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tater

Rural CP concepts.

15 posts in this topic

It's been mentioned a few places, often with the idea of adding out of town CPs pretty much everywhere. General idea would be to make use of existing buildings that work in a rural setting, but cloning them, and adding a "capture" texture to them. Note that while people talk of adding them everywhere, it could just be adding them somewhere, to start.

Other buildings can work that already have a capture texture: Two bunkers, the one building one, and the farm compound would both work for this with no changes at all (you'd have to be in the radio room to cap), but cloned versions could allow the entire footprint (including the yard parts) to work.

There is that other group of farm buildings (barns, etc) that would work as well. Open CPs, and even open spawning is fine sometimes (FMS get camped).

Two other buildings occur to me that could be used along the Maginot Line, or for some of the forts in the Low Countries: The real bunker looking bunker (like the one at Charlois Rail Center) would totally work as a sort of representation of a Maginot Line point. Not perfect by any stretch, but it could add some interest to those areas. There are minor fortifications all the way to the channel, and that real bunker looking bunker could totally work as an isolated strongpoint. It would need a spawn point inside, as well (that represents underground barracks, etc)., but the spawn lists don't have to be huge.

zDNOgQ5.png

 

The concrete pill boxes could be CPs as well (with a capture texture inside). Those don't work for a spawn point, perhaps there is a way to alter them slightly to allow one.

Here's an idea for the Maginot Line concept.

Take that Charlois Rail Center type bunker. That building has a sort of concrete porch, with an opening to the outside (tank traps in front), and then a door to the interior. That part also projects out as a side room. Close the porch off with a ramp (inside the porch) as a separate object. It is impossible for ei to get in, but inf inside can get out (like how you get out of inf FB). Add an interior spawn point to the bunker (platoon sized spawn list?), and make the whole interior the capture zone, not just the radio room. Now we have a CP that also contains a spawn, and it is 100% safe from ei coming in. How then is this a capture point? Because unlike the other bunkers, this one has a damage state. The damage state is entirely to the new ramp object, and as this is a Maginot type fortress, it might take a decent amount to blow (like as many as a FB takes?) On the other side of the bunker from the current door add a veh spawn, whichcould just be more camo netting (the building forms 2 sides of a rectangle there, so just add a post to hold it up). This is for truck/ATG spawning.

These structures would be placed with the door to the safe (France) side (in the image above, the "front" is to the right), and the firing holes pointed OUT, towards the border. You'd pick good places to put them where they command some ground, very specifically not where bushlines lead right to them, blocking fields of fire.

Note that without the porch covered, an epic para drop could land a guy who could clear it without ever blowing it.

I suppose the real question is "can a "town" only have 1 CP?" I think ideally these rural CPs would not in fact be linked to a town (or not in all cases), but could in fact BE the town. The trick there is that the game mechanics are contest-cap. If that is the case, and if adding new towns amid other towns is an issue (since the CPs around all other towns need to be changed to link some to these new, rural CPs), then these rural CPs have to be part of the extant towns. If that is the case, then they act just like Depots now, only with the new buildings suggested. This also suggests that they should get AI, and the EWS might need some tweaking. AI for the Maginot line type structures could look like this:

mgturret_1.jpg

and require HEAT to take out. Given that the Germans might take it, let the AI have a 360 degree field of fire (so 1 AI can defend for both sides owning it), but make the detection and firing range shorter (lack of visibility). Also, 360 doesn't mean it has to turn fast.

 

Edited by tater
typos
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Ugh, I had tried to edit this and add a pic, but my mouse removed swiped the page back.

The farm compound bunker is here:

X2fEueR.png

This would work in many situations as a CP, or even as a whole "town" in one object (if a new town link was to be created, instead of making the rural CPs a CP to the nearby town).

The one entrance is perhaps a problem, and like the cool bunker pictured in the first post, a new object could created that is in this use case placed right against this structure ^^^.

It would be another barn, same texture as this, but against one of the walls, either just to the right of the gate (near the actual bunker part), or on the left side, or even the back. That one is for ATG/truck spawning. The object could either have a stair that literally goes up and over the wall, or it could have a damage model that results in a rubble pile that allows scaling the wall.

I think any new objects considered for CPs and Depots (generic term here for a CP-related spawn point) should have some novel functionality using damage models (DMs). Current Depot DM allows alternate egress from the building (which is frankly as awful as the roof-leaping), but the CP/Depot, and indeed even bunker DMs could be used in a way that allows for different attack and defense than we usually see.

The idea of 1-way exits for the owner that require blowing something I think is interesting, even if as simple as a steel door that requires a sap charge to open (might have to be a separate object for that (PPO?)), since defenders can be safer until they hear the boom (something like the pillbox, but not as utterly useless as that object is).

