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tater

ATG survivability improvement (as a limited MSP)

37 posts in this topic

Hmmm, how about a DIRECT reward?  ML/org leader gives point awards to people who do as they say and extra for tasks completed?

 

Most of us don't care about ranking up, but the newer players do.  Bring them up to pay attention to orders through rank snacks?

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41 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Judging by that little morale bar on the original persona, I guess they intended to really do that?

Not sure. I never heard details of the original plan.

One could guess though that Morale was an unfinished development element from the pre-release difficulties.

The summary posted above was from a discussion in the Design/Beta forum, around the time that Rapid Assault was being worked on.

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42 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Hmmm, how about a DIRECT reward?  ML/org leader gives point awards to people who do as they say and extra for tasks completed?

 

Most of us don't care about ranking up, but the newer players do.  Bring them up to pay attention to orders through rank snacks?

I always thought that we should forget the ranks we have (those could be forum ranks, lol), and have them point based, at least by persona.

All start as Pvt, and the regular enlisted ranks (varies by country in ww2) exist, even getting promoted to a junior officer (HC peeps maybe can assign points to at some rate/day). Caps, FB/FMS take downs, kills all gain points. Being near (XX meters) ML or near other mission members? More points. Giving ammo? Points. Guarding a CP? Points. Marking map? Points. Taking certain units might gain points, so mortars/LMGs could be rewarded regardless of kills (suppressive fire, smoke, etc). ML can have some points for a give mission he can give out as attaboys. Death, MIA loses points. If you spawn a Sgt, do nothing on a sortie, and get killed, you might be most of the way to losing that rank (down 1 notch? More? Back to pvt? Decide with playtesting).

I would then have all the ToEs Squad/Section/Gruppe/whatever based, very strict.

UK/Ger would be 1 LMG, 1 SMG, 8 rifles.

France: 1 LMG, 1 Gren, 10 rifles.

US: 1 BAR, 9 rifles (odd here since 3 M1 had grenade projectors, but whatever).

Then the ranks can buy the special units past the ToE out of the spawnlist. You're an NCO? You can scroung a SMG if you want. Or a sniper rifle, ATR, etc.

A ML might get a Corporal rank by default if they are lower right now, and ML might be allowed to add special units, say the mission is a mortar squad to bomb an AB from the other side of some trees, for example. Anyway, other ideas could be added. People die enough that the goal of the death/mia penalty would be such that we'd have most players with an in-game rank at any given moment of Pvt.

Officer ranks could come with limitations, perhpas, and you could chose to spawn as an officer, or enlisted. Not sure what the carrot and stick is here, or if the highest officer we usually see might usually be a flavor of lieutenant, anything above is HC only?

All the inf loadouts could change a little, so that a Pvt rifle has ammo, maybe 2X, and no satchel. a Cpl rifle has 1 of each, Sgt might have 2 satchels or something.

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On 6/24/2019 at 11:30 PM, Kilemall said:

Hmmm, how about a DIRECT reward?  ML/org leader gives point awards to people who do as they say and extra for tasks completed?

 

Most of us don't care about ranking up, but the newer players do.  Bring them up to pay attention to orders through rank snacks?

What about the [censored]in when they do not get the points they feel they deserve? Or if ML despawns quickly to get to a DO in trouble?

 

S! ian 

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No to hand out of points or any of that sorts. 

The way we have it ,is fine and it works.

So many players do things when no HC is on that are important but heck no HC online no recognition .

Lot of times a town is under attack and it's not going so good for the defenders cause they rather chase a few EI then do the obvious. 

I take Opel set FMS call my Squad mates in rare occasions even done it myself ( takes forever and one can only hope enemy doesn't pay attention)  we or I take down FB ,stops attack dead in its tracks .

Recognition = none.

HC was [censored]ing about responsibilities before 1.36 why add another burden onto them. And burn them out faster when players  [censored] at them for not giving players awards.

Let us rank via points .

Make support points , like setting a FMS brining Ammo or towing and hand out points that way along with how we get points now and all is good .

I really don't think we need to revamp the ranking system at all.

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29 minutes ago, dre21 said:

I really don't think we need to revamp the ranking system at all.

