kgarner

Spawn delay 30+ secs?

124 posts in this topic

So which is it - are we tired of long cap timers or spawn delay? All of they crying about cap timers resulted in lowering it - but predictably the spawn timers ticked up. If you are anti pop balancing mechanisms all together I guess that is another thing all together.

Maybe CRS needs to poll the player base - what is more offensive to their sensibilities, spawn delay or long cap timers?

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44 minutes ago, Capco said:

Then play on the underpop side so you don’t have to wait.

 

If you want to club baby seals, you’re gonna have to wait first.

so clubbing baby seals now is having a whopping 6-8 more players than the allies, some of which might be 2nd accounts or F2P players

unless you think that with 25 spawned in and 30 sec SD during 1 AO the axis population advantage was more than that

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1 hour ago, Randazzo said:

Spawn delay will never correct side balance issues. There needs to be incentive, not punishment. 

This.

The game is designed for people to feel part of a bigger picture, hence the "Map" vs just doing a smaller area at much greater fidelity.

As such, they won't want to switch sides so they can undo what they worked on the last time they played.

Any solution is going to have to be a little outside the current box.

My personal desire is for the battles to be more novel, feel more realistic (that's not the same as being perfectly realistic, I'm talking the subjective feel), and not have anyone on either side killing mostly people who are still rendering the world in or getting their bearings.

 

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1 hour ago, Randazzo said:

Spawn delay will never correct side balance issues. There needs to be incentive, not punishment. 

That said, I do understand the need to do something -- but this is pretty dramatic. 

 

Don't forget this sword has two edges on it. 

Maybe we need to think of it this way. You died, your punishment is you have to wait 20 seconds to get back into the fight. That is your punishment for death. Not caring what side u are playing. Then ..... for the reward part, if you are playing the underpop side, we just forgive you of that penatly to some degree or another ... and you can spawn in immediately, or lesser delay.

Isn't it the EXACT same thing just stated differently. I fail to see any meaningful difference. Maybe we just need to talk about it in different terms and add a base 20 second spawn delay to everyone who takes a bullet? I kinda like that approach ... positive reinforcement for playing the underpop side.

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6 minutes ago, choad said:

Maybe we need to think of it this way. You died, your punishment is you have to wait 20 seconds to get back into the fight. That is your punishment for death. Not caring what side u are playing. Then ..... for the reward part, if you are playing the underpop side, we just forgive you of that penatly to some degree or another ... and you can spawn in immediately, or lesser delay.

Isn't it the EXACT same thing just stated differently. I fail to see any meaningful difference. Maybe we just need to talk about it in different terms and add a base 20 second spawn delay to everyone who takes a bullet? I kinda like that approach ... positive reinforcement for playing the underpop side.

In Soviet Russia, punishment is incentive!

:D

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4 hours ago, david06 said:

euro time zone has really declined, at least years ago when you would get a big operation going on with SD, not a two tiny groups of players in two towns

 

Yeah erm... this.

 

This is no fun for anyone. I had the same thing happen to me three times, but from a spawnable CP; not a fru.

(Are they still FRUs?)

 

Decidedly UNfun. Fixed spawns.... noisy trucks.... tanks rolling out to camp. Yeeeesh.

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38 minutes ago, Randazzo said:

In Soviet Russia, punishment is incentive!

:D

It's all wording.....what would you have them do as an incentive .... just curious.

And don't say faster cap timers lol.

Edited by choad

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Balanced sides would fix the overpop/underpop issue overnight. 

 

No more funky cap timers.  No more erratic spawn delay.  Perfect pop balance 24/7.  No finger pointing or excuses.  

 

There's a reason why balanced sides are a near universal feature in FPS gaming...

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1 minute ago, Capco said:

Balanced sides would fix the overpop/underpop issue overnight. 

 

No more funky cap timers.  No more erratic spawn delay.  Perfect pop balance 24/7.  No finger pointing or excuses.  

