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delems

AB capture mechanic.

121 posts in this topic

I completely don't understand how come defender is allowed to spawn from adjacent towns when their AB is captured.

What real world operation is this abstracting?

The defender didn't resupply anything or drive MS in.  The supply just magically moves from backline towns to frontline?

There is no way to interdict it or destroy it, which is the case if you manually resupply or drive MS in.

(btw, attacker has no way of doing this - magically moving supply from backline town to their attacking town... but defender can?)

 

Worse, it basically makes attrition nearly impossible, so you beat a town to rifles, finally capture the AB, wala!  Defender has SMGs, LMGs, sappers etc spawning from every link CP now... magically mind you.

 

It just doesn't make any sense to me how the defender is allowed to move (with no effort like driving) supply from backline town to frontline.

Wouldn't it be far better to disallow defender link CPs from spawning when AB is captured?

They can resupply like normal (drive infantry in on truck) or they can bring MS in from FBs that appear.

 

Edited by delems

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I haven't been involved with any of this for a number of years. I can however shed some light since the emphasis (by you) seems to be on not understanding why it is. A long time ago the mindset that fell out of the many tweaks and changes, evolution of the game, the population that played it, and the developers as developers themselves, arrived at a point where the guiding principle seemed to point at (of all the available choices and there are many to pick from) developing a game world where the fight should be extended as long as possible. Not to make winning impossible, or winning the local fight your are in ... as someone will always prevail in the end ... but to make it less simple or easy to develop a fail free tactic that not only works almost all the time, but also so that it doesn't work easily.

Through this process the player base also developed a sense of "We can do this ! We can turn it around !! Come on let's get in there and push them back !!!" with respect to defenders, who are often only defending desperately as a result of lopsided numbers in favor of the attacker. This was more common than even numbers were ... most of the time. There was never an intention to make the attackers unable to win and in all honesty most of the time they would. It might be harder than it could have been if the weight of the mechanisms favored them instead of the defenders but like I said, it was felt this would be much worse for general gameplay and far less sustainable for the players experiencing that gameplay. The essence of almost all interaction of the development team with the player base almost always pointed at making the battles epic and hard to win, so that they would not be over quickly or easily. Given the unevenness of each sides population a lot of the time was a constant that it was hard to break out of, this only reinforced the ethic that epic, long term .. hard fought battles that were only won after almost complete exhaustion of those involved, on both sides ... was the thing most players would choose over an easier "figured out how to win without monumental effort" model.

Now, of course lessons were learned, feelings changed depending on your personal viewpoint and experiences ... and individual opinions (subjective) sometimes could hold sway over over more global or objective perspectives. There was and always will be a battle over these personal opinions and the passionately held beliefs attached to them. I can't speak for the current development crew or their agenda but it would appear that there is a constant that can be seen; in that the basic tenets of how game play mechanisms related to spawn and attack/defense are structured isn't vastly different to the path of evolution the game has taken since long ago.

So while I want to be absolutely certain you understand that I'm not saying it has to be this way, or that it is better this way, or that this way is the right way to do things ... perhaps the "I don't understand why it is" ...... is a little easier to understand.

Edited by DOC
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Since armored vehicles can only spawn from the AB, there need to be a backup spawn as soon as it is captured.

Maybe the best approach would be to make that rear FB take its supplies in the frontline garrison instead of the rear one. Not sure if this is do-able easily. 

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or why not maybe just capture the AB last so it doesn’t open up supply to adjoining towns midway through an attack? Seems pretty simplistic in strategy for town capture.

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We capped ab before all the depos in a cutoff town yesterday and supply was still being spawned at depos with no link to any adjacent towns as the town was already white flagged...probably doesnt happen too often obviously 

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Ok, here is one of those side design/culture issues that you have to be careful of monkeying with mechanics.

 

To put it simply, Axis relies on it's infantry, Allies on their tanks.

 

Axis doesn't care THAT much when ABs get taken, and Allies likely don't have to worry about backend panzers hitting flanks, only trucks driving in FMS.

Take Allies' AB, and the tanks are gone- while this is no guarantee of victory for the Axis, it's a big deflator if you don't have a good Allied inf team on.  And it takes time for any backtown tank to show up, Axis needs to finish quickly since likely they have been attacking without armor, or 1-2 finisher tanks OTW.

 

So this is largely an Axis problem, because those linking depots will bring all those MGs in to boost the defense while Axis attack is likely running short of them.  Allies tend to not take the AB until the end or near the end, although they certainly will camp heck out of the AB.

 

Maybe this is the appropriate use for 88s, out in the hinterlands of the rescue FBs killing anything that comes out of them, armor or truck.

 

Flipside is, if Axis can beat down those depots and finish the town, they get a full spawnlist in reward and the potential counterattacking towns are already down some MGs each.  And the Axis gets a nice depot boost for their defense, if not overrun by Allied tanks good chances for reversing the result.  Allies can win  attacks and defense if the Axis doesn't get their tank wrangling under control.