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3 hours ago, tater said:

It's been mentioned a few places, often with the idea of adding out of town CPs pretty much everywhere. General idea would be to make use of existing buildings that work in a rural setting, but cloning them, and adding a "capture" texture to them.

Other buildings can work that already have a capture texture: Two bunkers, the one building one, and the farm compound would both work for this with no changes at all (you'd have to be in the radio room to cap), but cloned versions could allow the entire footprint (including the yard parts) to work.

There is that other group of farm buildings (barns, etc) that would work as well. Open CPs, and even open spawning is fine sometimes (FMS get camped).

Two other buildings occur to me that could be used along the Maginot Line, or for some of the forts in the Low Countries: The real bunker looking bunker (like the one at Charlois Rail Center) would totally work as a sort of representation of a Maginot Line point. Not perfect by any stretch, but it could add some interest to those areas. There are minor fortifications all the way to the channel, and that real bunker looking bunker could totally work as an isolated strongpoint. It would need a spawn point inside, as well (that represents underground barracks, etc)., but the spawn lists don't have to be huge.

zDNOgQ5.png

 

The concrete pill boxes could be CPs as well (with a capture texture inside). Those don't work for a spawn point, perhaps there is a way to alter them slightly to allow one.

Here's an idea for the Maginot Line concept.

Take that Charlois Rail Center type bunker. That building has a sort of concrete porch, with an opening to the outside (tank traps in front), and then a door to the interior. That part also projects out as a side room. Close the porch off with a ramp (inside the porch) as a separate object. It is impossible for ei to get in, but inf inside can get out (like how you get out of inf FB). Add an interior spawn point to the bunker (platoon sized spawn list?), and make the whole interior the capture zone, not just the radio room. Now we have a CP that also contains a spawn, and it is 100% safe from ei coming in. How then is this a capture point? Because unlike the other bunkers, this one has a damage state. The damage state is entirely to the new ramp object, and as this is a Maginot type fortress, it might take a decent amount to blow (like as many as a FB takes?) On the other side of the bunker from the current door add a veh spawn, whichcould just be more camo netting (the building forms 2 sides of a rectangle there, so just add a post to hold it up). This is for truck/ATG spawning.

These structures would be placed with the door to the safe (France) side (in the image above, the "front" is to the right), and the firing holes pointed OUT, towards the border. You'd pick good places to put them where they command some ground, very specifically not where bushlines lead right to them, blocking fields of fire.

Note that without the porch covered, an epic para drop could land a guy who could clear it without ever blowing it.

I suppose the real question is "can a "town" only have 1 CP?" I think ideally these rural CPs would not in fact be linked to a town (or not in all cases), but could in fact BE the town. The trick there is that the game mechanics are contest-cap. If that is the case, and if adding new towns amid other towns is an issue (since the CPs around all other towns need to be changed to link some to these new, rural CPs), then these rural CPs have to be part of the extant towns. If that is the case, then they act just like Depots now, only with the new buildings suggested. This also suggests that they should get AI, and the EWS might need some tweaking. AI for the Maginot line type structures could look like this:

mgturret_1.jpg

and require HEAT to take out. Given that the Germans might take it, let the AI have a 360 degree field of fire (so 1 AI can defend for both sides owning it), but make the detection and firing range shorter (lack of visibility). Also, 360 doesn't mean it has to turn fast.

 

15

In theory, a town could have a single CP, but I'm assuming that it would work to similar mechanics as the FB function providing there's somewhere for units to spawn. One of the dev guys may be better placed to answer. That's a cool idea! S!

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11 minutes ago, WESTY91 said:

In theory, a town could have a single CP, but I'm assuming that it would work to similar mechanics as the FB function providing there's somewhere for units to spawn. One of the dev guys may be better placed to answer. That's a cool idea! S!

The idea for capture (if a single facility) was that the object is in fact a compound of 2-3 objects that actually touch. The Bunker itself is indestructible (that one above, unlike the houses looks the part), but the part that add the ramp (making entry impossible) is simply blown. This functionality is only for "maginot" structures, to abstract the infantry quartered underground.

Regular rural outposts are liekly just commandeered farms, etc.

Still, the addition of a small, easy to create object (PPO, perhpas?) to close certain facilities is an interesting one. We don't have arbitrarily destructible walls, for example (no shooting a hole in anything), but the idea of objects to fill this role is an interesting one. Where the work is far too time consuming for Devs, perhaps PPOs could fill this role.