 

There's a reason why balanced sides are a near universal feature in FPS gaming...

Yeah but that will never happen in this game by design. So .........

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1 minute ago, choad said:

Yeah but that will never happen in this game by design. So .........

Then this headache will never go away.  

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2 minutes ago, Capco said:

Then this headache will never go away.  

Well it could happen .... just would be the death of squads which is exactly opposite of what they want. Also most players wouldnt accept it.

Edited by choad

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1 minute ago, choad said:

Well it could happen .... just would be the death of squads which is exactly opposite of what they want.

I see that.  But if after nearly 20 years they haven't found a solution that perfectly counter balances an inherently unbalanced game, then there probably is no solution.  It would have been done by now.  

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7 minutes ago, Capco said:

I see that.  But if after nearly 20 years they haven't found a solution that perfectly counter balances an inherently unbalanced game, then there probably is no solution.  It would have been done by now.  

Yeah so everyone just accept total balance never gonna happen. Also accept spawn delay or cap timers are necessary and stop complaining constantly about them. There are ways, within your control, to avoid them completely.

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16 minutes ago, Capco said:

I see that.  But if after nearly 20 years they haven't found a solution that perfectly counter balances an inherently unbalanced game, then there probably is no solution.  It would have been done by now.  

It's because the basic paradigm of gameplay has always been broken, and the tweaks can't ever make up for that.

That means any fix is likely painful from a coding standpoint, I realize. The idea I pitched above was also a tweak, since it tries to utilize existing mechanics.

Short of a serious change in mechanics (zone of control, etc), what could be done?

How about this:

Could overpop encourage multicrew in some way? Multicrew is already a thing, but perhaps any unit spawned with multicrew has zero spawn delay, so when the respawn timer is high, you can always spawn as crew?

Related, but it would take some modelling, but maybe ATG could get some sort of support crew (same rules here, no spawn delay for multicrewed version)? These would be inf with rifles, mostly.

Easier, perhaps: I proposed that ATG be given limited MSPs (like a fire team worth of guys, max). Is there a way to tie inf to an MSP in some fashion, sort of like the ammo oversupply? Make the ATG support inf have only 1 full magazine for their weapon, 1 of each grenade, no secondary weapons, etc. The ATG then acts as a resupply point for them, so they won't want to go far. Also, they get no sprint at all, making them sorta useless away from the ATG. These spawns have one advantage, they never have spawn delay. So you can instantly spawn to help your side by supporting an ATG. ATGs can be defensive, or offensive, so it's not a nerf of either capability.

 

Edited by tater

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4 minutes ago, choad said:

Yeah so everyone just accept total balance never gonna happen. Also accept spawn delay or cap timers are necessary and stop complaining constantly about them. There are ways, within your control, to avoid them completely.

Correct, especially the last bolded part.  

 

As I said before, if you don't like spawn delay, play for the underpop side.  It's really easy to avoid.  

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19 minutes ago, Capco said:

I see that.  But if after nearly 20 years they haven't found a solution that perfectly counter balances an inherently unbalanced game, then there probably is no solution.  It would have been done by now.  

I don't think that is so.  Look how long it took for cap timers to become a thing, and that was brought up first thing before they ever coded spawn delay.  They didn't even start looking at this whole issue until entire TZs were depopulating several years in., and due to some weird adherence to having just one control mechanism, stuck with SD while it ran off whole squads.  Current Rats are obviously willing to make big changes, it just has to percolate to the top to be a primary concern.

 

We just have to keep working it.

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I gotta say ... generally spawn delay seems a bit better than cap timers. My thinking is that .... it is *somewhat* in your control. Don't die. Be more careful/better shot .... whatever. I understand switching missions, you still get hit over the head with it which sucks. Wish it was only applicable if your last mission was KIA. Anyhow, it is somewhat in your control. Cap timers u have zero ability to avoid.

Edited by choad
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6 hours ago, Capco said:

Then play on the underpop side so you don’t have to wait.

