rodsantos

Destroying towed guns

11 posts in this topic

I think it is totally unrealistic that a cannon-armed Hurricane firing exploding 20mm shells can knock out trucks and light armored vehicles but get killed by an AA gun which you landed fifty hits on but just barely missed the gunner. That AA weapon should be a twisted, totally unusable wreck even if the crew wasn't hit. 

Guns should have a damage model like all other vehicles. You should be able to kill an AAA or ATG piece like a truck or a tank.

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The problem is that while this would be ideal, there should also be an ability for the crew to seek cover. Most aircraft attacks on AAA were to suppress it, allowing other aircraft to attack more important targets, not to eliminate the AAA for all time. If AAA was in an emplacement, or if there was a slit trench next to it, the crew would dive into cover if they elected to not continue to attack the target, and after the aircraft passed, they could resume fire. Also, any passing troops could help if needed.

They're also almost universally operating in a game world where even though the troops operating it would be armed like other troops, they are nothing but victims to nearby infantry (who are running around even inside an enemy AB).

Things certainly make more sense if nearly everything is realistic, but when so little in the game is realistic, singling out one thing isn't really fair.

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Interesting discussion.

Should a killed gun crew (with an intact equipment) just make the weapon temporarily be disabled until event X happens? (No immediate despawn), e.g.:

- re-populate / re-heal with any infantryman or truck standing near?

- permanent unit removal if no action for 3 minutes or as soon as the weapon is actually destroyed (direct AP/HE shell or satchel).

Same for killed crews in tanks and other vehicles... and of course infantries thanks to medics. The ability to « re-heal » a killed unit could help improve battle density and team cohesion very much.

Need more premium subs to get these kind of ideas worked on.

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what AA gun were you shooting at?

the flak 30 will get degunned by a from a .50cal or 20mm AP round

have had it happen several times, both crew alive then *plink* from a guy spraying from far off and the gun doesn't work

all the ATG damage models are jacked up, unless something was fixed several have reversed member hit boxes and other hit boxes basically disappear when deployed

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29 minutes ago, ZEBBEEE said:

Interesting discussion.

Should a killed gun crew (with an intact equipment) just make the weapon temporarily be disabled until event X happens? (No immediate despawn)

- re-populate / re-heal with any infantryman or truck standing near?

- permanent unit removal if no action for 3 minutes or as soon as the weapon is actually destroyed (direct AP/HE shell or satchel).

Same for killed crews in tanks and other vehicles. The ability to kind of « re-heal » a killed crew could help improve battle density and team cohesion.

Need more premium subs to get these kind of ideas worked on.

Yeah, I always thought they could function as a sort of crew weapon MSP. They stay in place (recrewed, but ammo supply persists (so they still require resupply)) unless spiked or otherwise destroyed by weapons capable of taking them out. I like the idea of any inf being able to "join" a gun and take it over---including the AI emplacements. People always run in on AI because they know exactly where they won't shoot. Imagine if players could take over the AI, and it can then shoot in any direction---players can then never take AI for granted as stupid (even though 99% of the time it would be stupid).

Another idea related to ATG/AAA survivability: Years ago I suggested that ATG/AAA be allowed to be MSPs with a fixed spawn list of just a couple supporting inf. ATG could then deploy, and turn on spawning and request inf support. This would be like a couple rifles, or maybe 2 rifles and an SMG. I could see other nominally crewed wepaons (LMG/mortar). The act of turning on the spawning could send out a chat requesting support: "ATG needs inf support, type .j tater"

 

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1 hour ago, tater said:

Yeah, I always thought they could function as a sort of crew weapon MSP. They stay in place (recrewed, but ammo supply persists (so they still require resupply)) unless spiked or otherwise destroyed by weapons capable of taking them out. I like the idea of any inf being able to "join" a gun and take it over---including the AI emplacements. People always run in on AI because they know exactly where they won't shoot. Imagine if players could take over the AI, and it can then shoot in any direction---players can then never take AI for granted as stupid (even though 99% of the time it would be stupid).

