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kgarner

Spawn delay 30+ secs?

124 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, csm308 said:

Lame.  Always has been always will be.  I was going to play Allied this campaign and actually spawned in for a sortie this morning.  Had two caps in Baarle Hertog.  But after seeing you post this crap.  Not gonna happen.  When you are representative of the Allied side, I will never help you guys, ever.  I also actively encourage any Axis players who are currently playing Allied, to check out this thread and decide if you need to head straight back to the Axis side.

VR

*sniff sniff* 

You kidding me? What was so offensive to your delicate sensibilites CSM? How dare someone suggest SD has a use! My God get a grip.

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At least it is not 120 + seconds like it was back in the day..  

And the cap timers are now much better for when there is 2 or more players capping, so the 20 sec extra SD is probably a counter move to keep the same level of balance before cap timer changes. I have not had a chance to be playing for more than a couple of sorties in the last month or so but from the  forums/webmap the map looked quite stale / stable for a long time until a couple of days after the new faster cap-timers arrived and then map was over within days... 

These sort of changes are all trial and error by CRS and sometimes they get it right and spot on (like when MSP life became fortified was increased not to die to one single bullet and needed a few HE charges on it) and sometimes just not as lucky (like when the changes were made to the SMG numbers for both sides and tank numbers etc a few months back) 

Also victory tax, if not real should be real and be paid! Victory always brings a multiplier effect for the ToM spent by each player on average (victory in tactical day to day and campaign both). Limited date from the few maps we have shows there is similar number of players for both sides but ToM on the more engaged/winning side is Massively skewed. There should be a balancing force for that.. I don't know what the answer is, but Spawn delay is the most traditional, trialed and tested method that CRS has the most data on probably so no surprise they are pulling the card out of the deck. (albiet not the most creative approach but ey..desperate times, desperate measures!) 

the game has lived on for 18 years (HAPPY WWIIONLINEVERSARY BABY!!) and thanks to the constant feedback and attention of CRS it will live of for many many more years and keep giving us the fun hobby we LOVE and are so addicted to that change to it sometimes gives us small withdrawals until we get hooked on the new ways. 

My 2 cents anyways,

 

It is start of ski season tomorrow here in Queenstown New Zealand, so I probably wont be on as much.  I will be taking my nearly 3 year old daughter for her first snowboarding season! super excited! Our first adventure of the shopping and buying below for you to watch during spawn delays :D we will be visiting Remarkable parks tomorrow and coronet peak the next weekend!

 

S! potthead

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, potthead said:

At least it is not 120 + seconds like it was back in the day..  

And the cap timers are now much better for when there is 2 or more players capping, so the 20 sec extra SD is probably a counter move to keep the same level of balance before cap timer changes. I have not had a chance to be playing for more than a couple of sorties in the last month or so but from the  forums/webmap the map looked quite stale / stable for a long time until a couple of days after the new faster cap-timers arrived and then map was over within days... 

These sort of changes are all trial and error by CRS and sometimes they get it right and spot on (like when MSP life became fortified was increased not to die to one single bullet and needed a few HE charges on it) and sometimes just not as lucky (like when the changes were made to the SMG numbers for both sides and tank numbers etc a few months back) 

Also victory tax, if not real should be real and be paid! Victory always brings a multiplier effect for the ToM spent by each player on average (victory in tactical day to day and campaign both). Limited date from the few maps we have shows there is similar number of players for both sides but ToM on the more engaged/winning side is Massively skewed. There should be a balancing force for that.. I don't know what the answer is, but Spawn delay is the most traditional, trialed and tested method that CRS has the most data on probably so no surprise they are pulling the card out of the deck. (albiet not the most creative approach but ey..desperate times, desperate measures!) 

the game has lived on for 18 years (HAPPY WWIIONLINEVERSARY BABY!!) and thanks to the constant feedback and attention of CRS it will live of for many many more years and keep giving us the fun hobby we LOVE and are so addicted to that change to it sometimes gives us small withdrawals until we get hooked on the new ways. 

My 2 cents anyways,

 

It is start of ski season tomorrow here in Queenstown New Zealand, so I probably wont be on as much.  I will be taking my nearly 3 year old daughter for her first snowboarding season! super excited! Our first adventure of the shopping and buying below for you to watch during spawn delays :D we will be visiting Remarkable parks tomorrow and coronet peak the next weekend!

 

S! potthead

 

 

 

excellent video. but shouldn't you be teaching the children to play cricket whilst they watch the ICC World Cup? which one is you?

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choad took the words right out of my mouth......... best video ive seen in a while........ and I have watched ALOT! lol

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Wth potthead 1 2 3 or whatever we are up too...how dare you humanise yourself with that self serving bloody AWESOME video!

Next you will be telling us that you are a vegan!

