delems

EWS consistency.

16 posts in this topic

One problem with attacking, is it is so hard to coordinate because of varying EWS ranges.

You try and bring an ATG with you in truck, and suddenly EWS goes off at 1500m - but if I go in with truck and no ATG (no team there :(), I can get to 700m.

But, then I finally place a great MS 750m from town (no EWS yet), and a newb spawns at my MS and sets of EWS again........ blowing the attack setup.

 I try and bring armor with me to cover truck; and again, EWS goes off at 1500, making harder for truck.

 

Maybe we should just have one EWS range, and set it for 1k?

Then everything can stage for battle at 1100m out, and proceed in as a team?

 

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I like that, but it would let shrewd players camp the vehicle spawns with high powered ATGs in later tiers. 

I think it's worth a try. Can always change it back after we see what happens. 

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Make it farther out.

As far as I can tell since coming back the drill is:

place as much as possible without setting off EWS.

Move people in and start setting AO such that people are already in town before the enemy can defend---because in RL multiple brigades of troops on the front line routinely stayed fall-down drunk until after the enemy literally walked into where they were sleeping, then they drift awake 1 at a time to be serially killed.

Cap as much as possible minus any defense.

Defenders are either overwhelmed, or they zerg in after the fact and kick you out.

The entire paradigm is wrong.

All attack vs towns with units deployed (sorry, hate the Garrisons right now) should be alerted far enough before hand that they have the best possible defense.

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Yes, I considered making it 1500, but think we should try 1000 first.

 

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(Brainstorming)

Instead of an early warning system, The EWS could be seen as the report of actual threat and battle intensity close to town. So the ranges would then be decreased altogether and not increased. Manual contact reports (hence recon squads) would instead be in charge of that « early » reporting, like we did before EWS, patrolling over enemy FBs.

This would help defenders better balance their forces and help f2p focus on higher density battes with less travels (both for attackers and defenders, consequently). This could also ease maneuvers for attackers with group-based surprise assaults which is what squads will look for.


Not everyone wants defenders setup in the fields or sniping from depots before attackers managed to setup their ZOC. 
Maybe we should consider that frontline towns are more like no-man’s lands and that actual forces are deployed in backline towns. Our gameplay would better fit that concept, altough I would personally also like some brutal attackers vs defenders combats. But that could be achieved by other means 

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Not more inputs? It was an interesting discussion, very easy to change from a developers’ time point of view.

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It depends so much on the goals and assumptions of what the larger scale gameplay is accomplishing.

I was in an attack the other night with a bridge town, where we attacks one side, and rolled armor to the other. Was crazy capping/guarding a CP on the W side as like 6 tanks rolled past to cross the bridge (was a huge allied pop there). That was a typical WW2OL attack, but at max extent/violence due to local pop (and likely pop imbalance). They never knew what hit them. There was some brief, fierce fighting, but the nature of spawning in town resulted in the Allies occupying the town, THEN defense.

I think the AOs and EWS don;t give nearly enough time for defense for towns with BDEs. I already think the Garrisons are too large, but you want brainstorming?

1. Cut Garrison size. Rear areas should be rear areas. Alternately, has 2 tiers of Garrisons, 1 more front line, one vastly smaller (rear areas)---like total spawn list a sum of Depot spawn lists +1 some (lower tier) tanks in the AB.

2. Have EWS vary with BDEs. Garrison would have a short EWS, 1 BDE longer, and so forth. EWS scales to the troops who can patrol, be on picket duty, etc. EWS isn't magic, it's manpower.

So maybe:

 Only Garrison forces = 700m

Each BDE adds 500m to that.

 

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Hmm, until we implement front lines, I think it should be 1500 now.

Once we have frontline, then prolly 1000.

Pretty sure we can easily test the range on FMS?   Limit it to no further than origin to target distance.

Then no MS behind towns anymore.

 

Edited by delems

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52 minutes ago, delems said:

Hmm, until we implement front lines, I think it should be 1500 now.

Once we have frontline, then prolly 1000.

Pretty sure we can easily test the range on FMS?   Limit it to no further than origin to target distance.

Then no MS behind towns anymore.

 

I'm still for on-sides rules, I was just thinking of alternate tests to do that seem easy. Dunno if tied to BDE is easy.

Think of that attack I mentioned. I have no idea what the Germans had in that town supply wise---and in WW2OL it literally never matters in the case of the attack that happened. They could have had as much supply as the map allows in the one town, and it would have rolled anyway (which gives lie to the very notion of "supply" and the game at the level of "the Map.").

Assume the town had a BDE in it, that would bump the range to 1200. If you think it should be 1500, then maybe the Garrison range is 750m, and each BDE adds 750 to that. The goal here is that a town with a lot of troops in it should have more time to set up a defense---precisely because in RL more of those troops would be emplaced in the field, or at the very least doing patrols, etc. As a guy who dates back to hex board and miniatures games, I think of the "map" level game as that sort of wargame, with the actual battles as the tactical level. Anything that abstracts the operational game to improve it is a good thing.