This is really for another thread (rank), but I think that the current in-game rank system is entirely meaningless (there can be some other indicator of time subbed, etc). Does anyone care about rank? If the vast majority of ranks you see in game are not "private," something is completely broken in any rank system. I think that rank should either reset with death, or have a point based system for doing things that are valuable (gameplay), and points are removed for doing things that are not valuable (dying, MIA, ToM inside the depot). Points awarded (automatically) for: capping, guarding (ToM in a flag building), blowing EFMS/FB, ToM over target (air), any flight in a plane as inf, handing out ammo (or crate), setting FMS, kills, etc. There would be a substantial minus for ending up KIA. The points would be tweaked so that if a platoon worth of men spawned in in an AO, they would roughly have the right number of each rank---for the Germans, roughly 1 officer, ~7 NCOs, 30-something Pvts.

The goal here is that most players are some form of Private at any given moment (Pvt, Pfc, etc), then the next enlisted ranks, with even the odd Lt around.  Have the ranks allow choice in what weapons to spawn, and lower ranks get less choice. Ie: is a nominal squad/section/gruppe is 1 LMG, 1 SMG, 8 rifles (varies by year), then Pvts can spawn whatever of those are left (have the inf spawn cycle such that the list all have those 10, and refill). Pfcs (equiv in other armies) might have added specialist units (gren, mortar, etc), and so forth. NCOs might always be able to scrounge a SMG as long as the brigade still has any (as the spawns are now). Similar for ATGs, Pvts can get the smaller ATGs, and you might need to be an NCO for the largest ones, the best tanks, and so forth.

 

Edited by tater

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I see your point Tater, but you are basically creating a game where very little guarding or capping will ever happen, without a huge pop imbalance/ninja style. Why risk my points by going into a possible death zone. Stay outside and snipe, and I will be rewarded with better toys. Go and try and defend and if I die I wont get to respawn the nice toy. Why drive a truck to the AO to die to a low flying EA or EI out bushwhacking trucks... why risk my points?

I seem to recall a suggestion (think it was Delems) that rank points should be "reduced" every week or every RDP, so no play, and you will slowly go back in rank. Play and you will get the points to offset any deficit accrued.  

Another suggestion for in game micro purchases was allowing players to buy an additional new rank icon - so you would be maxed out, and buy another for $5.99 and become a double "doughnut" or "triple" etc - plenty of stat hos in the game want others to see their uberness....

But an actual deduction of points rather than a reduction of points earned for KIA v MIA v RES v RTB is going to mess with game play even more. We have too few doing the "chores" to then punish them is just daft.

S! Ian 

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26 minutes ago, ian77 said:

I see your point Tater, but you are basically creating a game where very little guarding or capping will ever happen, without a huge pop imbalance/ninja style. Why risk my points by going into a possible death zone. Stay outside and snipe, and I will be rewarded with better toys. Go and try and defend and if I die I wont get to respawn the nice toy. Why drive a truck to the AO to die to a low flying EA or EI out bushwhacking trucks... why risk my points?

A few things. Since the vast majority of weapons in ww2 were crewed by Pvts, it means that virtually everything is available to them, it's just limited by a more realistic ToE at the spawn point (the Brigade can still have the same number of toys, but they are dolled out in realistic squads (all the squad spawned, then start over) except where "bought" via higher ranks (where most of those are still Pfcs).

As to your concern, I don't see it at all, I never listed the points.

I'll make up a scheme (not thought out at all): You might get 1 point for a kill, and 10 points for capping or guarding, and death costs 10-15, MIA costs 5, RES costs 1, RTB gains a point. If ~20% of infantry are NCOs or junior officers, the goal is for about 20% to manage to make it to that rank at any moment. So the cost to bump from rank to rank might be 20 or something. Losing points busts you to the rank level with your current point total (ie: if you get bumped to 1 point below Cpl, your next spawn is a Pfc, not a Pvt, it might take a few deaths to bust you to Pvt, several if you are doing useful things with your NCO (lose 15, but gained 10 by capping, so you only lose 5... guys that are really good will make Master Sgt (whatever), and might have enough excess points built up that they can die many times and still be a Sgt.

Since the points are primarily perks at when you can pick something, it's a carrot, but also if done right and you see a Master Sgt---FOLLOW THAT GUY, HE'S EPIC.

