• Announcements

    • PITTPETE

      NEW Career Subscriptions now available   06/08/2019

      The all new highly anticipated / requested "Career Based Subscriptions" are available through www.WWIIONLINE.com/account only, starting at $9.99! There are three new subscriptions being added; 1) All Infantry at $9.99/mo, 2) All Air Forces at $9.99/mo, 3) All Ground Forces (Army Persona) at $12.99/mo. Continue reading to learn more and get back into the fight now! View the full article on battlegroundeurope.com
    • CHIMM

      18th Anniversary Event Awards!   06/23/2019

      This year we are giving out trophies and awards for the top players during the "Kill a RAT" event! We need the following players to contact @CHIMM at chimm@corneredrats.com with your physical address to mail these out.   @mook2  @dasei88  @c00per  @kardehk  @chau90  @kdped02  @Simcha  @pulfer  @bus0    
ian77

Fast Cap Paras

20 posts in this topic

Just a thought, but probably impossible to implement in game, but Paras to be able to capper faster.

 

Paras are a "cool" unit, new guys love them, but we hardly use them because they soak up many "man hours" getting the paras spawned at the AF and then to the AO.  BUT if they could be more useful when at the AO they would be used more.

So faster capping paras would be most useful to the OP side, so they would have more of their OP players sitting at the AF or in the transport - in turn this is helping pop balance in the AO.

When they get to the AO, well we all know how vulnerable paras can be, they are just inf afterall.

Faster capping will still not beat the minimum cap timers, and while it would help the OP side it certainly shouldn't break the UP defence.

I think it will see paras used more, and if we extend para rifles to F2P it will give new guys a bit of added fun as well.

 

S! Ian 

 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would be gamey---but it's a game, after all---but I could imagine a night drop paradigm where the drop aircraft drops at least X paras, and while doing so creates a para MSP IN THE AIR. I make it night specific simply because paras will pop into existence in the air, and at least at night, it's a little less gamey to see. There would be plane engine noise the entire time the spawn is active. The MSP is time limited (X minutes, or dawn whichever comes first), and the spawns occur spread over the extent of the MSP (direction of plane, in a line a few hundred m long). The alt would be set to whatever seems best (ie: the pilot might have to deploy it in a specific alt range set by Rats). Spawned in paras have chutes deploy right after spawning.

Remember, the point of MSPs is to allow for a few players to serially play a larger unit. This doesn't allow much serial play (time limit), but does allow more paras to be used.

If drops right on town seem too goofy, they could follow MSP rules in terms of offset over the ground.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never mentioned an MSP floating in mid air.

I clearly said Paras sitting at the AF - how would it help pop balance to have paras appearing in mid air.

Please read the post before declaring that it "would be gamey".

 

S! Ian 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, even being a para fan.  The time price needs to be paid given the relative power of para units.

 

What's missing is supply canisters that come down with the jump, a little bit of sustainability without really gamey air FMS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ian77 said:

I never mentioned an MSP floating in mid air.

I clearly said Paras sitting at the AF - how would it help pop balance to have paras appearing in mid air.

Please read the post before declaring that it "would be gamey".

I didn't say your idea was gamey, I prefaced MY idea by saying it would be gamey.

I said:

2 hours ago, tater said:

This would be gamey... but I could imagine...

 THIS, then followed by (gamey) idea. There is no way to read what I wrote any other way.

Edited by tater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tater said:
1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

I disagree, even being a para fan.  The time price needs to be paid given the relative power of para units.

 

What's missing is supply canisters that come down with the jump, a little bit of sustainability without really gamey air FMS.

FMS make no sense at all outside of a "gamey" context, except for the fact that they represent what the game does not have, larger units in the field at one time.

The entire point of respawning, FMS, even depots is that a handful of players are trying to do a thing that SHOULD be done by at the very least many hundreds of player on at once, which will simply not happen.

The exact same thing is true of paras.

If the military expectation would be brigades (or whatever large unit you like) to br dropped at once, then the para brigades either get used in that fashion, or the WW2OL equivalent, via FMS, or they are in effect only commando like units where you drop a squad or platoon, and that's it.

Having paras appear in the air over the course of 5-10 minutes (at which point the invisible FMS disappears---perhaps it has an invisible target that attracts AI AAA, and can be destroyed by a single hit) is hardly any dumber than a ground FMS where ei literally magically appear in front of people who then shoot them as a standard mode of play.

Since the FMS would have to be placed by the same aircraft that flies paras, the same flight time is required, and that plane can get intercepted. The system could be further tweaked, such that each time-limited Para FMS (PFMS) only spawns a plane full of paras, then disappears. Then you could get a few people together to fly to the target area, each sets a drop, then players drop. The first wave would likely ride the plane anyway, since they'd otherwise have to wait for the PFMS to appear.

