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World War II Online is a Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter based in Western Europe between 1939 and 1943. Through land, sea, and air combat using a ultra-realistic game engine, combined with a strategic layer, in the largest game world ever created - We offer the best WWII simulation experience around.

delems

EWS consistency.

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delems

Just all the gear has different EWS ranges, trucks being 700m is too short imo.

Doesn't give defense any time to prepare.

At least try 1k.

 

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delems

Can't even spawn into AB anymore when EWS comes up - ei already there.

Need on sides MS or EWS moved out to at least 1k.

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jwilly

Could this game be made to work if the defenders were allowed to be entirely in place and ready before the first attacker came into engagement range?

Because that's how the actual WWII mostly worked.

Defenders defended the point of value, and attackers attacked the defenders in order to get to the point of value. 

Not "attackers" arrived first and set up defenses, then the "defenders" arrived and were shot up by the "attacker" defenders.

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drkmouse
6 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Could this game be made to work if the defenders were allowed to be entirely in place and ready before the first attacker came into engagement range?

Because that's how the actual WWII mostly worked.

Defenders defended the point of value, and attackers attacked the defenders in order to get to the point of value. 

Not "attackers" arrived first and set up defenses, then the "defenders" arrived and were shot up by the "attacker" defenders.

atm the  towns are total CAMPED even  before  def can  move to that  town...

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tater

Preach it, brothers!

It's bass ackwards.

I always thought the entire point of an AO was to let the defenders set up a defense. Multiple AOs was/is a function of so many players it exceeds visible limits, etc, right? That should literally be the cutoff for a new AO, players exceeding visible limits or similar.

Spitballing.

Make FBs so that you can own either FB. Town A — FB A — FB B — Town B.

The default is that you own the FB closest to your town.

EWS is longer, and it has a no-mans land area. Both sides experience that area. They get a warning if they get too close to the target town for attackers, or the attacking FB for the defenders. It starts counting down, and they move back towards their spawn, or they get MIAed/RES/whatever based on the range.

So every Town owns the nearest FB to it. The BDE (Garrisons still much smaller, and stay in TOWN, no Garrison spawning out of town facilities at all) is in town. If you want to attack, FB B from Town A, you blow FB B (or it has a capture mechanic?). FBs need to have BDEs moved to them. When you set an AO the BDEs move up to the closest FB they have, but it takes some time for that to happen. While moving, no FMS, etc. FMS are given a max range from spawn, so you can't easily attack direct from town most places. That time is the setup time for defense. Attackers will have no spawnable, no FMS until the BDE moves up to the new FB (FB B to attack Town B in this example). Setting off EWS (moved farther out than now) could slow the BDE movement. We don;t want the attack to start until after the BDE moves to the FB. That FB is indestructible during this period.

The BDE in the FB is NOT in Town A any more. It is at FB B. Town A defense is the Garrison. If Town A has 2 BDEs, you can move both up, or leave one in town.

Moving the BDE up is the AO. Doing that starts the AO process, defenders see, and they know the BDE is moving. Since this keeps the BDE out of action for a while, it's not a throw away move, so there is a good chance there will actually be an attack compared to now. Attackers can set up FMS by heading into no-mans land, then backing up a little. Ditto defense for DFMS.

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N8

I would make truck ews 1k, atg 1100, at least in my opinion that should be what the EWS range would be 

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tater
1 hour ago, n8 said:

I would make truck ews 1k, atg 1100, at least in my opinion that should be what the EWS range would be 

The problem that was mentioned a few posts above—that that attacker in ww2ol is really the defender remains, though.

WW2OL D-Day:

Do Germans build Fortress Europe and the Allies invade while the Germans murder them on the beaches? Nope.

Allies invade, then Germans appear. In town. Then they try to push them back to the beaches.

Every single "attack" is this way. WW2OL has always pushed the "sneaky" attack over actual attack.