So back to my attack example from the other day. If the town had a BDE in it, our attack was absurdly easy, and it should not have been. If the town was a rear area? That blitzkrieg felt just right. Some short, intense fighting, tanks pouring it at full speed, town liberated. As it was for an engagement against nominally equal forces? It felt like cheating in many ways.

My paradigm would allow the blitz style attacks on towns without BDEs, and/or rear areas. To go along with that, resupply would need to be slower, as would the speed to move BDEs. You'd then make a breakthrough and have to decide to push ahead through the soft rear area forces, but at the risk of outrunning supply and having untenable gains. Alternately, advance more slowly, moving fresh units forward.

If coding 2 levels of Garrisons is a problem, make 2 levels of BDEs, instead. Drop Garrisons to rear area levels (much smaller spawn lists), then have BDEs, and some smaller units to place as holding forces (say about the size of a Company?)

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On 11/7/2019 at 1:46 AM, tater said:

Make it farther out.

As far as I can tell since coming back the drill is:

place as much as possible without setting off EWS.

Move people in and start setting AO such that people are already in town before the enemy can defend---because in RL multiple brigades of troops on the front line routinely stayed fall-down drunk until after the enemy literally walked into where they were sleeping, then they drift awake 1 at a time to be serially killed.

Cap as much as possible minus any defense.

Defenders are either overwhelmed, or they zerg in after the fact and kick you out.

The entire paradigm is wrong.

All attack vs towns with units deployed (sorry, hate the Garrisons right now) should be alerted far enough before hand that they have the best possible defense.

From what I see almost no one defends until after the spawnable has been lost - then the defenders start to show up.  If 3 or 4 vets turn up when EWS is first activated, chances are the AO is killed stone dead.

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*** So the ranges would then be decreased altogether and not increased.

That would exasperate the problem of ei in your AB before even seeing EWS ?
 

Far to easy to race in to a town, cut engine right at 700m and glide 300m, set a silent, completely undetectable MS 400m from town.

I'd set all EWS for 1500, as 1000 might be a bit close as mozi says to camp ABs.  Or maybe try 1k, but just seems 700m to close, can barely get to a town and out of CPs before eMS is set.

 

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1 hour ago, delems said:

*** So the ranges would then be decreased altogether and not increased.

That would exasperate the problem of ei in your AB before even seeing EWS ?
 

Far to easy to race in to a town, cut engine right at 700m and glide 300m, set a silent, completely undetectable MS 400m from town.

I'd set all EWS for 1500, as 1000 might be a bit close as mozi says to camp ABs.  Or maybe try 1k, but just seems 700m to close, can barely get to a town and out of CPs before eMS is set.

 

Delems is will bee way to easy to race in to town and the AB can be lost VERY fast

Agree EWS 1500 is more realistic 

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It used to be 1500 - everyone complained that it was to far.... y'all need to make up your minds.

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*** It used to be 1500 - everyone complained that it was to far

Wasn't it 2500m?

So try 1000m then maybe?

 

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1 hour ago, delems said:

*** So the ranges would then be decreased altogether and not increased.

That would exasperate the problem of ei in your AB before even seeing EWS ?
 

Far to easy to race in to a town, cut engine right at 700m and glide 300m, set a silent, completely undetectable MS 400m from town.

I'd set all EWS for 1500, as 1000 might be a bit close as mozi says to camp ABs.  Or maybe try 1k, but just seems 700m to close, can barely get to a town and out of CPs before eMS is set.

With the current Allied OP (not huge most of the time when I'm on based on the SD), I was in a few attacks where we rolled the Germans... and while I participated, it was just stupid. We were basically all over town before there was any response.

The idea of maneuver warfare and breakthroughs is a good one, but the game is not really built for this, particularly with the giant "garrison" paradigm. I generally think the defenders should always have their best shot---via fighting the attack at the very least just outside of town. For the ability to break through---instead of relying on the sneaky attacks we always see now where defenders spawn often into a town that is already controlled by the enemy, even if the enemy has not "captured" the CPs, etc because the tables aren't hot---what we need are MUCH SMALLER Garrison forces. Give the small force it's best shot at defense, but it runs out of supply quickly. This makes the "Map" level more important (where you put Brigades), and allows both kinds of play---large "fixed piece" battles, and the sort of Blitzkrieg that people complain that I am trying to kill via having realistic defenses.

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*** Give the small force it's best shot at defense, but it runs out of supply quickly. This makes the "Map" level more important

I disagree with this, because the side with HC then matters too much.

Garrisons at least allow the game to function with no HC on, though not perfectly of course.

I say movable flags should be smaller than garrisons a bit; and give squads their own moveable flag.

This takes HC out of the victory roll some and puts squads more in the loop.

 

 

*** I generally think the defenders should always have their best shot---via fighting the attack at the very least just outside of town. For the ability to break through---instead of relying on the sneaky attacks we always see now where defenders spawn often into a town that is already controlled by the enemy, even if the enemy has not "captured" the CPs, etc because the tables aren't hot

Totally agree with this, give the defender some chance to get out - ever try to tow an 88 out with EWS already up and MSs 400m away?

 

Edited by delems

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