It's a way to utilize paras in a more realistic way, given the same gamey mechanics that are used all the time in game.

Edited by tater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference is that FMS represents a very vulnerable truck driving to a point and dropping the spawn, the FMS maintaining existence under attack. and the supply being readily burned away as the infantry close in or are camped.  The FMS is earned through both placement and existing.  Paras get placement in close or distant and enough firepower to kill inf and tanks, not right that the time price is not paid.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

much faster cap timers (x3 or x4 at least)

not counted towards global population if within certain distance of origin (so organizing a bunch of new guys at the AF for 15 minutes doesn't cripple the team due to retarded overpop penalty)

C47s and Ju52s get 10 minutes in the air free of AWS detection instead of the normal five

there are a whole lot of things that could be done to incentivize para usage

keep dialing them up until paras are "in regular use"

"regular use" defined as used so much that they are constantly out of autos and specialized infantry

para missions plastered on the Steam front page (real ones, not staged screen shots)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, tater said:

I didn't say your idea was gamey, I prefaced MY idea by saying it would be gamey.

I said:

 THIS, then followed by (gamey) idea. There is no way to read what I wrote any other way.

A response of "This would be gamey" states you see my idea as gamey. 

The "but" which follows two phrases later signals that here comes your wonderful alternative idea which is not gamey....

Swap "dreadful" for "gamey" and reread.  See what I mean?

Perhaps you should just have posted - "I shall ignore the OP and tell you my idea instead" - problem solved.

As for your idea - are you not the same guy that wants arena style matched/balanced fights and the defenders to be allowed to set up before the attackers?  How does a magic FMS hovering above a town accomplish your ideal of defenders ready and waiting for the attackers? With your suggestion every inaccessible roof will have an ei para on it camping every defensive Depot and AB. If a para misses the roof he wants, hey presto he spawns again and aims to guide his chute down to a rooftop the defenders just cannot reach. At least the existing FMS requires the attacking infantry work their way into town on the ground.

 

S! Ian 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ian77 said:

A response of "This would be gamey" states you see my idea as gamey. 

The "but" which follows two phrases later signals that here comes your wonderful alternative idea which is not gamey....

Swap "dreadful" for "gamey" and reread.  See what I mean?

Nope. 

You might have a point had I quoted you, then it would be a direct reply to what you wrote. I intentionally did not quote you for that reason. 

 

1 hour ago, ian77 said:

Perhaps you should just have posted - "I shall ignore the OP and tell you my idea instead" - problem solved.

No, I was throwing an alternate idea out there, which is why it was not a quoted response.

That's the signal for a direct comment on something you posted---as this response is right here. I quote what I am referring to, and I respond to it. 

1 hour ago, ian77 said:

As for your idea - are you not the same guy that wants arena style matched/balanced fights and the defenders to be allowed to set up before the attackers?  How does a magic FMS hovering above a town accomplish your ideal of defenders ready and waiting for the attackers?

A few points.

One, paratroops are in fact the ONLY unit that should function as every infantry unit currently functions most of the time in game. Paras are precisely the units that are invariably "behind the lines," that's sort of the point.

Two, all infantry is currently absurd in that it appears from nowhere from an FMS, regardless of which side supposedly holds terrain. If X hundred inf can appear via magic on the ground, why should the same sized unit that is designed to drop from the air be forced to "truck" in manually? Why not go back to walking/trucks to move inf to the front? The one is no more gamey than the other.

1 hour ago, ian77 said:

With your suggestion every inaccessible roof will have an ei para on it camping every defensive Depot and AB. If a para misses the roof he wants, hey presto he spawns again and aims to guide his chute down to a rooftop the defenders just cannot reach. At least the existing FMS requires the attacking infantry work their way into town on the ground.

Again, a few points.

One, if he misses the roof, and respawns, the unit is attritted---and I said perhaps the PFMS has a spawn list limited to the load of the aircraft in question.

Two, if there is no way on/off the roof, that unit is trapped. A fall is death, and they can eventually be shot (if they see emery, enemy can see them). So they cannot capture.

Three, I added that the PFMS could attract AI AAA fire, and I suppose the AI LMGs might shoot at the paras as well when within some arc of fire. I said in that case the PFMS would be destroyed if it got hit by AAA at all. As such, setting this up over a town would be less than ideal. In RL, para drops tended to be outside the objective slightly, in areas appropriate for drops.

 

 

The entire point of my post was to suggest a way to make paras more on par with other inf units. If the devs go to the trouble to create the units, but the gameplay mechanics make them mostly useless, it's a wasted effort. Remember my context---all inf spawning is already very gamey (it's a game, after all), but that any such gamey addition should be to serve a gameplay purpose. Mobile spawning it to facilitate small numbers of players having battles that are not punctuated by 30-60 minute walks to the capture point, or dangerous truck rides (careening offroad until you pass a lone LMG who kills all of you). The fact that the FMS paradigm doesn't include a sense of "front" is a huge problem here, as we see armies sprouting up 360 degrees around most every town. Ideally I'd change that (limit FMS placement by both a no-go zone determined by what facilities the enemy owns, and distance from the FB (unsure what it is, now). With a para FMS, those could be deployed 360 degrees, because that's a real functionality of paras.