 

If you want to club baby seals, you’re gonna have to wait first.

Lame.  Always has been always will be.  I was going to play Allied this campaign and actually spawned in for a sortie this morning.  Had two caps in Baarle Hertog.  But after seeing you post this crap.  Not gonna happen.  When you are representative of the Allied side, I will never help you guys, ever.  I also actively encourage any Axis players who are currently playing Allied, to check out this thread and decide if you need to head straight back to the Axis side.

VR

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3 hours ago, Capco said:

As I said before, if you don't like spawn delay, play for the underpop side.  It's really easy to avoid.  

Even easier is to not bother logging in at all.  

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Whose bright idea was it to raise SD?

We finally made capture times in the realm of sanity...... and now we can't get to the CP in any decent time........ :(

Please call out the players that were asking for higher SD.

 

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5 hours ago, choad said:

It's all wording.....what would you have them do as an incentive .... just curious.

And don't say faster cap timers lol.

An excellent question that I'm not smart enough to answer. It's especially hard in this game where there is little the player can be given. I've seen other games the where the underpop side gets more "points" or whatever the appropriate term for said game is to be used towards level ups or weapon unlocks or upgrades. I've seen bonus "credits" that go to the same end.

In this game, I really have no idea, and I suspect that's why it is the way it is. I do understand what you're suggesting, and if there was a base spawn delay for EVERYBODY and had been from day 1, that'd probably be ok. Do it now and it would be flirting with disaster.

Having played Allied tonight with 30 second spawn delay I can say it does suck, but not enough to stop me from playing- though I did consider logging out several times and actually did once (damn you @shagher) but I came right back and kept playing. So it was just an irritant that didn't really do much. I'm not saying that makes it ok - just that it doesn't do much of anything.

Edited by Randazzo

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As you know, the spawn Delay maximum has indeed gone up to 30 seconds. When you achieve 30 seconds, it is under worst possible conditions. The unwillingness for side balance to occur through other measures has resulted into this. It's a necessity. Majority of folks who seem opposed to it are predominately Axis players. Today, on our 18th anniversary we saw the Allies for about 4 hours have a 33% overpopulation. Guess what? They got nailed with spawn delay and felt the same thing.

Now at hour 5, we're seeing 1:1 population, and no one has a spawn delay. This is when the game is at its best, when there's a balance. We need to incentivize this happening and we must stop massive rolls of the campaign. When side balance is prioritized more by the general player base we'll pull off this a bit and get those timers settled down. Until then, this'll have to happen.

Remember... 30 seconds spawn delay means you have a WICKED overpopulation at this point. Our game is extraordinarily harder to balance in general because we do not fit the mold of a traditional FPS (in terms of scale). There's a lot of other considerations at play. I'll keep an eye on it but this seemed like a necessary move based on the trends we're seeing.

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5 hours ago, choad said:

I gotta say ... generally spawn delay seems a bit better than cap timers. My thinking is that .... it is *somewhat* in your control. Don't die. Be more careful/better shot .... whatever. I understand switching missions, you still get hit over the head with it which sucks. Wish it was only applicable if your last mission was KIA. Anyhow, it is somewhat in your control. Cap timers u have zero ability to avoid.

I disagree, you can team up and cap/clear and affect the cap/recap by 50% or more. 

 

Consider it took this many years for cap timers to get to something that actually promotes having large teams in more effectively then the original.  This remains a highly experimental edge RPG design that requires even 'old hands' to change their thinking, buth Rats in GM/coding and players when the new stuff comes down.

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6 hours ago, Capco said:

Correct, especially the last bolded part.  

 

As I said before, if you don't like spawn delay, play for the underpop side.  It's really easy to avoid.  

Everyone just needs to forget that as a primary goal.  It's an option for some, but for most they play for a side or with their buddies. 

Instead it should be you play 24/7 for who you want to, and there are even chances population wise to win- only expertise, organization and focus should win through, not zerg swarms.

Edited by Kilemall

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