If the game was fixed so that the defenders were in place before an attack, then if attacks need ways to improve them, that gets fixed as well. Ability to move up FMS closer? Heavy FMS for large ATG? Reduced Garrison supply and list?

That last allows BDEs to be driven around, and you take lightly defended places first, of course the attacker has to be careful to leave BDEs along the flanks, or the attack bulge gets nipped off.

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ZEBBEEE
4 hours ago, tater said:

The problem that was mentioned a few posts above—that that attacker in ww2ol is really the defender remains, though.

WW2OL D-Day:

Do Germans build Fortress Europe and the Allies invade while the Germans murder them on the beaches? Nope.

Allies invade, then Germans appear. In town. Then they try to push them back to the beaches.

Every single "attack" is this way. WW2OL has always pushed the "sneaky" attack over actual attack.

IRL doctrines suggest that Armies keep their reserve forces in the rear, sending them over to places where the main offensive forces is confirmed. So it will always start with a smaller defensive garrison, then grow to a larger battle. 

Furthermore the element of surprise is critical. If defenders are ready to fire, failure is expected. You are expecting a ww1 trench war gameplay like Verdun, instead?

In wwiiol, Attackers can no longer capture non-frontline towns and this was to simulate the pre-deployed defensive forces that couldn't be pushed through. 

Attackers will always decide where the battle will come. This is a game not a real army of paid soldiers. The more features were added to make events predictible, the less squads were playing and growing.

Still, it is aknowledged that sustained team vs team battles should happen more often, but not necessarily the way you described it. Attackers must become defenders before further pushing (using terrain and gameplay features), think about a turn by turn game. There is no other way to handle such a large map imho

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warspite

The trouble is if you give the defenders too much warning then they get too far out into the fields and can even camp the attackers at their FB.

 

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Jsilec

Please dont change ews we do not want ww1 online with everyone turtled up

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blakeh
On 12/11/2019 at 1:25 AM, tater said:

It would just mean different styles of attack. It seems like the most common successful attack looks pretty similar, while failed attacks fail in different ways.

In my limited experience (in the last X months, plus the years before) a very common form of attack that succeeds (both sides) is one where the defense happens after the fact, and the town is effectively won before there are any enemy players around at all. The camp quickly becomes the AB. At least attackign FMS are not always in the exact same place... that AB camp is happening if the attack is successful, regardless.

Rushing to EWS? People rush to EWS right now. I do. Lesse, I'm spawned in someplace. I either see chat about enemy troops, or I look at map, and happen to notice EWS at a nearby town. I might despawn right away if it's boring where I am. I might run to RTB to not waste a unit. I might finish capping, or wait til someone can take over guarding... maybe it's a couple minutes. Then I have to either find a mission, or make one. Then I have to pick a unit and spawn in. Now I have to stand around and listen to hear a truck. Check CPs, rebuild AI... by the time I could actually start setting up any sort of defense (as if I could do it alone, or even with 2-3 like-minded people), it's too late. heck, I was likely shot the first time I went someplace to try and get a good look around. Also, the attack can come from any and all directions, even what should be our rear. That's the typical "defense" in my experience. I remember being chastised by someone in chat for not guarding the spawnable---I was the first in town, and I heard an opel CLOSE and ran to try and kill it before it set, and didn't feel like staring at a wall, alone, as "defense." If players need to sit around for hours doing nothing in anticipation of a possible attack just so they can have decent positions---the game is fatally broken.

Yes typically I respond to EWS right away and am the first in town most times--- responding to an incoming opel before it sets is more important than  the spawn at that point.   Stopping to build defences is the worse thing you can do.

The current EWS method gives the over pop side a huge advantage- they can send multiple trucks to set up spawns close to town without setting off EWS.  EWS range needs to be moved out more- 1000-1500. And the distance is to the town marker, not the town, so some spawns are way to close.  I have seen some spawns 100 or so meters from a cp.