 

Dropbear 

Ps awesome video from a proud Qlder that STILL hasn't seen snow.

 

Edited by dropbear
Typo

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finanly  some see we are all human ( well maybe not choad, think he is a cross beteen a russian and a  kodiak beer) 

Hondo Took me  a long time to log in  allied to see what the real problems were first hand.  

they are not realy equip based. (tiger maty both have there hard to kill aspects  early on) not the  map location ( yes axis starts in a hole and allies have three moral buster neer the front line)

but is a cutural  aspect built in early on when Axis HAD to play as a team do to teh type of equip we had ( stug have no mg so need inf suport /  only the  88 could relay deel with the matty8ies bu tneeded a tow and was extreemly vunerabdl to inf attack etc  AXI salso gat  most of the vets do to the lure of playing with  axis equip. ( the myth of plyaig with the vaunted  axis equip?)  

With the RATS getting the abilty of other units an more eqaul terms ( pak 36 now usefull not must  a inf killer to most/  axis having  real good plaines now etc  The alies needed to change  ingrained tactics acrros ther whole board/ that is NOT easy ot do.

The ballnceign of sides would help to bring both sides a taste of what each other has to deel with whil bringin  a dif culture still alive to each side.

This is only a GOOD thing not a "we r better" or you suck" but a change in growth from the way each side has developed do the map/ and equip they  had vs opoonents,

the  curretn 7 map roll would have only gotten wourse with/out a infunsion to stablize teh population and bring the fun factor backto bot side.

if anyoen can retype this  iwuodl apoerciate it not havein a good hand or head day:P  lucky jind is  morking in manic mode:D

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20 hours ago, csm308 said:

Lame.  Always has been always will be.  I was going to play Allied this campaign and actually spawned in for a sortie this morning.  Had two caps in Baarle Hertog.  But after seeing you post this crap.  Not gonna happen.  When you are representative of the Allied side, I will never help you guys, ever.  I also actively encourage any Axis players who are currently playing Allied, to check out this thread and decide if you need to head straight back to the Axis side.

VR

LOL always looking for an excuse to not play allied. Just don't and skip the drama. 

 

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1 minute ago, Mosizlak said:

LOL always looking for an excuse to not play allied. Just don't and skip the drama. 

 

And there's Mo, making s**t up again, as always.

VR

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5 hours ago, drkmouse said:

finanly  some see we are all human ( well maybe not choad, think he is a cross beteen a russian and a  kodiak beer) 

Hondo Took me  a long time to log in  allied to see what the real problems were first hand.  

they are not realy equip based. (tiger maty both have there hard to kill aspects  early on) not the  map location ( yes axis starts in a hole and allies have three moral buster neer the front line)

but is a cutural  aspect built in early on when Axis HAD to play as a team do to teh type of equip we had ( stug have no mg so need inf suport /  only the  88 could relay deel with the matty8ies bu tneeded a tow and was extreemly vunerabdl to inf attack etc  AXI salso gat  most of the vets do to the lure of playing with  axis equip. ( the myth of plyaig with the vaunted  axis equip?)  

With the RATS getting the abilty of other units an more eqaul terms ( pak 36 now usefull not must  a inf killer to most/  axis having  real good plaines now etc  The alies needed to change  ingrained tactics acrros ther whole board/ that is NOT easy ot do.

The ballnceign of sides would help to bring both sides a taste of what each other has to deel with whil bringin  a dif culture still alive to each side.

This is only a GOOD thing not a "we r better" or you suck" but a change in growth from the way each side has developed do the map/ and equip they  had vs opoonents,

the  curretn 7 map roll would have only gotten wourse with/out a infunsion to stablize teh population and bring the fun factor backto bot side.

if anyoen can retype this  iwuodl apoerciate it not havein a good hand or head day:P  lucky jind is  morking in manic mode:D

No, need.  I understood you perfectly.

VR

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I am thankful for the players who have swapped sides our squad has had a nice influx of returning vets who ran with is in the past and new squaddies who fit right in.....some players look for an excuse to go back and they will find one to justify it...their sub their choice for whatever bizarre reasons they use 

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spawn delay is a solution if the problem is too many players online, which is just absurd looking at the current server population 

a "map roll" implies that the gameplay is moving too fast, which is also absurd as the playerbase is declining due to a lack of any gameplay

no one has defined a map roll nor have they even said what is an acceptable # of towns captured per day

there should be less focus on how to handicap a team of 25 players for being "overpopulated" during a main time zone, and more on how population will ever be able to increase

to state the obvious: you cannot charge money for the game in this state, someone logs on and has a queue to play an old laggy FPS game with eight other players they will uninstall and ask for a refund

 

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12 minutes ago, david06 said:

spawn delay is a solution if the problem is too many players online, which is just absurd looking at the current server population 

It's an attempt at a solution when there are too many players on one side relative to the other online.