The system gets adjusted to meet the goal, you don't design a system then see what happens, you do that, then iterate until we see desired effects.

Edited by tater

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To be clear, the goal is:

1. for in game ranks to match the real world a little better. (mostly forms of private, shown somehow on icon/map).

2. NCOs are differentiated in icons/map.

3. Senior NCOs get a unique color icon---because the point system rewards doing good things in game, and punishes death, following that Sgt is a Good Idea™.

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11 minutes ago, tater said:

To be clear, the goal is:

1. for in game ranks to match the real world a little better. (mostly forms of private, shown somehow on icon/map).

2. NCOs are differentiated in icons/map.

3. Senior NCOs get a unique color icon---because the point system rewards doing good things in game, and punishes death, following that Sgt is a Good Idea™.

People wont subscribe to a game that will not let them spawn a weapon they either have the rank for, but we still need 8 guys to be a rifle first, or that says, sorry you are not allowed an smg after 18 years of playing because you no longer have the rank to spawn it. Trying to make paying customers spawn items "you" want them to spawn for the sake of "realism" is never going to work. We have rifles to spawn, if a paying customer wants a rifle he will spawn it, if he is planning on defending a CP in this GAME  chances are they will go for a SMG. 

As for stick with the sarge - what happens if he is not wanting to defend, but is trying to get to an EFMS? I wouldn't want a load of puppies following me all over the map because they get points for it... hell no. Everyone following the senior NCO is not in the least realistic. 

 

S! ian 

 

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14 minutes ago, ian77 said:

People wont subscribe to a game that will not let them spawn a weapon they either have the rank for, but we still need 8 guys to be a rifle first, or that says, sorry you are not allowed an smg after 18 years of playing because you no longer have the rank to spawn it. Trying to make paying customers spawn items "you" want them to spawn for the sake of "realism" is never going to work. We have rifles to spawn, if a paying customer wants a rifle he will spawn it, if he is planning on defending a CP in this GAME  chances are they will go for a SMG. 

This already happens in game when all the SMGs are used up. My suggestion preserves the number of SMGs so that when you need one, it's likely there. This already happens when other units people prefer but are even less common than SMGs are used up.

Everything can be tweaked. NCOs of a certain rank (anything above Cpl?) might ALWAYS be able to scrounge the inf weapon of their choice for that tier, regardless of ToE.

Should people be able to spawn a Tiger in Tier 0 because they've been playing 18 years? How is that different?

If there are 8 good tanks (I have no idea, I don't play tanks much), and since everyone is an officer in the game, people waste all of the good tanks, when in RL the lesser ones were more common, doesn't that harm the tank vet who saw "his" tank wasted by the likes of me, who almost never spawns one?

Quote

As for stick with the sarge - what happens if he is not wanting to defend, but is trying to get to an EFMS? I wouldn't want a load of puppies following me all over the map because they get points for it... hell no. Everyone following the senior NCO is not in the least realistic.

Green tags might, and that might do them (and everyone) good. Given the mixed melee nature of this game (zero front, homogeneous mix of friend and foe everywhere, and FMS 360 degrees, everywhere, it's not like people will follow the NCO on the other side of town, they'll more likely follow the one right next to them. The icon range can be set to only show this status close, so the effect would only happen within this range (else you don't see the rank).

I already do this, there are certain players I tend to see a lot, and I know they know what they are doing, and I follow/help them if I spawn in after they do, and I see them ahead on the attack.

Edited by tater

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The other thread that is discussing Matties vs 88s made me want to repeat this:

88s used defensively are one thing, and offensively, another. While a heavy FMS deals with both use cases, for defensive uses, I have always thought that ATGs should be able to move far, far faster as long as they are within some range of the town---X km, maybe with an exclusion of some size around the enemy FB, and no AO is set. Faster as it inf sprint speed, no stamina hit.

I'd go so far as to add, that if AOs are supposed to be there to allow defenders some time to prepare for an attack, then this sprint with no stamina hit could be added to inf in the same situation---ie: if AO is not set, "inf" units (infantry and AAA/ATGs) all get to move at sprint speed all the time. This allows defensive forces to pre-deploy in places that are actually useful, while at the same time encouraging the paradigm of: Place AO, then move fores into EWS range (vs the current: pre-load as many units as possible into town area, then set AO).

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