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tater
4 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

Furthermore the element of surprise is critical. If defenders are ready to fire, failure is expected. You are expecting a ww1 trench war gameplay like Verdun, instead?

No. Sorry.

This surprise? Elaborate, please.

So you are saying that in WW2, units on the front stayed asleep until the enemy was among them, THEN started fighting?

Or are you saying that even though there was a force of soldiers in Town A, since the soldiers in next door Town B were fighting, the ones in A will only fight to the extent the ones in B stop fighting? Almost as if the fact that both towns have a Battalion in them is meaningless, and there is strangely a finite number of men split between town A and town B?

Are you suggesting surprise in ww2ol was like Arnhem? Attackers take something, then the defenders come—almost like the defenders are not, you know, on the front, but behind the lines, and the enemy isn't attacking from the usual "that way! —>" and is instead falling from the sky?

Or is surprise like Normandy vs Calais for D-Day? They think you're coming for the one, so there are zero defenses at the other? Say you actually think the ww2ol defense model matches this for some bizarre reason. What happens if in counterfactual ww2ol the attackers actually did attack Calais, instead? In ww2ol the 2 battles are identical. The attackers show up first, and piling up BDEs in one place vs another doesn't matter—all that matters is how many players show up, and when. BDEs and "supply" are a fiction in most battles (unless they turn into an attrition battle).

The default case in ww2ol should be the assumption that if there are BDEs in a town, there are players in/around that town, and the game should work that way, even if we know no one will stick around where there is nothing to do.

Failure IS expected unless you outnumber the enemy on attack.

Things people seem not to want from target towns:

1. Actual defenders.

2. Any sense of "the enemy is in that direction" for the defenders.

Anyone in favor of the style of play in #s 1 and 2 existing is a "turtle" apparently. Odd, since the "attackers" in ww2ol get to always know where the enemy is—in front of them—regardless of what direction they are coming from.

 

Three scenarios that should both have identical outcomes if ww2ol is supposed to work at the "map" level at all.

1. Town has 2 BDEs piled in it. Defenders spawn in as now, reactively.

2. Town has 2 BDEs in it, even a handful of players are spread out from town a little in units capable of attacking trucks effectively before any enemies appear.

3. Same as 2, but some players are bizarrely willing to waste their time playing in the same defensive positions to the REAR of town.

We all know the second and third are vastly different than the first. FMS will get set farther in case 2, and closer to the FB. A small chance they can really end-around so an army can magically appear in the rear. In case 3 that chance of the end around is gone, cause the truck gets shredded back there, too.

 

13 minutes ago, blakeh said:

Yes typically I respond to EWS right away and am the first in town most times--- responding to an incoming opel before it sets is more important than  the spawn at that point.   Stopping to build defences is the worse thing you can do.

The current EWS method gives the over pop side a huge advantage- they can send multiple trucks to set up spawns close to town without setting off EWS.  EWS range needs to be moved out more- 1000-1500. And the distance is to the town marker, not the town, so some spawns are way to close.  I have seen some spawns 100 or so meters from a cp.

Exactly. I've had people show up in a town where I was first to show up and complain I didn't guard the spawnable. I was alone, I show up, I hear an opel. The thing is hurtling around offroad at max speed, all I can do is jog in the right direction and hope I can kill it. If I wait for them to come to the CP—they might be going for some other CP as a warp. How can I know, they are only to the East of town, but they can attack from the West.

Defenses are not a thing. I don't even want time to "build defenses." I want DEFENDERS. I'm fine with a line of foxholes where the enemy is —> "that way" vaguely vs 360 degrees. The number one benefit of knowing there will be an attack so a few people can "set up defense?" It will be that there will probably be some ACs out such that trucks cannot circle around since there has never been a proper limitation of FMS placement. Enough warning that the chance of a truck surviving to set an FMS the wrong direction from town is ZERO.

 

 

 

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OHM

We have not change the EWS settings and nothing is planned to do so in the near future S!

