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delems

EWS consistency.

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tater
1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

Capturing road nodes and logistical facilities should be important, but as adjuncts to affecting combat power to units in the field.

Wonder if "mini towns" (from a capture standpoint) could be made at crossroads, or just along important roads?

It can have a farmhouse or something. Spawnable, also the bunker. If there needs to be a CP as well (so CP opens bunker to cap the "town" of a single farm), then a barn is a "CP" for that purpose (cap texture, still open like RR station in city). Anyway, it's NOT the town next to it in either direction. It's a new town of a single farm.

Town A — FARM — Town B

Try it a few places. First in places with no FBs. In places with FBs, the FBs might have to change or go away.

Play is same as towns. Set AO, take farm. Since taking farm is likely easy—they'd have a "garrision" of maybe a platoon sized force (2 squads of inf, and a hvy squad with an ATG or 2), you'd want to take it then attack fairly soon (have to move supply up). The idea is to telegraph attacks slightly better.

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fidd
2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Giving defenders more time to set up?  Do you want a game that goes that much more to TZ3?

You can't do that without going to a minimalist spawnlist to allow fast attrition to settle the matter.

The problem ain't the FBs or the EWS distance.  It's the nodal spawn castle/mini FB siege camp paradigm.

Capturing road nodes and logistical facilities should be important, but as adjuncts to affecting combat power to units in the field.

See, we went the exact wrong way, went to town supply and killed brigades, when what we should have done was expanded the brigades, locked them into battle contact while allowing spawning countryside and having the nodal logistics to influence resupply/RES tickets, not throttle battle to an urban castle fight and all the stupid gimmickery we've had to do since.

I'm not sure what you mean by "game that goes that much more to TZ3". I actually agree with many of the points you make above. What I was attempting to achieve was a situation where it was no longer possible for an AO to be placed without a prolonged period of contact and notification of such contact, before an AO could be placed and MSP's set - enough time for a limited number of players on one side to establish some semblence of a defense; rather than the sudden establishment of a pre-camp. This has always been a problem for the game, despite many measures to deal with it. 

By no means do I think this is the "ultimate" solution, but (when "quiet") self-centering FB's with 2-3 possible positions might be one mechanic worth further discussion. I also fully understand reluctance in tinkering this area, and the reason for it.

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tater
41 minutes ago, fidd said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "game that goes that much more to TZ3".

I think I get his point.

The point is that TZ3 is not just one side OP, it's very low pop, period. One side could have a small, but normalist number of players for an attack—10-20 players—and the other side might have 2 players.

 

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delems

700m is way to short for trucks; need to try 1k.

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tater
19 hours ago, delems said:

700m is way to short for trucks; need to try 1k.

If trucks did not drive at crazy highway speed off road—either absolutely, or because there was terrain they had to avoid (like small colliders under bushes, ditches, whole areas showing plowed fields that drop speed, etc)—would the min EWS range change do you think? (ie: they could be allowed closer if they were not so bloody fast).

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jwilly
1 hour ago, tater said:

they could be allowed closer if they were not so bloody fast

Realism: tracked vehicles should be fastest offroad.

Then AWD wheeled vehicles.

Then rear-wheel-drive wheeled vehicles.

Realistically, the latter couldn't be described as "fast" at all. They'd get stuck in the first plowed field or damp ground they came to, and require unloading and towing out.

So:

The British are about to get the Universal Carrier, their tracked APC.

The Germans already have a tracked APC.

The French have an AWD truck.

Give the Americans some UCs or some Lafflies. Then everyone has a plausibly realistic offroad vehicle.

Then slow rear-wheel-drive trucks way down offroad. Like, half the speed of tracked vehicles. That's still generous.

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tater
1 hour ago, jwilly said:

Then slow rear-wheel-drive trucks way down offroad. Like, half the speed of tracked vehicles. That's still generous.

I agree with all that, but I was honestly dumping "realism" and thinking "arbitrary gameplay mechanics."

Realism would be 1:1 terrain, and all the side road systems. We don't have that.