12 minutes ago, david06 said:

a "map roll" implies that the gameplay is moving too fast, which is also absurd as the playerbase is declining due to a lack of any gameplay

That's not what it implies at all. Gameplay in this game has 2 levels, the Map level, and the tactical/FPS level. Both types of gameplay are broken, sadly. They are not even well tied together, IMO, as the Operational level game writes checks the FPS can't pay. More players locally trumps any claimed unit strength at the operational level.

If 25 players are fighting 5, you see map rolls, the lower pop people might as well not be there at the operational level. A town with a Brigade, and 5 people is not as strong as a Garrison with 25, or indeed just 25 guys with almost no supply at all.

 

12 minutes ago, david06 said:

no one has defined a map roll nor have they even said what is an acceptable # of towns captured per day

I don't think it's a firm thing, it;s like the SCOTUS quote about obscenity, hard to define, but he knows it when he sees it.

If your side can't possibly win any defense (much less considering an attack), then it gets rolled.

12 minutes ago, david06 said:

there should be less focus on how to handicap a team of 25 players for being "overpopulated" during a main time zone, and more on how population will ever be able to increase

They are related, because even if the gameplay mechanics (capture, spawning, etc) were magically fixed, shifting player numbers on different sides would be a problem. That's the issue with a "persistent" game with no real computer controlled units to speak of, there's no way to have it feel like a real battlefield except when player population is somewhere at least tot he point that all players cannot locally be rendered (what's that number now?).

12 minutes ago, david06 said:

to state the obvious: you cannot charge money for the game in this state, someone logs on and has a queue to play an old laggy FPS game with eight other players they will uninstall and ask for a refund

It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. I thought this game was volunteer run at this point, right?

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Should be no SD; solves 2 problems:

First, it lets the players play.

Second, fixes the EnterWorld bug.

Go from 6 min captures and 10 sec SD to 3 min captures and 30 sec SD :(

 

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26 minutes ago, delems said:

Should be no SD; solves 2 problems:

First, it lets the players play.

Second, fixes the EnterWorld bug.

Go from 6 min captures and 10 sec SD to 3 min captures and 30 sec SD :(

 

How does that solve massive overpop on a server wide basis?

I'm not a SD fan, but I'm also not a fan of 3 people defending against 30.

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They don't want spawn delay. They don't want extended cap timers. They want to win, and they want to win now dammit. There are not many alternate solutions that have been brought to the table that are realistic. So where does that leave us?

Reading through all this, my idea sounds better and better .... maybe because of a lack of alternative thoughts.

So i will state it again...

Get rid of spawn delay. If you are KIA on a sortie you get a 20 second delay before you can reenter the game world. The timer starts as soon as u go back to the after action report screen, and counts down .... but doesnt get reset if you change missions like SD does now. It is the game telling you to get better at living, try harder. A penalty for dying that everyone feels .... as it should be. If the side you are playing is underpop, that spawn delay is forgiven to some degree or another. That is your positive reinforcement that so many are going on about.

There is your answer .... you are welcome.

Edited by choad
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5 hours ago, david06 said:

no one has defined a map roll nor have they even said what is an acceptable # of towns captured per day

there should be less focus on how to handicap a team of 25 players for being "overpopulated" during a main time zone, and more on how population will ever be able to increase

 

I did define the loss rate equation, but I expect you would like to ignore that whole answer.

 

The focus on fair play IS about increasing population, at least not making the game a miserable experience for the underpop, but I do think many things along those lines need doing, integrated voice, organic organizing tools and/or much better game explanations available so we aren't so dependent on a Darwinian retention strategy.

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4 hours ago, choad said:

Get rid of spawn delay. If you are KIA on a sortie you get a 20 second delay before you can reenter the game world. The timer starts as soon as u go back to the after action report screen, and counts down .... but doesnt get reset if you change missions like SD does now. It is the game telling you to get better at living, try harder. A penalty for dying that everyone feels .... as it should be. If the side you are playing is underpop, that spawn delay is forgiven to some degree or another. That is your positive reinforcement that so many are going on about.

There is your answer .... you are welcome.

I think this is a great idea, but It's not a solution to the problem that the current SD is addressing, and in fact in that sense, it makes it worse.

Why? Underpop spawns into defense, and they literally walk out the door in their own, supposedly full army base, and get shot. They're not good at living, so they face a delay, during which time more enemy move in. There's no defense ahead of time, they can die 20 seconds apart, and hope they sometimes whittle down the attackers (facing the same delay), or they can take your lesson to heart and NOT DIE. best way to not die? Spawn someplace else. Not necessarily someplace else in this town, someplace else, period. Seems like this just exacerbates the roll ofr the grossly underpop side at that moment.

