back and wait for an EI to walk in front of them, so they don't expose themselves EVER, which allows the enemy to move in and overwhelm their isolated position.

I dream of the day I find a group of players who will actually work with me to do basic things, but I find myself having to attack an EFMS alone because people want to sit back and snipe from their Depot windows, and won't move out with any aggressive spirit.  No communications, no marks, no warnings, no support.  This coupled with my game play experience of 90% of what kills me is only rendering on deathcam, there is quite a bit of frustration.

Last night I marked an EFMS and killed the opel within seconds of it being placed, I got killed by a spawn in almost immediately afterwards, but I had set a DFMS early and moved back to the EFMS.  There was a tank between this EFMS and my DFMS, I was able to flank the DFMS and kill five more EI as I worked around to the EFMS, I got behind the EFMS and the EI had to move to attack me as I was able to start killing them on spawn in (Camping) but I was overwhelmed by enemy forces.  I did this alone, because there were 10 other infantry around me, plus the tank, and NOT ONE OF THEM MOVED UP IN SUPPORT.  The third time I flanked that EFMS, Snappled moved a tank around to the rear of the EFMS, other infantry finally then moved up and before an engineer or rifles with satchels arrived they took the EFMS down.   If one other person had moved up with me the first time that EFMS would have been contained the whole time, but as it was it survived over a half hour and many EI got out of it, I died three times when maybe I should have died to the first spawner.

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2 hours ago, Sparre said:

Sorry for my poor reading skills. I understand the discussion is about the depot buildings. I don't know why I was reading in to it as the Barracks in the ABs. Mea culpa!

I don't think a lot of people have a clear idea of what buildings people are talking about in game or their functions, I believe a lot of people believe defending the three story spawn building is tantamount and ignore the two story Capture Point/Flag Buildings.  Rarely do I see people defending the Capture Point/Flag Buildings but the Spawn Buildings are packed full!

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9 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I went into a more in-depth proposal along these lines a few years ago, got chewed up for the trouble.

 

I did, too, somewhere between 10-20 years ago. The hate I got was astounding.

 

2 hours ago, downtown said:

I don't think a lot of people have a clear idea of what buildings people are talking about in game or their functions, I believe a lot of people believe defending the three story spawn building is tantamount and ignore the two story Capture Point/Flag Buildings.  Rarely do I see people defending the Capture Point/Flag Buildings but the Spawn Buildings are packed full!

Again, poor game design. The reality is that with a 100% player game (not to harp on my wish for more "AI," but what the heck), any cooperation is going to be organic to specific groups of people, and increasing that cooperation is partially a function of good game design. It's always gonna be cat herding, I think. If defending an area was the thing, then where people shoot from doesn't matter.

I posted the idea of a player spawning a fire team of 3-4 inf. What if a ML spawned that. When a new player spawns in, they simply take over one of those "follow the leader" AI inf. You could set a formation (abreast with Xm between guys, trailng, whatever), and the AI guys literally follow you. Any that get killed attrit the spawn list, and the ML take over the next guy in line if he gets killed. If I accept your mission, I take over one of the guys. Note that in this case the AI inf might not even have any ability to do anything except walk, crouch, go prone (they mirror the player on point). They need not shoot. This is ML as mobile spawn point. At some distance from an enemy facility perhaps they stop following, and they become a sort of easily killed MS (assuming making them ever shoot is not something possible without it being OP).

Edited by tater

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So I just popped on for a few before doing family stuff today, cleared an ei capping the bunker, and stayed and guarded for a while.

So exciting. Everyone else moving out to kill some efms (the nomenclature around MSs has always seemed odd to me since they were introduced, but that's another post). Much more fun that staring at a doorway.

So AI.

Seems like the OiC/HC could be given the opportunity to place AI defense troops. He'd spawn in as AI SMG (no need for other types at first). He places himself in the bunker, for example, behind the box near the radio. He crouches. He deploys AI (it'd be in place of foxhole, grenade, etc), which places an AI SMG in exactly the position he placed himself in. The AI SMG fires in a 120-180 arc centered on the aim point left by the player who placed him. These dumb AI can only shoot some short range, and they are killed exactly as player units. If there are a certain number per spawn list, the OiC can then at least quickly set up a basic defense in town, requiring ei to at least take a single shot, or throw a grenade to cap a cp (or even stab, if the AI is set up in a way that allows this).