 

On a larger scale, when you take ABs in what sequence is terribly important depending on relative and total pop and the state of the other AO/DOs.  It's not a one size fits all doctrine, and the side that uses their pop the smartest and is more aggressive in attack and more tenacious in defense can and should get the win.

 

I look at this as a fundamental aspect of not having red vs. blue, and I'm not sure we should monkey with this one,  

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9 minutes ago, Jsilec said:

We capped ab before all the depos in a cutoff town yesterday and supply was still being spawned at depos with no link to any adjacent towns as the town was already white flagged...probably doesnt happen too often obviously 

If I understand the spawning rules correctly, you can still spawn town supply at depots without the AB, that's a major change that came with 1.36.  Then if you are linked, that supply can be spawned independently.  I think Delems is arguing for town supply only in the event of ABs taken.

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What was before was you capped the ab and the bde got kicked. No bde no way to create or continue missions as the supply was tied to the bde that got booted.

Garrisons are there until you fully own, so now taking away the ab does not suddenly remove supply the garrison had stored in owned depots.

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2 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

What was before was you capped the ab and the bde got kicked. No bde no way to create or continue missions as the supply was tied to the bde that got booted.

Garrisons are there until you fully own, so now taking away the ab does not suddenly remove supply the garrison had stored in owned depots.

Ok wasnt sure how garrison supply would work in cutoff town with an ab bounce but thanks for clearing things up it does make sense...i have noticed axis prioritize ab caps during an ao while allies are definitely waiting till the depos are all capped before ab bounce for the exact reason kilemall just posted...axis can get away with it but not all the time as i have seen even overpop they can get swarmed by mgs with spawn delay and the DREADED “enter world” bug which just adds another 8 seconds to spawn delay on almost every fing mission...this enter world bug needs to get sorted and its definitely tied to spawn delay

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The enter world bug is ticketed, it's a pain for sure

 

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1 hour ago, OLDZEKE said:

The enter world bug is ticketed, it's a pain for sure

 

This on top but just under unregistered foot steps please thx 6yearzz. 

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1 hour ago, OLDZEKE said:

What was before was you capped the ab and the bde got kicked. No bde no way to create or continue missions as the supply was tied to the bde that got booted.

Garrisons are there until you fully own, so now taking away the ab does not suddenly remove supply the garrison had stored in owned depots.

It's important to note that it's different from the original AB only spawn, or depot spawn cut when the AB linked to the depot was taken, then eventually we got linking town/linking depot spawning.

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2 hours ago, matamor said:

This on top but just under unregistered foot steps please thx 6yearzz. 

I create tickets, I attempt to recreate the issue in  repeatable steps for a coder. The priority is dependant on the coder that can fix it vrs what is already on their plate. 

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Thanks for clarification doc.

I understand when we had flags only, we needed to be able to spawn from link towns as there is no more supply in town.

And, that we want fights to go on.  But, they have to end, attrition of the defenders town should be that ending - not magically bringing supply in from every backline town to ensure a fight continues.

 

Garrison supply is always in town, even when AB lost; hence no need for link CP spawning - it is also entirely unfair to the attacking side who has no way to "Link" their rear towns for free extra supply.

 

Nice troll randa, no, I like fights to end and progress normally - just like JWBS taking all the effort out of an hours long attack, same thing now happens with AB capture and suddenly 100s of free SMG, LMGs, sappers etc.  Attrition should be a thing.  And to the contrary, I'm envisioning a more even pop battle, in which case the attacker doesn't stand a chance once all the extra supply is opened up from the rear.

 

PS  I've noticed numerous comments regarding uneven pop.  That is the real issue and we all know it.  Fix it finally please; lock the in game world to 3 to 2 odds for over pop as a start; though, I think 5 to 4 be better.  You can be in game chatting, and can spawn in when a defender dies.  Also, can remove SD this way and lower capture times with a more stable pop balance.  And don't give me no "you'll ruin squad play"....... when the game isn't here because of extreme pop and not fun battles, all the squads in the world won't matter..........

 

Edited by delems

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9 minutes ago, delems said:

PS  I've noticed numerous comments regarding uneven pop.  That is the real issue and we all know it.  Fix it finally please; lock the in game world to 3 to 2 odds for over pop as a start; though, I think 5 to 4 be better.

My understanding is that a substantial % of gamers play for the "psychological income" of being on the dominant side...which in practice means the overpop side...so they can reliably participate in battle and campaign wins. 

So, forcing close-to-even pop would hit CRS's business viability hard.

 

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1 hour ago, jwilly said:

My understanding is that a substantial % of gamers play for the "psychological income" of being on the dominant side...which in practice means the overpop side...so they can reliably participate in battle and campaign wins. 

So, forcing close-to-even pop would hit CRS's business viability hard.

 

EWH

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6 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Ok, here is one of those side design/culture issues that you have to be careful of monkeying with mechanics.

 

To put it simply, Axis relies on it's infantry, Allies on their tanks.

 

Axis doesn't care THAT much when ABs get taken, and Allies likely don't have to worry about backend panzers hitting flanks, only trucks driving in FMS.

