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FYI, we have narrowed down the issue pretty good and now have it fully replicated on the test servers.. expect to hear about campaign status from tman.. We will be opening up the server for everyone to play on now..

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The Germans did not need to put a lot of troops on shore to overrun the UK -- the BEF was destroyed, there were few tanks and artillery available.  All the Germans needed was a toe hold.   Get 5 or 6 divisions across and it would have been over very quickly.

If the Germans had control of the air, they had control of the English Channel.  No RN ship would last long there.   Land based aircraft trump warships.    Sorry, but Britain was beat in 1940 and only the RAF saved them.  If the RAF had broken, Britain would have been lost.   What saved the RAF and Britain was the foolish change of tactics by the Germans, switching from pounding RAF airfields to bombing British cities, allowing the RAF to recover.  Another foolish decision by Hitler that cost him a victory.

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Just a heads up in the NEWS announcement the 28th is the correct day for campaign start not the 27th as said in that announcement. 

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18 minutes ago, Zeppelin said:

Bunch of kooks

I can make it into a train thread if you prefer.

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28 minutes ago, harsin said:

Just a heads up in the NEWS announcement the 28th is the correct day for campaign start not the 27th as said in that announcement. 

Fixed. My bad, and thank you. S! 

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1 hour ago, blakeh said:

The Germans did not need to put a lot of troops on shore to overrun the UK -- the BEF was destroyed, there were few tanks and artillery available.  All the Germans needed was a toe hold.   Get 5 or 6 divisions across and it would have been over very quickly.

If the Germans had control of the air, they had control of the English Channel.  No RN ship would last long there.   Land based aircraft trump warships.    Sorry, but Britain was beat in 1940 and only the RAF saved them.  If the RAF had broken, Britain would have been lost.   What saved the RAF and Britain was the foolish change of tactics by the Germans, switching from pounding RAF airfields to bombing British cities, allowing the RAF to recover.  Another foolish decision by Hitler that cost him a victory.

A few other mistakes, missing the significance of the radar sites, and not putting the KM all on subs and not surface fleet raiders of dubious results.

 

On the other hand, Germany was not in shape to invade successfully.  The delivery options were mostly barges, readily sunk by small boats and destroyers even in an air superiority environment, and using paras and an airhead to get much more then a division across and supplied was sheer fantasy, and doubtful even that.  The Dutch portion of the blitzkrieg had been wildly successful, but at a cost of Ju-52s.  They had 800 Ju-52s going into the Blitzkrieg and by the end of June 1940 only about 200 flyable.   Of course a lot of those would be repairable, but still we are talking probably only 400 possible. 

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=the-airforce-4

Could be the Dutch saved the UK from invasion.

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10 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I can make it into a train thread if you prefer.

Image result for WW2 train gifsRelated image

Edited by sorella

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great News about the Server. looking forward to getting back in game. 

 

 

now just to wade into the debate that has been raging on this thread.

I believe a successful German invasion of Britain would have been impossible in 1940.  Amphibious operations are the single most difficult military operation that can be undertaken and usually require large amounts of planning time was not on German side.   Specialised landing equipment  was needed of which the Germans had very little.   one thing that never get mentioned is the geography of the South Coast of the UK.  Some of the landing sites were that the Germans picked were such obvious targets than they had serious defences built around them dating from 1802 when Napoleon looking attempting to invade.  The Martello towers would have posed a serious problem for German infantry. Then you would have in some areas to over come the royal Military Canal built again to keep out Napoleon which had a mix of modern and old defences on it.  For Example the beach at Romney is a shingle beach with no cover for miles and its very difficult to walk on now.  I can't image how difficult it would be walk on with all you military equipment no armour support because a tank won't go anywhere on the beach  and some Tommy shooting at you. 

 

this is even before we factor in the Royal Navy and the havoc they would cause. 

 

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Always nice to see wannabe-couch potato-"I watch History Channel!!" historians fling bits and pieces of propaganda-turned "fact" around...