Take the AB "murder holes." Added for the gamey purpose of allowing inf in and out, it results in ABs being infiltrated, sometimes before the AO even happens (while the dimwits with MGs sit there and ignore them). What if a PPO could in fact block the MHs? Or PPO doors. They could have damage levels set realistically low (doors not made of steel blow when anything bigger than small arms hits them, steel might take a satchel). Only special units can place them, but it encourages that for defense. Man a place, then close the door, and concentrate on fighting from the place, instead of concentrating on hiding with a gun at the door. Such units might only spawn at the "fortress" spawn points (very few, or even 1 per spawn list).

Add steel door, small sandbags to fill windows, etc to that trooper. Again, things that a tank could blow in some cases, inf in another, other defensive barriers might take HEAT (sapper or para). Creates reasons for those special units.

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Rural CPs is a great idea.  I suspect it might be a bit difficult to implement.  The map is very large.   

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8 minutes ago, blakeh said:

Rural CPs is a great idea.  I suspect it might be a bit difficult to implement.  The map is very large.   

Yeah, that's why I think that the place to mess with them might first be some awesome old locations near the Maginot Line. To start with just a few, and they can be owned by the French town nearby, so no linking needs to be done to other towns. Some other places with interesting countryside could get a farmhouse added. Start small. Ideally the objects could be reused from those in game, and at most clones with a "capture" texture added.

The first goal would be simplicity, and what was easiest to add, then add a few, in the middle of the map where they will get beat up. It'll be clear pretty quickly if they are fun.

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I want to take it a step further.

CPs and villages everywhere. Literally every 50-500m, and every 10-100m in towns. Small towns could have 30-50 CPs. Bigger towns such as Brux, Liege, Lux, Antwerp could have 1000s of CPs. No FBs, No FRUs. Just a slow slugfest east and west. Tanks and ATGs could fit in very well with specific rules. You would never be far from action. In a best case scenario you could spawn a tank and keep suppressing CP after CP and roll map east or west by miles without dying. That's what it was about in reality wasn't it? Front lines.

Edited by pulfer

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5 hours ago, pulfer said:

I want to take it a step further.

CPs and villages everywhere. Literally every 50-500m, and every 10-100m in towns. Small towns could have 30-50 CPs. Bigger towns such as Brux, Liege, Lux, Antwerp could have 1000s of CPs. No FBs, No FRUs. Just a slow slugfest east and west. Tanks and ATGs could fit in very well with specific rules. You would never be far from action. In a best case scenario you could spawn a tank and keep suppressing CP after CP and roll map east or west by miles without dying. That's what it was about in reality wasn't it? Front lines.

I'm for capture points all over, but not spawns as they stand now (large central list with depots/MSPs pulling from that huge list). If the map was covered with CPs that were also spawn points, I would want smaller, discrete units added (or not) to each CP. So if the HC decided to put a squad in every CP along some front, with armor in every 5th CP to the rear in some area, then no troops at all in the CPs for km along the flanks, the enemy could luck out and soft cap around them. A front is just a boundary, how strong any forces are along it would be a choice at the meta game level (the "map").

Every CP would ideally not be some huge garrison pouring out of a farmhouse.

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You guys ever think WHY the Rats 1.0 did what they did?  Hmmm?

 

EVERY single object you are talking about has to be defined, set in a database for location and capture state then apply whatever limits happen when an enemy controls X objects and what coding has to happen to make your front line and avoid patchwork mixed territory.

 

CRS whether 1.0 or 2.0 has to look at all that vast amount of definition, placement and upkeep and ask themselves what the play value is of using limited resources to do that.

 

I'm not seeing the payoff of 30000 new rural objects (and I suspect I'm way low) for the dubious value you are proposing relative to effort.

 

Even for WWIIOL 2.0, way not good conception.

 

Let's look at that map again.

 

52,000 square kilomters play area.  Ya I had the number low.  Even if we had one capture object and our tiles were 1km x 1km, that's 52,000 objects.  With 800x800m tiles, that works out to something in the 70,000 object range.

 

FIND ANOTHER WAY.

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Really, only Pulfer suggested anything of that sort.  A bit of a red herring, as I don't see anything that was probably mean to convey adding 70,000 or 50,000 or even 10,000 new objects.

Tater's suggestions tie in perhaps with my 'daisy chained' advocacy, where the spawns are strung out along the road between towns.  I had also suggested, like Tater is with his ideas, on picking an area of the map to try it out on.  That's one way to find out if it has value.

Anyway, I think this idea is good.  It perhaps is an extension of what I myself had proposed, focusing more on the nature of the spawn buildings themselves rather than their layout, which was my focus. 

I think you really couldn't have them 'all over.'  You need to have them in a line, as it were, to funnel folks towards the action.  On that view, if you say there is on average 10k between the towns, and you are placing 'rural cps' between the towns at 500m intervals, that is in point of fact only 20 objects--about 1-2 objects per tile with 800m tiles, and naturally, only where there are ROADS linking towns.