In defenses that are undermanned, someone can then at least add a token guard if for nothing other than to alert spawning inf that something untoward just happened in the bunker before they ran out of the AB without checking it. These can also then be placed in certain other locations to create defensive strongpoints. Say there's an ideal location for a player LMG, but current town porosity means that someone will certainly kill the LMG from behind. Add AI SMG to cover the LMG's rear (say a doorway into a room). If the number is highly limited, it at least mitigates the number of players that have to spend their play time staring at walls. 

In a beta or event server, it might be tested such that some other inf (or even ATG) might be able to spawn one and see what happens then. Again, they don't move past rotating within their narrow, allowed field of fire, and the range they engage might be capped at 20-30m or something.

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*** Rarely do I see people defending the Capture Point/Flag Buildings but the Spawn Buildings are packed full!

This is exactly why the SP should not be 3 stories tall, way to easy to just sit inside and snipe.

Make it ground level only, no fire zone for enemy if they go inside (or make it so they can't go inside).

Then players won't sit and snipe from 3rd level observation posts, but rather have to get out on the ground and recon/battle.

I think this single change alone could really help inspire attackers to move on CPs more (won't get sniped so easily) and encourage defenders to get out of SP building and either guard CP or patrol the perimeter.

 

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30 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Rarely do I see people defending the Capture Point/Flag Buildings but the Spawn Buildings are packed full!

This is exactly why the SP should not be 3 stories tall, way to easy to just sit inside and snipe.

Make it ground level only, no fire zone for enemy if they go inside (or make it so they can't go inside).

Then players won't sit and snipe from 3rd level observation posts, but rather have to get out on the ground and recon/battle.

I think this single change alone could really help inspire attackers to move on CPs more (won't get sniped so easily) and encourage defenders to get out of SP building and either guard CP or patrol the perimeter.

 

It would also eliminate the kamikaze death leaps from the depot roof into the blown CP with zero regard for loss of life, or the jump onto the roof and shooting the cappers through the upstairs windows.

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6 hours ago, delems said:

Then players won't sit and snipe from 3rd level observation posts, but rather have to get out on the ground and recon/battle.

I think this single change alone could really help inspire attackers to move on CPs more (won't get sniped so easily) and encourage defenders to get out of SP building and either guard CP or patrol the perimeter.

 

6 hours ago, ian77 said:

It would also eliminate the kamikaze death leaps from the depot roof into the blown CP with zero regard for loss of life, or the jump onto the roof and shooting the cappers through the upstairs windows.

I agree with both of these, and yet it's still the same, awful CP paradigm.

I end up guarding and capping much of the time (I'm only recently back, but I see you on a lot @delems, I'm easy to find, my icon is usually in/near a CP). I hate guarding, and I hate the act of actually capping to the extent it is guarding, or hiding.

Assaulting a CP? I'm OK with it, except it's always the same. Throw some nades, throw some smoke if needed, and it might take a couple times (I often have a rifle).  Defense is awful. I was defending a ruined CP, sorta standing where the closet used to be I think. I could see the german's gun sticking in at 90 degrees to the wall (as it should be), then I died. To be clear, I was not in a place where that gun can not point in game. In RL, he'd have to have stuck it through the window, turned it 90 degrees (parallel to the wall), then shot. This has happened to me many times. I  can't shoot around corners, maybe you can go back and forth, and the game lags the gun through the wall, dunno, never bothered to figure out how to do that.

All the CQB is terrible, I was in a side-stepping gunfight with a German, and I'm sure he'd complain about my movement, we both shot a few times, eventually I came out ahead (badly wounded, though).

Given the absolute game requirement for capping and guarding/holding, at the very least if the Spawn Building was improved, the CPs should improve as well. How, I have no idea, honestly. I want to defend them at least sometimes in a more active way. Having to hide in a corner staring at the stairs. I bet a decent % of the times I get killed guarding I'm looking at the map, or typing. It so BORING, yet if you care even slightly about making an attack or defense successful you must do it, and so many must do it, too. At least 1, and better 2 per CP (1 can hold off serial attackers OK, even with a rifle, but a group kills you for sure). In a game without many thousands playing, that's really too much to ask of people. HC people rightly telling people to guard CPs (because you have to) gets pretty old, when it's honestly the worst play, and anyone stuck doing it basically just volunteered to clean the latrines.