"Sea Lion" was a cover-up within a "cover-up"

The German government never intended to invade the UK - certainly not in 1940/1941 - "Sea Lion" was a cover for "Aufmarsch Ost" - the planned (as well as pre-emptive) invasion of the USSR while at the same time making the Russians think something named so blatantly obvious ie. "Aufmarsch Ost" can't be real. The orders for "Aufmarsch Ost" go back to Aug 1940 emanating "von höchster Stelle" ie "top level".

If anyone did save the UK in 1940 it was the knowledge gathered by german intelligence through various channels, primarily the Forschungsamt as well as more obvious means the USSR had long since employed ( 20000+ BT tanks, only good for territories w a developed infrastructure ie Roads..hmm, where does the USSR border on territory w a developed infrastructure? Oh, right, Western Europe.... - More than a million paratroopers trained? Where / How do you employ paratroopers? For defense?..No, wait...! - Dismantling of the Stalin Line, a formidable line of defense including the Pripjet Marshes? Fortifications work both ways, not only do they slow down the attackers, they also hinder movement of own troops, in this case Russians moving West...) etcetc. pointing towards an invasion of Western Europe by the USSR sometime mid 1941.  Therefore there was simply no TIME to bother w the UK in 1940 - the Russian aspirations, since 1919, to invade Western Europe set the time table and the Wehrmacht beat them by a mere 2 weeks as is...

 

If Russia would have been defeated, that means pushed back beyond the Ural by 1943 at the latest, then the UK would have faced the threat of German Invasion depending on threat level considering it was quite correctly estimated by FA West that the US wouldnt be ready for war until then IF it decided to be a part of it no later than the latter half of 1941, what w its 400 outdated tanks and all...

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44 minutes ago, u2513 said:

Always nice to see wannabe-couch potato-"I watch History Channel!!" historians fling bits and pieces of propaganda-turned "fact" around...

"Sea Lion" was a cover-up within a "cover-up"

The German government never intended to invade the UK - certainly not in 1940/1941 - "Sea Lion" was a cover for "Aufmarsch Ost" - the planned (as well as pre-emptive) invasion of the USSR while at the same time making the Russians think something named so blatantly obvious ie. "Aufmarsch Ost" can't be real. The orders for "Aufmarsch Ost" go back to Aug 1940 emanating "von höchster Stelle" ie "top level".

If anyone did save the UK in 1940 it was the knowledge gathered by german intelligence through various channels, primarily the Forschungsamt as well as more obvious means the USSR had long since employed ( 20000+ BT tanks, only good for territories w a developed infrastructure ie Roads..hmm, where does the USSR border on territory w a developed infrastructure? Oh, right, Western Europe.... - More than a million paratroopers trained? Where / How do you employ paratroopers? For defense?..No, wait...! - Dismantling of the Stalin Line, a formidable line of defense including the Pripjet Marshes? Fortifications work both ways, not only do they slow down the attackers, they also hinder movement of own troops, in this case Russians moving West...) etcetc. pointing towards an invasion of Western Europe by the USSR sometime mid 1941.  Therefore there was simply no TIME to bother w the UK in 1940 - the Russian aspirations, since 1919, to invade Western Europe set the time table and the Wehrmacht beat them by a mere 2 weeks as is...

 

If Russia would have been defeated, that means pushed back beyond the Ural by 1943 at the latest, then the UK would have faced the threat of German Invasion depending on threat level considering it was quite correctly estimated by FA West that the US wouldnt be ready for war until then IF it decided to be a part of it no later than the latter half of 1941, what w its 400 outdated tanks and all...

One can tell you've been watching 'The Luftwaffe Channel' as Homer Simpson likes to call it. Please enlighten us with your German and Russian sources for the alleged plan of a Soviet invasion of Western Europe (beyond the 3 Baltic States in June '40) in mid 1941. 

Surely not Rezun's (aka Viktor Suvorov) discredited Icebreaker? Of course, broad plans and war games were in place for an eventual/potential Soviet war with Germany as outlined in both Solonin's and Bobylev's Russian language research and publications - but any military general staff would be remiss in not planning or gaming all possibilities. 

