rommel33

Aircraft visibility range

22 posts in this topic

Any reason for it to be extremely short? The black circle already disspears at 3km. How does one suppose to keep visual for boom and zoom when vertical distance goes is over 3km?

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Gray circle range begins at 4km and the aircraft max LOD (level of detail) is out to 6km, at this time. There's been talk of extending that but I'll let HATCH respond to that.

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I wonder if different video cards dont see the spec. Becuase I hear alot saying it's nowhere near 6km myself included no matter what Sniper62 says he sees I've tried 3 separate cards and cannot see the past 3-4 km. Nvidia gtx 680, nvidia rtx 2070 and ati HD 6950. Sadly the best vis view setting is by decreasing settings down to balanced which is beyond odd  seems to reduce the haze a bit. if I'm at 6 km and fly over an ao I cannot see the circle of ea till about 4km and the not on the ground 

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36 minutes ago, zaltor said:

I wonder if different video cards dont see the spec. Becuase I hear alot saying it's nowhere near 6km myself included no matter what Sniper62 says he sees I've tried 3 separate cards and cannot see the past 3-4 km. Nvidia gtx 680, nvidia rtx 2070 and ati HD 6950. Sadly the best vis view setting is by decreasing settings down to balanced which is beyond odd  seems to reduce the haze a bit. if I'm at 6 km and fly over an ao I cannot see the circle of ea till about 4km and the not on the ground 

My offer still stands to hop in game and do some testing with you. Multicrew a 110, look at the same target at the same distance and go from there.

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im refering to the way it use to be when vis/render range was good, distance was 6km, render was possible and look at those tracers coming up. I think we made these  videos about 2005 before haze for most of the clips.

 

Edited by zaltor

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You can test it yourself offline. Duplicate your aircraft in air and watch them dissapear around the distance the black circle becomes full.

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On 6/17/2019 at 5:13 AM, rommel33 said:

You can test it yourself offline. Duplicate your aircraft in air and watch them dissapear around the distance the black circle becomes full.

That grey circle disappears at 4km and if you look closely enough, you will still be able to see the little, only a few pixels, of the plane out to 6km.

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36 minutes ago, SNIPER62 said:

That grey circle disappears at 4km and if you look closely enough, you will still be able to see the little, only a few pixels, of the plane out to 6km.

As you continue to prove the 6km vision distance is not possible take note below.

from the icons Manual in game. 

6000+= Full Circle 3400m = 3/4 Circle 1500m = 1/2 circle 1499m = Color change (red = enemy, Blue= friendly) 499m = friendly Squad name visible 400m = 1/4 Circle

 

Let me know when this becomes true again.

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Those few pixels dont really stand out from clear sky background to make them practically visible. I'm not going to strain my eyes to death infront of a monitor, doing the 'find that pixel' game for an aircraft which only supposed to be 6km apart.

The problem is the circle fades out too quickly.

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7 hours ago, zaltor said:

As you continue to prove the 6km vision distance is not possible take note below.

from the icons Manual in game. 

6000+= Full Circle 3400m = 3/4 Circle 1500m = 1/2 circle 1499m = Color change (red = enemy, Blue= friendly) 499m = friendly Squad name visible 400m = 1/4 Circle

 

Let me know when this becomes true again.

Let's flip the script a bit - what do you think a fighter sized aircraft should look like @6000m - please provide an image.  

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1 hour ago, B2K said:

 

Let's flip the script a bit - what do you think a fighter sized aircraft should look like @6000m - please provide an 

I post what it use to be and what it still say it is in game. 

In a clear sky in reality an aircraft can be spotted at 6 km plus. But the game doesn't allow that and with the past haze changes it made it worse, thus why we use contact icons,  other game dont do it but the renderer actually let's you see at distance.

 

Players bring up things that have changed and sniper and you feel then need to attack them for pointing it out, I made my choice a couple weeks ago do to these dealings, as I said just keep shrinking the player base.

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8 hours ago, zaltor said:

As you continue to prove the 6km vision distance is not possible take note below.

from the icons Manual in game. 

6000+= Full Circle 3400m = 3/4 Circle 1500m = 1/2 circle 1499m = Color change (red = enemy, Blue= friendly) 499m = friendly Squad name visible 400m = 1/4 Circle

 

Let me know when this becomes true again.