So while this is a good thread, and I can agree with much of it, any ideas for how to change the 2 buildings in concert? Any ideas for making the spawn someplace you don't want to stay, but the CP a more desirable place to stay, should someone do so?

What about the CP as a better 2 story building? Heck, a 3 story one? Footprint has to be the same, what could improve it so that it could be defended in a more active way such that guarding is not universally staring at the stairwell or closet wall?

Then at least the depot snipers will spawn, then run to the awesome sniporz nest that is the CP, where they are at least bodies that have to be killed (I agree with that other thread that the timer should only move either when 1 side clears the CP, or when 1 side outnumbers the other at the very least).

Edited by tater

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Just disable all weapons in the spawn buildings; that will force the beaver out of being a depot sniper.

 

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10 minutes ago, blakeh said:

Just disable all weapons in the spawn buildings; that will force the beaver out of being a depot sniper.

 

Please do not insult our friends the noble beavers and/or Canadians by comparing them to depot snipers.

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Is there a floorplan of the CP and Depot buildings available? Or the rectanlge that is available for them to fit into?

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I think players don't like guarding cause 1 infantry can cap a spawn.

What if it was changed so that only a town with high infantry EWS could capture?

Or, maybe if you couldn't capture unit there was 3 inside?

Then, a couple players out to mole couldn't do it - would have to be a team effort, and make your guarding more worthwhile.

 

Edited by delems
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43 minutes ago, delems said:

I think players don't like guarding cause 1 infantry cause cap a spawn.

What if it was changed so that only a town with high infantry EWS could capture?

Or, maybe if you couldn't capture unit there was 3 inside?

Then, a couple players out to mole couldn't do it - would have to be a team effort, and make your guarding more worthwhile.

 

Good ideas, but even 1 v 3 is not ideal, sure you have more targets, but it means that it's respawn, suicide rush, rinse, repeat hopefully bumoing off all of them before the cap happens. It's still not fun play. Not that long ago, you and I were in whatever town, and I capped the CP that was 90 degrees to town, and the CP I spawned at was also separated, so I crossed a field to get from one to the other. There was no ei there, but not knowing, I ran and went prone, sought cover, got to a ree berm, and ran along that, then I naded the place, and recapped. That was a million times more fun than waiting for the recap to happen, staring at the stairwell---and there was no enemy, lol.

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While spending the entire night guarding/recapping, it occurred to me.

The CP should be a park. It's not too open, it's not open enough. If you cannot control a park (no PPOs allowed), you don't control the ground. It becomes ALL about cutting/commanding the CP.  The park can have a wall/fence around it. heck, it could be a graveyard, with a single walk-in tomb (some shelter from HE).

pere-lachaise-2.jpg?w=600&ssl=1

pere-lachaise-6.jpg?w=800&ssl=1

 

Open space, some small shelter available. Basically if anyone can nade you, you're hosed. CPs in town centers will be really hard if the defense can manage mortars. Once capped, recapping... non-trivial.

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I was thinking about this some more, looks like the CP is something like 23x23m (assuming the flag sticking out is part of the building footprint) Might be smaller.

The Depot itself is similar in footprint.

Any Depot change has to fit the same footprint, including garage and exit geometry (including covered area for trucks/ATG).

Here's a CP as cemetery doodle:

2umsNYT.jpg

That's an Opel Blitz for scale, and possibly there for real as terrain. A generic truck could be added, or ideally, instead of a flag, perhaps the flag is replaces with a truck model already in game (Opel=German, Laffly=French, Bedford=UK, etc). Trucks could have flags on hood. Otherwise, use a generic truck of some kind (extant truck with canvas?) with flag on hood. The radio idea for the mausoleum is just that the small building is stone, and has room for a small comm setup (old school way to indicate command post). Wires could run out to an antenna---this is an ersatz CP, right? Walls around are made for crouch deploy (like some of the walls in the urban stuff with wrought iron on top). A few larger tombs/monuments are possible, plus tombstones of various heights and designs. Design this so that there are good deploy areas, and places to shoot through narrow arcs with a fair bit of protection from small arms fire (I did a crappy job of this, sue me ;) ). This above is 20mx20m. The entire thing would be cap texture, including perhaps the parking area (if a tank could stand on a CP, could it cap?)