This is completely untrue from what I have seen. Axis are far more likely to panic over an AB down and all rush to retake it but hopefully the allies learned something from my constantly stating 'AB last attack or def' 

Since 1.36 the dynamic of capture changed. The garrison supply is still available in depots when your ab is lost but additionally your FBs come up AND spawnables have supply from flag links also making them now super spawns with 2 lists of inf to draw from meaning you can (and we have done many times) completely lib a town and bounce the AO if the attack doesn't tie down the depots first. It is very reminiscent of 'dont cap the city' flag  from the days of fallback - don't cap the ab until you have all enemy link depots is a mantra, learn it, love it.

 

I am not a fan that it works this way since garrisons and would sooner see garrison supply is held in limbo not usable until AB regained but it is the mechanic we currently have so I'll use it every opportunity and encourage otehrs to but yes I'd rather see the garrison unusable if the AB is enemy held. Spawnables and FBs is enough of a boost to a def imo.

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*** I am not a fan that it works this way since garrisons and would sooner see garrison supply is held in limbo not usable until AB regained

This still allows all the backline FRESH supply to warp instantly in town, very JWBS :(

Shouldn't backline spawns be disabled and allow the garrison flag to keep spawning at the remaining CPs?
This is what allows attrition to take place.

btw, it is also far more real life like - the units in the town will keep fighting even if their command area overrun.  It is not real life like to have infantry warp across 10km instantly, with completely fresh supply to suddenly join the battle.

 

Edited by delems
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Most towns it is coming from an FB like your own attack is coming from an FB. It’s not instant supply as it is throttled like all other depot supply is. Nothing wrong with reinforcements arriving when a towns AB has been captured just like a Fallback. I think @ZEBBEEE has been asking about disabling spawnable depots all together for an intermission.. Wish it was something we could turn off with a setting rather than it being hard coded because I know it’s something that would have to get reverted quickly when the complaints come flying in.

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It may be during your period Cat if the Allies are getting more tanks to town during attacks, but for the most part it's usually meh when I'm playing, often enough to consider doing the AB last AO bounce at times.

 

Nonetheless, I do think it's true that Axis sees the AB as a prime target worth risking the rescue FMS/spawnable flush just to cut off the Matties and later Shermans.  The advent of the Tiger does boost the Axis AB target value to cut off spawning.

 

It would all play much more differently if we had more people overall, often during a Dr. Fallback operation there would be what I called victory teams already posted to the linking rescue FBs, they would be blown and the linking depots cuts so the town could fallback and recover/get free spawnlist in relative peace.

 

Nowadays with current population you risk a fast retake if most of your experienced inf are out at a bunch of FBs.

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*** Nothing wrong with reinforcements arriving when a towns AB has been captured

Well, I disagree.

The defender did no work to get this free supply - they lose AB and all of a sudden, every town adjacent supply is free to use in defense.

It's instant JWBS of supply from different towns, and has no relation to actual real world mechanics.

 

If you want new supply to your DO, do what attackers have to do, drive a MS in, resupply a unit, or move a flag in (though can't move flag once AB gone).

 

It makes no sense defenders can use all the supply from adjacent towns (with no work mind you), while attackers can't.

 

Edited by delems
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*** been asking about disabling spawnable depots all together

You mean from adjacent towns?

I can still spawn to a CP in my own town with garrison or flag?

Hmmm, might not be a bad idea.

 

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44 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Nothing wrong with reinforcements arriving when a towns AB has been captured

Well, I disagree.

The defender did no work to get this free supply - they lose AB and all of a sudden, every town adjacent supply is free to use in defense.

It's instant JWBS of supply from different towns, and has no relation to actual real world mechanics.

 

If you want new supply to your DO, do what attackers have to do, drive a MS in, resupply a unit, or move a flag in (though can't move flag once AB gone).

 

It makes no sense defenders can use all the supply from adjacent towns (with no work mind you), while attackers can't.

 

We are just going to have to disagree then.. The defender already owns the territory, so they shouldn’t have to do additional work, the attacker trying to take the territory should have to do the work. 

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5 hours ago, delems said:

*** I am not a fan that it works this way since garrisons and would sooner see garrison supply is held in limbo not usable until AB regained

This still allows all the backline FRESH supply to warp instantly in town, very JWBS :(

Shouldn't backline spawns be disabled and allow the garrison flag to keep spawning at the remaining CPs?
This is what allows attrition to take place.

btw, it is also far more real life like - the units in the town will keep fighting even if their command area overrun.  It is not real life like to have infantry warp across 10km instantly, with completely fresh supply to suddenly join the battle.

 

On the flip side of that, in 2-3 AB's towns which have been captured, libbing one AB should result in supply immediately to that AB if your going to disable back line town supply.  Trying to lib 2-3 ab's while severely underpop is almost impossible as it is. What your suggesting is going to result in even faster rolls of towns in tz3 early TZ1. 

Granted you did address the population balance problem in one of your posts, but CRS seems to not want to address the issue by any other means than playing with SD and Cap timers. 

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