For the 10th time, yes we know what the manual says. I also said this, " There's been talk of extending that but I'll let HATCH respond to that.". It was HATCH's call that we not extend the grey circle range beyond 4km. It's also been like this since at or before 2005. If HATCH wants to go into more detail, he will.

The in game manual will be updated to reflect the proper distance that the grey circle appears at.

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32 minutes ago, zaltor said:

I post what it use to be and what it still say it is in game. 

In a clear sky in reality an aircraft can be spotted at 6 km plus. But the game doesn't allow that and with the past haze changes it made it worse, thus why we use contact icons,  other game dont do it but the renderer actually let's you see at distance.

 

Players bring up things that have changed and sniper and you feel then need to attack them for pointing it out, I made my choice a couple weeks ago do to these dealings, as I said just keep shrinking the player base.

I"m asking for you to provide some kind of visual example of what you think it should be. 

That's not an attack - that's a request for information. 

Sniper has already provided information from the code side of things, which you dismiss.  Since you don't believe what Sniper is saying the code does.  What do YOU expect it to be?  This is called expectation setting.  You obviously are expecting something that you think isn't  being delivered.   Also, is this about the distance an aircraft comes into 'view' (however few pixels that is), or the range the circle comes into existence (they are different)?

Since this is a graphic/visual related issue - an example of what YOU think an aircraft should look like in-game at 6Km (ideally to scale) will go a long way towards helping further the discussion.  

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5 hours ago, rommel33 said:

Those few pixels dont really stand out from clear sky background to make them practically visible. I'm not going to strain my eyes to death infront of a monitor, doing the 'find that pixel' game for an aircraft which only supposed to be 6km apart.

The problem is the circle fades out too quickly.

There's actually two parts to the grey circle. One is the distance that it starts to fade in at, 4km, and the other is the fade itself. It's supposed to represent a "focus" by the pilot looking at an area. This means that the grey circle just doesn't pop up at full brightness immediately, you've got to look at the same area for a few seconds.

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1 hour ago, SNIPER62 said:

There's actually two parts to the grey circle. One is the distance that it starts to fade in at, 4km, and the other is the fade itself. It's supposed to represent a "focus" by the pilot looking at an area. This means that the grey circle just doesn't pop up at full brightness immediately, you've got to look at the same area for a few seconds.

I know about the focus mechanic. I meant that the circle (which is practically the only thing i can rely on with a 20" monitor until distance is less than 100m) isnt visible at long enough distance when viewed indefinitely. It shoub be extended to around 8km.

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Whoever updated that manual the last time put the wrong figures in it. The rendering of the circle has not changed in the code for over a decade. Matter of fact, I am not aware of it ever changing since we first set it up, and it was intended to be a ranging tool (for better weapon ranging estimation) as you closed on your target, (or your target closed on you in the case of AA work) not as a halo for pointing you out at max range.

It has always been actual object render out to 6-8k, then ranging and ID info available at 4k and closer. And as Sniper has already said, it also has a "focus" algorithm added that makes it more "solid" the longer the "bogie" is kept in your visual field of view (FOV), and begin to fade the longer it isn't. In other words, if you look away from the bogie for too long (lose the bogie outside the the primary FOV) the icon information fades away and requires you to get it back and keep it in your FOV for a few seconds to start getting the range and ID information back.

We designed it that way specifically to address the "neon billboard" icon issue most flight sims had at the time where they basically stuck a neon billboard of an icon on you in a binary (on-off) fashion as soon as you were renderable. As hardcore simulation enthusiasts we always hated that effect.

Why go through all the trouble?  To better simulate bogie informational acquisition AND loss. Air combat is about individual and multiple target acquisition, constantly updated situational awareness, AND maneuvering/gunnery. Anyone that spends any time reading about air combat should be aware of how fast the state of "a sky full of bogies" to being  "alone in an empty sky" (or vice versa) happens. How does that happen with icons neon lighting your plane as soon as you come into render range? Sure icons make target acquisition easier, but sure didn't do anything for defensive and evasive maneuvering. So we fixed it.