The idea is that holding this area is how you cap. Once capped, you need only keep the enemy out. A few places allow hiding, and the ruined state might churn it up a little and make it nearly different, not less open.

HE would become pretty important, clearly. A skilled mortar team could really help clear a CP for capture, then again, the cappers can cap, then move nearby and keep recappers away in similar fashion. Cap timers, and multipliers for each capper can then be adjusted to make it work. The depots would be reduced as suggested to get the depot snipers out (they could stay similar, even with height, but simply lose the windows).

 

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CPs are about 22m by 10m (not including front door area with flag).

My only issue is, capture area needs to have some cover too - can't be so open that mortar can decimate it at will.

But, love the idea of other capture areas, hill tops, parks, crossroads, etc.

 

Making the SP ground floor only, and moving every facility at least 100m from any other facility will do great for bringing fights to the forefront.

A good 3 to 6 person rifle team should rule, but when CPs are 20m from other CPs, SMG is only thing can can be played.

 

Edited by delems
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On 6/15/2019 at 5:40 PM, delems said:

CPs are about 22m by 10m (not including front door area with flag).

I measured it on the map, it's roughly square if you include the flag (which it must, because the flag doesn't clip other buildings). The actual interior is closer to what you say, though, for sure.

Quote

My only issue is, capture area needs to have some cover too - can't be so open that mortar can decimate it at will.

I actually don't care that much about that. I did propose a walk in tomb or 2 for that reason. In reality, a roof should not be overly protective against a mortar barrage, anyway.

The ruin state could have some tall tombs fall over in a way that makes a roof to lie under and shoot out of (aiming out a door, or even a fallen wall section...).

I just want to have a CP that involves actually fighting, not waiting to be killed in a CQB death dance, and hoping to trade.

Quote

But, love the idea of other capture areas, hill tops, parks, crossroads, etc.

Ditto.

The countryside is way too empty. I think they could use extant farm buildings with the texture made capturable in the CP version. If limited spawn lists could be a thing, then a farmhouse CP could perhaps have a spawn in the upstairs. Only like a squad worth (UK/Ger rrifle section/gruppe were 1 SMG, 1 LMG, 8 rifles). Some in the woods... could be very, very fun. Perhaps if they added new CPs between town/FB (not just linear, either! I want a front of them), they could have some that were simply open ground to be held. The farm compound bunker we have, minus the bit that keeps vehicles out?

More variety!

Quote

Making the SP ground floor only, and moving every facility at least 100m from any other facility will do great for bringing fights to the forefront.

Agreed, but we're still stuck with the guarding a closed room paradigm. I can't help but try to help our side win, and I honestly hate it so much. I played a hour or two last night, and the only outside I played was running TO a CP to recap or guard it, or the one time I went looking for an EFMS, then snuck up on a tank (sap blew it). I literally spent the entire night doing what I hate, nothing I liked. I'm willing to pay a while (again) in the hopes something might change, but I'll get sick of that at some point, if the only way to not lose is to stare at a virtual wall.

Quote

A good 3 to 6 person rifle team should rule, but when CPs are 20m from other CPs, SMG is only thing can can be played.

There are also far too many SMGs in play relative to other inf units.

Spawn lists need to be smaller, and replenished when emptied, not before. Ie: A Squad/Rifle Section/Gruppe is 1 SMG (NCO), 1 LMG, 8 rifles. That's the spawn list. When all of those are gone from a given brigade, it refills. (it's keeping track of the total number, but only those are available. There might be another, special spawn of some kind for Engineers, a Mortar squad, grenadiers, etc. (maybe 1 of the rifles gets switched with one of those every X Squads?).

Later in the war, the Germans went to more SMGs, I think it was 3 SMG, 1 MG42, 6 rifles from '43 on. UK stayed the same, but the French could be whatever we like (matching Germans, for example) for balance (a reason to use them vs UK), they're counterfactual anyway.

 

 

Edited by tater

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