If you picked 6-8 adjoining towns where a lot of good action happens at the beginning of the map which also aren't too far away from each other, you could try out both the daisy chain concept and the rural cps by adding MAYBE 30 objects.  I assume we'd also choose wisely, so we weren't picking towns that were 30k apart. 

The Namur region, or around Diest, makes sense to me.  Most importantly, TRYING IT (the daisy chain scheme, or something very like it) seems key.  We must scratch the twitch.

Edited by pfmosquito
clarification
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On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:15 PM, tater said:

It's been mentioned a few places, often with the idea of adding out of town CPs pretty much everywhere. General idea would be to make use of existing buildings that work in a rural setting, but cloning them, and adding a "capture" texture to them.

Other buildings can work that already have a capture texture: Two bunkers, the one building one, and the farm compound would both work for this with no changes at all (you'd have to be in the radio room to cap), but cloned versions could allow the entire footprint (including the yard parts) to work.

There is that other group of farm buildings (barns, etc) that would work as well. Open CPs, and even open spawning is fine sometimes (FMS get camped).

Two other buildings occur to me that could be used along the Maginot Line, or for some of the forts in the Low Countries: The real bunker looking bunker (like the one at Charlois Rail Center) would totally work as a sort of representation of a Maginot Line point. Not perfect by any stretch, but it could add some interest to those areas. There are minor fortifications all the way to the channel, and that real bunker looking bunker could totally work as an isolated strongpoint. It would need a spawn point inside, as well (that represents underground barracks, etc)., but the spawn lists don't have to be huge.

zDNOgQ5.png

 

The concrete pill boxes could be CPs as well (with a capture texture inside). Those don't work for a spawn point, perhaps there is a way to alter them slightly to allow one.

Here's an idea for the Maginot Line concept.

Take that Charlois Rail Center type bunker. That building has a sort of concrete porch, with an opening to the outside (tank traps in front), and then a door to the interior. That part also projects out as a side room. Close the porch off with a ramp (inside the porch) as a separate object. It is impossible for ei to get in, but inf inside can get out (like how you get out of inf FB). Add an interior spawn point to the bunker (platoon sized spawn list?), and make the whole interior the capture zone, not just the radio room. Now we have a CP that also contains a spawn, and it is 100% safe from ei coming in. How then is this a capture point? Because unlike the other bunkers, this one has a damage state. The damage state is entirely to the new ramp object, and as this is a Maginot type fortress, it might take a decent amount to blow (like as many as a FB takes?) On the other side of the bunker from the current door add a veh spawn, whichcould just be more camo netting (the building forms 2 sides of a rectangle there, so just add a post to hold it up). This is for truck/ATG spawning.

These structures would be placed with the door to the safe (France) side (in the image above, the "front" is to the right), and the firing holes pointed OUT, towards the border. You'd pick good places to put them where they command some ground, very specifically not where bushlines lead right to them, blocking fields of fire.

Note that without the porch covered, an epic para drop could land a guy who could clear it without ever blowing it.

I suppose the real question is "can a "town" only have 1 CP?" I think ideally these rural CPs would not in fact be linked to a town (or not in all cases), but could in fact BE the town. The trick there is that the game mechanics are contest-cap. If that is the case, and if adding new towns amid other towns is an issue (since the CPs around all other towns need to be changed to link some to these new, rural CPs), then these rural CPs have to be part of the extant towns. If that is the case, then they act just like Depots now, only with the new buildings suggested. This also suggests that they should get AI, and the EWS might need some tweaking. AI for the Maginot line type structures could look like this:

mgturret_1.jpg

and require HEAT to take out. Given that the Germans might take it, let the AI have a 360 degree field of fire (so 1 AI can defend for both sides owning it), but make the detection and firing range shorter (lack of visibility). Also, 360 doesn't mean it has to turn fast.

 

I like it.

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4 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I'm not seeing the payoff of 30000 new rural objects (and I suspect I'm way low) for the dubious value you are proposing relative to effort.

I didn't suggest 30,000 new objects. I said others have suggested CPs everywhere. I thought I had it in an edit I did, but I have had an issue where I swipe my mouse and it goes to the previous page, and I lose what I typed.

The edit I did (and lost) to the OP suggested that a few of these could be added to some towns in the center of the map for playtesting to determine how fun they would be. Basically, find a likely part of the map, and add a few of these to existing towns, likely along the Maginot Line terrain (partially because the terrain itself is also pretty interesting). A few of the bunkers, and maybe some farmhouse CPs, but in towns close enough that the play with them could be tested (vs a 1-off distant CP).

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