Another idea related to ATG/AAA survivability: Years ago I suggested that ATG/AAA be allowed to be MSPs with a fixed spawn list of just a couple supporting inf. ATG could then deploy, and turn on spawning and request inf support. This would be like a couple rifles, or maybe 2 rifles and an SMG. I could see other nominally crewed wepaons (LMG/mortar). The act of turning on the spawning could send out a chat requesting support: "ATG needs inf support, type .j tater"

 

That is a great idea. With sappers being the most unhistorical and gamey unit in WW2OL (in their current form) ATGs need improvements to make them the primary anti-tank unit, not the other way around. I've been considering a few different ideas, but I like the idea of deployed guns acting as a mini-MSP. I also like the idea of crewmen returning to the gun if not destroyed, maybe a max of one time, to simulate the larger gun crews that we do not model. Also, what are peoples thoughts on protecting ATG crews from INF fire past a certain distance?

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8 hours ago, david06 said:

what AA gun were you shooting at?

the flak 30 will get degunned by a from a .50cal or 20mm AP round

have had it happen several times, both crew alive then *plink* from a guy spraying from far off and the gun doesn't work

all the ATG damage models are jacked up, unless something was fixed several have reversed member hit boxes and other hit boxes basically disappear when deployed

I was up against a Bofors in a Hurricane 2c, put somewhere between thirty and fifty rounds on target, but missed the gunner.

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On 6/3/2019 at 10:22 AM, ZEBBEEE said:

Interesting discussion.

Should a killed gun crew (with an intact equipment) just make the weapon temporarily be disabled until event X happens? (No immediate despawn), e.g.:

- re-populate / re-heal with any infantryman or truck standing near?

- permanent unit removal if no action for 3 minutes or as soon as the weapon is actually destroyed (direct AP/HE shell or satchel).

Same for killed crews in tanks and other vehicles... and of course infantries thanks to medics. The ability to « re-heal » a killed unit could help improve battle density and team cohesion very much.

Need more premium subs to get these kind of ideas worked on.

For the love of god just model visual dmg on the Guns , that be a great start for all of us. And if that's not possible as of now add a secondary explosion or flames or smoke or a bit of both to the equipment so the none ATG or AAA player base knows it has been destoyed. 

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8 minutes ago, dre21 said:

For the love of god just model visual dmg on the Guns , that be a great start for all of us. And if that's not possible as of now add a secondary explosion or flames or smoke or a bit of both to the equipment so the none ATG or AAA player base knows it has been destoyed. 

 If they model the crew, allow the crew to seek cover, then return. This might require that "deploy" include a PPO of some sort. From any distance, the crew hitting the dirt might, or might not mean they are dead. I'm entirely OK with this ambiguity, since in RL, the "crew" would not be just a few irreplaceable guys, each of which can only possibly ever do one job, such that if any are killed, the gun is useless for all time.

The goal should be ATG/AAA that have reasonable functionality.

The WW2OL world is vastly better than it was in the early days, but it still lacks the human scale variation in terrain (cover/concealment) that would make ALL units more survivable. It replaces this with often too much concealment, and like all other "obstacles" in WW2OL, everything is too porous.

So ATG/inf run through bushes. Vehicles can drive everywhere. It's kind of a mess, honestly. The old "hard forests" were bad in many ways, but they abstracted something closer to truth than current forests, and constrained movement. An ATG in  a nook of hard forest at least knew they could only be attacked from not the hard forest side.

IMO the game would be well served by having more survivable ATG/AAA guns, that could none the less be taken out in a realistic fashion, then we dump the satchels for anything other than what they should be used for (taking out bridges, gameplay objects (FBs/MSPs), etc).

 

 

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I wholeheartedly support these ideas, but of course without subs nothing can be done.

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