Related to that cool daisy chain facilities thread, capping facilities that are not bordering ones you own could be a role for paras. Imagine that the cap facilities out of town are things like farmhouses, or even bridges (maybe they get a building associated with them if that is required?), then paras can drop, and cap/hold a facility until ground forces can cap a line of communication.

Here's yet another idea. We don't have gliders, but there could be a glider FMS (GFMS), if for some reason troops appearing out of thin air at altitude=0m is perfectly rational, but alt 500m is obviously insanity:

Pilot sets GFMS by killing engines of plane in air, then landing. Entire plane is now GFMS with a spawn list equal to the number of troops a glider could hold, plus perhaps 1 light ATG, and a certain amount of resupply.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The good ole days.....the 101st dropping a town.....landing in the doorway or through the roofs of a cp. Overpowering a towns defenses, being that Force Multiplier we once were......until we weren't anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, raven4 said:

The good ole days.....the 101st dropping a town.....landing in the doorway or through the roofs of a cp. Overpowering a towns defenses, being that Force Multiplier we once were......until we weren't anymore.

EWH.

 

Including ahistorical acrobatic chute control.

 

Including bigaazz squads that the para paradigm messed with too badly to live with the ahistorical chutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

EWH.

 

Including ahistorical acrobatic chute control.

 

Including bigaazz squads that the para paradigm messed with too badly to live with the ahistorical chutes.

Yeah it was crazy chute control, but we had to practice that chute control. Come up with exact timing, at exact height with very good para pilots to land exactly where we wanted. At most maybe we had 20 on at times, maybe 30 a few, even after the got rid of the full rotation we were still quite good. A lot of people just moved on with life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahh yeah, the old chute-control 'bug', one of the few bugs that most of the community would have not complained to loudly about it if never got fixed...

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 They should factor in the possibility of a bad landing for paras- say  1 in 100 chance of breaking a leg - 1 in 20 when landing in a town. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, blakeh said:

 They should factor in the possibility of a bad landing for paras- say  1 in 100 chance of breaking a leg - 1 in 20 when landing in a town. 

I'd go for that if there was a 1 in 10 chance you hurt yourself jumping from 2 or 3 story roof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't think paras have enough issues already? :)  We were trying to find more reasons for paras to be used, not trying to put people off spawning them. I agree that landing injuries for paras would be more realistic, but I don't see this as helping game play. 

 

Anyway, with the new group cap timers we sort of have "fast cap paras", or fast cap anything. Don't cap alone, always take a friend with you! :) 

 

S! Ian 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ian77 said:

You don't think paras have enough issues already? :)  We were trying to find more reasons for paras to be used, not trying to put people off spawning them. I agree that landing injuries for paras would be more realistic, but I don't see this as helping game play. 

Agreed, though I think the fall damage is already goofy, and needs universal improvement (no roof jumping, or running off 2d floor depoys).

Paras already have a cool down on landing, right?

I think the solution to paras usefulness (outside some current cases where they already work fine), is to make the regular MSPs obey some sort of "on-sides" rules, so that if you control the towns N and E, say, you are limited to spawning N and E of the target town. Then paras can drop to the rear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tater said:

...make the regular MSPs obey some sort of "on-sides" rules, so that if you control the towns N and E, say, you are limited to spawning N and E of the target town. 

Fundamental to realism, unless there's a specific reason why there wouldn't be a manned front line to either side of a target town. Should have been part of the game from the beginning. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Fundamental to realism, unless there's a specific reason why there wouldn't be a manned front line to either side of a target town. Should have been part of the game from the beginning. 

As should some way to abstract real unit dispositions, better than the awful, useless AI we have now.

We now have Brigades (which are really not even 1 Battalion, much less a few Battalions). I've always thought the units should be spawned in smaller blocks such that if the facility is lost, those units are lost (temporarily). So put a platoon in each Depot, a company in the AB, etc. If it's lost, those units are not available for hours. Each unit of a certain size then gets AI (like we have), but that AI is placed by the HC (maybe the HC can make a player-specific mission to allow specific regular players to do it if the HC trusts them for a given town (a command HC could do like ".ai dinant tater" and then I could place AI in Din for the next 30 minutes or whatever). These placements are persistent until the AI is blown, placement shows the arc of fire, too.

Placing FMS at 45 degrees to run into town and blow AI is gamey and stupid (stupid for immersion, sensible as a tactic given the game now, obviously).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.