Before, if your opponent was in a faster AC, unless you could kill him, you were at his mercy. Because even if you could outfly him, you could never evade him. If you maneuvered out of his sight, even out to render range, all he had to do was look for your easily noticeable "billboard" icon, point his nose in that direction, and reel you back in. WWIIOL changed all that. For the first time (in at least my online flight simming history dating back to around 1993), you could force a temporary loss of sight, and if wily enough to maintain it long enough, make your opponent lose contact with you all together because you didn't have a brightly visible neon sign highlighting your location the entire time you are in vis/render distance.

So that's the reason it works the way it does, and I'm not in favor of changing basic functionality. Specifics are negotiable, but need to be presented with the initial design intent considered. Am I in favor of pushing ranging and ID info  (icon render range) out to 6km. No, not really. Is there a way for us to increase the size of the rendered object itself beyond the informational icon ranges a little to help compensate for the compressed FOV of a computer monitor?  Probably so, and I wouldn't be opposed to that.

My wartime info, though mostly anecdotal, says that instantaneous recognition and orientation (Not detection) was difficult under the best of circumstances past 3500-4000m. It is the primary reason you had specific identification markings on so many of the aircraft of both sides. To help prevent the very real issue of friendly fire fratricide. P-47's being mistaken for FW-190's, P-51B's being mistaken for Me-109's etc... Imho, that is pretty clear confirmation of the real life difficulty that they experienced with detection and identification of both friendly and enemy aircraft at range, and even within firing distance.

Now to be open and inclusive, Sniper has pointed out to me a modern study (1998 I think) that used a DC3 as a test bed that shows detection and orientation out to like 23km? IF you are already aware of and scanning the known piece of sky in which the test AC will appear. The same study also says that normal non-predetermined vector detection and orientation of the DC3 test AC was 5-8km under optimal conditions.

As nice as the data in that non-wartime study is, there are a couple of unanswered questions warranted imho... Was that DC3 in military, or civilian liverie making it easier to identify? The DC3/C-47 is the one of the largest planes in the game with a bigger wingspan at 99 feet than that of even the He-111, while all fighters, and the majority of AC in the game with the exception of the Bf-110 and P-38, come in at less than half that size, making detection, identification, and orientation that much more difficult...

Anyways, I think I've gone on long enough and clarified our initial, and my current thoughts on the matter. We'll continue to follow discussion and consider all perspectives.

 

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all the theorycrafting and justification bypasses the fact that:

1. pilots don't like flying around in a fishbowl

2. this game used to have the biggest online pilot population

no flight simmer is going to pay a premium sub to fly around in a fishbowl where textbook WW2 tactics like BnZ can't even work properly, chiding them for having unrealistic expectations probably isn't helping things

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10 minutes ago, david06 said:

all the theorycrafting and justification bypasses the fact that:

1. pilots don't like flying around in a fishbowl

2. this game used to have the biggest online pilot population

no flight simmer is going to pay a premium sub to fly around in a fishbowl where textbook WW2 tactics like BnZ can't even work properly, chiding them for having unrealistic expectations probably isn't helping things

Why changing subjects? fishbowl is something we have been working on, but that’s not what this discussion is about. Stay on topic or make a new post on the topic.

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Detection fades were never commented as a problem, so no need to mention it. I started this discussion purely for static visibility issues.

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1 hour ago, rommel33 said:

Detection fades were never commented as a problem, so no need to mention it. I started this discussion purely for static visibility issues.

Except that it ties in with what I said about target acquisition when in current FOV past what my wartime data typically says you would have range and identification/orientation ability. For instance, if we are in a fight, and your plane is faster than mine whether statistically or because I have taken battle damage, and I am able to make you lose sight of me long enough to get some separation, and increase that separation past 4K, you will not be able to reacquire me by my informational icon and chase me down. You would at that point have to reacquire me by my plane itself, even after figuring out which way I went and keeping me in your FOV. Pushing the informational range icons to 6k gives you 2 more km with which to just figure out which direction I went that you need to focus your FOV on to reacquire me by an artificial neon sign around my plane, to then chase me down, hampering my ability to disengage and limp home.

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I'll rephrase. If you were to disengage me, while i have you in my FOV the entire time, you shouldnt just vanish infront of my eyes just because separation went past 4km. Likewise if i attack from above and zoom back up (while maintaining sight), i should still be able to locate the target past 4km vertical separation. Right now there is no incentive to retain hight, as you are shortsighted.

Edited by rommel33

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