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8 hours ago, tater said:

I think this is a great idea, but It's not a solution to the problem that the current SD is addressing, and in fact in that sense, it makes it worse.

Why? Underpop spawns into defense, and they literally walk out the door in their own, supposedly full army base, and get shot. They're not good at living, so they face a delay, during which time more enemy move in. There's no defense ahead of time, they can die 20 seconds apart, and hope they sometimes whittle down the attackers (facing the same delay), or they can take your lesson to heart and NOT DIE. best way to not die? Spawn someplace else. Not necessarily someplace else in this town, someplace else, period. Seems like this just exacerbates the roll ofr the grossly underpop side at that moment.

You make great points!

Except i said underpop is forgiven the death penalty to some degree or another. If drastically underpop, forgive it entirely. So priblem solved there.

Edited by choad

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Post said underpop does not get the penalty - or it is less of one.

 

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I'd like to re-state an idea I'd posted before. It got little response (save choad S! ). What I like about it is that it would balance the population, eliminate SD and cap timer manipulation, and it's a little mean-spirited:

1. When a campaign begins, the first time a player enters the game, the side he enters on is his 'official'  side for the duration of the campaign.

     A. If a player switches sides during the campaign, he is subject to friendly fire from both AI and other players for the duration of the campaign

2. After a pre-determined time at the beginning of a campaign, maybe 24-48 hours, new players joining the campaign are subject to the following restrictions.

A. The new player may join the underpopulated side and be under the same terms as 1 and 1.A

B. But if the new player joins the overpopulated side he is automatically subject to friendly fire as in 1.A

 

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2 hours ago, gavalink said:

I'd like to re-state an idea I'd posted before. It got little response (save choad S! ). What I like about it is that it would balance the population, eliminate SD and cap timer manipulation, and it's a little mean-spirited:

1. When a campaign begins, the first time a player enters the game, the side he enters on is his 'official'  side for the duration of the campaign.

     A. If a player switches sides during the campaign, he is subject to friendly fire from both AI and other players for the duration of the campaign

2. After a pre-determined time at the beginning of a campaign, maybe 24-48 hours, new players joining the campaign are subject to the following restrictions.

A. The new player may join the underpopulated side and be under the same terms as 1 and 1.A

B. But if the new player joins the overpopulated side he is automatically subject to friendly fire as in 1.A

 

Spot on gavalink.

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3 hours ago, gavalink said:

I'd like to re-state an idea I'd posted before. It got little response (save choad S! ). What I like about it is that it would balance the population, eliminate SD and cap timer manipulation, and it's a little mean-spirited:

1. When a campaign begins, the first time a player enters the game, the side he enters on is his 'official'  side for the duration of the campaign.

     A. If a player switches sides during the campaign, he is subject to friendly fire from both AI and other players for the duration of the campaign

2. After a pre-determined time at the beginning of a campaign, maybe 24-48 hours, new players joining the campaign are subject to the following restrictions.

A. The new player may join the underpopulated side and be under the same terms as 1 and 1.A

B. But if the new player joins the overpopulated side he is automatically subject to friendly fire as in 1.A

 

Respectfully, I don't think this would solve the problem -- it would in fact cement it as it exists now.

The "problem" with population is due to side and squad loyalty. Note that I put problem in quotes, I understand that loyalty is not an actual problem. People simply don't want to switch off from the side they have chosen because they typically want to stay with their friends. It is that simple and yet that makes it a terribly difficult issue to address. There is nothing to incentivize people to switch to the underpop side, unless those players are generally lonewolves. And lets be clear, I am not talking in terms of Allies being underpop and Axis being overpop - I mean "side" objectively. It doesn't matter which is which, dedicated players don't want to swap. I sure as hell haven't swapped to play Axis this past couple of days. My squad is so few as it is, even during overpop times. Last time I did switch I, rather accidentally yet inevitably, ran up against my own squad. Nobody really wants to do that for any extended basis.

I know there are the "get gud" people just waiting for the opportunity to pounce, but it really is just a numbers game. We need new blood to stick around long enough to become bitter old [censored] guarding depots. How to accomplish that when there is so much poison flying around (Steam is a dumpster fire) from vets who are pissed the game didn't evolve the way they wanted -- that is a whole other can of worms I guess.

 

Edited by Randazzo
Removed unecessary antagonism
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*** They don't want spawn delay.

TRUE!

 

*** They don't want extended cap timers.

TRUE!

 

*** They want to win

TRUE!

 

*** and they want to win now dammit. 

FALSE.

We want to PLAY now and capture in some sane time; not sit at waiting screens.

How come SD wasn't tried at 15, or 20?  How come jump from 10 to 30?

Besides, remove SD and EnterWorld bug goes away.

 

Edited by delems

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