Either way, to judge by end results, any Soviet plan to invade Germany in '41 would have been the 'cover-up within the cover-up' as the Germans reacted, attacked and lost all of Europe within 3 and a half years and Stalin and Russia ended up with ALL of Eastern Europe and barely missed out on Greece and Iran. 

Kotlasskiy kraevedcheskiy musey (093).JPG

 

 

 

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That until recently German veterans of WW2 participating in the opening act of OP Barbarossa were still heavily emphasizing the captured trainloads of Maps of Western Europe down to the Atlantic coast, the German maps being more accurate than their own of all things, is indication enough. You discrediting Suvorov, as is custom to do w anyone whom hasnt gone through the usual correctional facilities w regards to established historical opinion, is on par w anyone suggesting that Columbus "discovered" America in 1500 and Trump twittering that theres no global warming because its freezing in Michingan right now. (ie. "idiotic")

Stalin didnt build 20k+ tanks that could only be used on roads (discard tracks and move on road wheels w speeds exceeding 55mph) because he was an idiot - to build those 20k tanks at a rate of approx 50-150 a month...takes time - on top of the other types produced (T-34/KV-1 et al ). Stalin also didnt put 4000 of his planes 3-8k from the border for "defensive purposes" so they could be whacked by the LW/Panzers/Infantry within 12-24h, thats quite idiotic and he wasnt an idiot - he was merely planning for something other than defense, like the Wehrmacht

The "loot"the Wehrmacht got a hold of right behind the lines (ie. Jun 22-25 1941) from segments of railway tracks not even covered by rust yet down to oil/gasoline pipelines ending a mere 3k behind the frontier is indication enough for Russias ambitions / Designs on Western europe if combined w the trainloads of maps captured as well as an indication when the Russian attack on WE would have commenced.

 

The fact that every European nation chipped in, once OP Barbarossa began, w contingents of their own, voluntarily, should be grounds for re-evaluating doubts as to the intentions of the USSR w its designs on Western Europe.

The Wehrmacht + allies went as far as they got and then some is the reason only "Eastern Europe" fell to Russia, which, BY THE WAY,  was nicely agreed upon in concert w the "Liberty / Freedom / Equality For All"- loving hypocrite Factions (USA + UK) one might add, at Yalta.

 

That Russia missed out on Greece is due to the fact that the Brits didn't interfere w Wehrmacht movements IN Greece, Dodecanese + the Balkans and even offered to ship supplies to the German garrisons for the sole purpose of not having to guard it against Russia themselves then.

Edited by u2513

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3 hours ago, u2513 said:

 

Stalin didnt build 20k+ tanks that could only be used on roads (discard tracks and move on road wheels w speeds exceeding 55mph) because he was an idiot - to build those 20k tanks at a rate of approx 50-150 a month...takes time - on top of the other types produced (T-34/KV-1 et al ). Stalin also didnt put 4000 of his planes 3-8k from the border for "defensive purposes" so they could be whacked by the LW/Panzers/Infantry within 12-24h, thats quite idiotic and he wasnt an idiot - he was merely planning for something other than defense, like the Wehrmacht

 

Lets assume Columbus did discover America - its a matter of perspective. What's not perspective is that Russia built at most 7500 BT tanks of all variants (depending on your source - most accept the Morozov Design Bureau Archives, which uses a lower number) - maybe 1500 more if you add in the early T-Series. Mid 41 they also had about 950 T-34s  and 500 KVs. Far less than the 20k you and Suvorov use speaking of the light or 'cavalry' BTs. 

But let's not quibble over tanks and maps. Trying to convince anyone with only apocryphal evidence or circumstantial  presumptions that Russia had planned and was ready in summer 1941 to actually invade Germany and that Barbarossa was a pre-emptive strike is not only folly, it is historically inconsequential. 

First the Germans lost their European war and then 45  years later, the Soviets lost theirs. It's over. Unless, as Gaspipe has said you actually believe Germany was trying to 'save' Europe which, in an odd way, they seem to be still trying to do.

  Related image

 

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