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ZEBBEEE

Was wondering: What if towns with brigades had a larger EWS radius (1500m for all) than towns with Garrisons (500m for all)?

Not sure this is doable but what if it was?

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tater
1 hour ago, ZEBBEEE said:

Was wondering: What if towns with brigades had a larger EWS radius (1500m for all) than towns with Garrisons (500m for all)?

Not sure this is doable but what if it was?

This is interesting, as EWS is an abstraction for what would be the normal disposition of forces around a unit deployed into a town (or near one). Picket lines, patrols, etc. Maybe larger the more BDEs there are frankly.

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fidd
On 11/11/2019 at 7:07 PM, delems said:

Hmm, until we implement front lines, I think it should be 1500 now.

Once we have frontline, then prolly 1000.

Pretty sure we can easily test the range on FMS?   Limit it to no further than origin to target distance.

Then no MS behind towns anymore.

 

Agree completely. A lot of this is driven by FB mechanics. If an area is completely quiet, the FB's for both sides should exist equidistant and at the same time. Blowing one sides FB then retires it, and advances the other towards town. When it's blown at the new location, the attackers FB placement becomes the same as where it would be under the current mechanics. In the event of FB's moving in this way, both sides have the movement reported. I would suggest that only infantry be spawnable from FB's or AB's until the first movement occurs. It might be worthwhile giving HC's or ML's the ability to give-up a camped FB to preserve their spawnlist. In the event that neither side has troops spawned from their FB's, they automatically start to revert to their neutral positions?

I also really like anything that precludes MSP's behind the lines.

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Kilemall

My guess is you're screwed for EWS consistency with less trigger range and town layouts.  IIRC the whole thing is hanging off of those cannons, including relative placement of buildings AND EWS range, so a weird placement of the cannons may mean drastically different behaviors from the expected, including outlying buildings.

Not noticeable with big 3km EWS, moreso with less range to trigger.

If the terrain model works again IIRC, then it's not so easy to move those cannon around as the building placement is set relative to those 'anchor points'.  So, major redo if the paradigm works as I understand it.

I could be very wrong and am certainly up for Rats to clarify/correct.

 

Frankly I don't see the big whizz in having 'consistency' other then it should trigger at some point or not have a lot of special units not trigger.  Each town should have it's own unique character and flaws and some towns you can sneak up on mirror tactical surprise achieved throughout military history on just some overlooked terrain not properly defended/patrolled.

Edited by Kilemall

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tater
33 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Each town should have it's own unique character and flaws and some towns you can sneak up on mirror tactical surprise achieved throughout military history on just some overlooked terrain not properly defended/patrolled.

The problem is that every terrain in ww2ol is not properly defended/patrolled.

Attackers usually attack from directions that virtually never happened in RL (all directions, all the time).

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stankyus

good god..

The Truck range USED to be 1400m or so..  A butt load  Axis players got on the Forums and said, its impossible to get my 88 up with EWS triggering so soon, cannot get my FMS in close enough..  Both where reduced, Truck 800m & Tank and ATG ews warning was reduced to about 1400m.. Which was fine when the Tiger was the only tank that could sit at 1500m and decimate the valley, and the 88s could set up. However here is the thing, during normal balance and high pop ews at 700m (actually I think its 800m) does not make or break the town. PPL respond to ews the second it goes off.  

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fidd
On 6/29/2020 at 9:03 PM, tater said:

This is interesting, as EWS is an abstraction for what would be the normal disposition of forces around a unit deployed into a town (or near one). Picket lines, patrols, etc. Maybe larger the more BDEs there are frankly.

Given the speed of a truck barreling downhill, it essentially allows FMS's to be silently inserted before the defenders even start to spawn in, let alone look for the FMS's. I think the mechanics of FB's are long overdue for review, if not complete redesign.

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drkmouse
2 hours ago, stankyus said:

good god..

The Truck range USED to be 1400m or so..  A butt load  Axis players got on the Forums and said, its impossible to get my 88 up with EWS triggering so soon, cannot get my FMS in close enough..  Both where reduced, Truck 800m & Tank and ATG ews warning was reduced to about 1400m.. Which was fine when the Tiger was the only tank that could sit at 1500m and decimate the valley, and the 88s could set up. However here is the thing, during normal balance and high pop ews at 700m (actually I think its 800m) does not make or break the town. PPL respond to ews the second it goes off.  

so full of it here, allies were also begging the ews be  mad ein closer... was a gaem ask not  one group....

becuase  sherms   stu  dak are soo fast and teh beddy  laffy etc can roll so far,   by the teim anyeon can spawn  itno t town 1/2 the time ther ARE   ei in the ab allready

do not know the fix, but allies are doing the rush then ao if  the aixs some hwo gets def   move to new town

the good fights for both sides are far and  few as  if there is one, the ao goes away 90% of teh time ( less it is a tonw that  is  needed to move on)

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delems

EWS use to be 2500m - that was far and players wanted it moved in.

700m is obviously to close, needs to go to 1k at least.

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fidd

I still think that tinkering with the range is missing an chance to improve things. As Tater and I have recently laid out, having FB's self-centre when no-one is spawned to a neutral position, requiring combat and time to move the FB to the final position where an AO can be placed, allows more time for defenders to establish. If AO's are also limited, then it also helps concentrate players in a smaller area, as the number of towns able to be AO'd will tend to contract as the server population drops. Finally, the length of time between last fb being taken, and the AO being placed can also be varied, perhaps by population balance over the last half hour. Finally, there could be an HC command to voluntarily give-up an FB, trading space for attrition.

So now there's at least 4 tweakable variables that can be used to assist in giving a common play experience, in terms of attacking a properly defended town, for everyone, regardless of when they play, and in spite of population inbalances.

Just tinkering with the range won't do it given players ability to cross the front by spawning in at new Bde, and thence to be able to insert FMS's before enough defenders spawn in to see where they go.

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Kilemall

Giving defenders more time to set up?  Do you want a game that goes that much more to TZ3?

You can't do that without going to a minimalist spawnlist to allow fast attrition to settle the matter.

The problem ain't the FBs or the EWS distance.  It's the nodal spawn castle/mini FB siege camp paradigm.

Capturing road nodes and logistical facilities should be important, but as adjuncts to affecting combat power to units in the field.

See, we went the exact wrong way, went to town supply and killed brigades, when what we should have done was expanded the brigades, locked them into battle contact while allowing spawning countryside and having the nodal logistics to influence resupply/RES tickets, not throttle battle to an urban castle fight and all the stupid gimmickery we've had to do since.

Edited by Kilemall

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jwilly

I understand CRS's defense of how the game works now. Better a working system and some revenue, than uncertainty.

But the way the game works now is a really wonky effort at simulation of real war. "Attackers" are defenders, often no "defenders" are present until the "attackers" have taken up defensive positions to kill "defenders" as they spawn, the number of brigades present on a side is unrelated to how much fighting force they can field at a given time, the most important mission goals for brigades and whole armies can be accomplished by one man, "attacks" almost always can come from 360 degrees, camouflage works backwards, the apparent design goal for battles is a 1:1 force ratio, infantry cannot see out of bushes without exposing their heads because their eyes are located in their stomachs, vegetation is always in focus to block close vision even though real viewers have two eyelines and no difficulty seeing out of such vegetation, artillery is irrelevant, there are no local and secondary roads, wheeled vehicles can travel across plowed fields and wild terrain alike at near maximum road speed, soft terrain slows tracked vehicles but not running infantry with heavy combat payloads, there is no fear and there are no positive or negative morale effects from combat actions...the list goes on.

Seems like fixing some of that fundamental stuff would be on the priority list.

Edited by jwilly
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