That said, trucks with humans in the back don't hurtle around offroad, and military convoys probably didn't drive super fast on back roads in a war zone (possibly in enemy territory) anyway. FMS placement is an arbitrary mechanic. Truck noise volume is arbitrary as well to signal where they are (since defenders out in the field are simply not a thing).

Slowing trucks off road would be meant as a way to control a number of gameplay issues.

1. De facto on-sides encouraged without arbitrary FMS placement limitations (trucks can drive to the rear, but they are slow, and vulnerable, so it's less likely.

2. EWS can be adjusted without concern for trucks setting it off, then coasting to a FMS set so quickly the ei are in town before the defenders.

3. Infantry as defenders (notably rifles) would have a greater chance to have some sort of ZOC.

Still won't solve the idiocy of trucks in the large cities whack-a-mole at truck speed is just awful. Constant sounds of trucks in a town you are supposed to control, with multiple BDEs in it, and the enemy can joyride through town. Yuck.

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drkmouse

need more back roads  first as there realy was

and they  i agree 100% on slowing down off road :)

Edited by drkmouse

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stankyus
On 7/6/2020 at 1:19 PM, drkmouse said:

so full of it here, allies were also begging the ews be  mad ein closer... was a gaem ask not  one group....

becuase  sherms   stu  dak are soo fast and teh beddy  laffy etc can roll so far,   by the teim anyeon can spawn  itno t town 1/2 the time ther ARE   ei in the ab allready

do not know the fix, but allies are doing the rush then ao if  the aixs some hwo gets def   move to new town

the good fights for both sides are far and  few as  if there is one, the ao goes away 90% of teh time ( less it is a tonw that  is  needed to move on)

The history of the EWS range changes has been tinkered with. The first time EWS that IIRC was because all you had to do was spawn in at most FBs and the EWS would trigger. This reduction was not a side request but by both sides. It was reduced to something like 1.8-2k for tanks and atgs. Then several AXIS players wanted it brought down to 1400m so they could set the 88 up. Moz and Delemns where a part of that discussion particularly pertaining to the 88. I was against it because the ramifications of the Axis (this was before the historic timeline thing we got going on) was that soon as EWS set off, our ABs would be 88 camped.  I also brought up the issue that IF we did the historic timeline then ABs would be camped by StugGs and Tigers with no answer to them.  Very few allies agreed with the EWS change in the thread, most saw the ramifications of such a short range on Tanks and ATGs. I am sorry you do not remember that discussion, but you not remembering does not make me full of it, it just means you dont remember it. MB next time you should start with "I dont recall that, but this is what I remember".  Also, reducing the EWS does not neccessarily mean CRS reduced it so the Axis could preset 88s. They could have done it with completely other reasons.  My point is that EWS was reduced, it was in conjunction with the Axis request to do so.  Now that EWS is causing an issue - during a time of Axis lowpop and allied guns that can kill Tigers at 1500m mind you.. EWS is now important again. 

Let me tell you some truth about recent game events.. The other day when we AO'd Aachen, things got stale for us and we AO'd Bastogne. EWS was off before the AO... we had 4 guys at first for about 10 minutes. We capped the spawn and 3 cps before a single Axis spawned... Loonie. So yes, by that time we had tanks outside the AB, and infantry in the bunker and the baracks cut. We had a 4SD.  Our next attack, ews goes off and by the time our tanks got to 1k outside town we where getting cut down by shrecks in the field and even YOU in a DFMS with your pak36. We dropped that AO and went after Erkelenze. 5 FMSs go up, and do not last but mb 20 minutes. Our tanks where getting shredded after that because all our trucks where getting straffed or mg'd by EI 1.5k outside town. Both attacks we got our butts handed to us in very short order. Do you know how often we move to a new AO and start capping unmolested till a few CPS go down? Well over half in my experience as of the past few weeks.  And yes our tanks do sitt 1500m outside EWS till our FMSs are up so it does not take that long to have them withing 1k of town. For some reason, we are doing a bit of coordinating this map.

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stankyus
1 hour ago, tater said:

 

Still won't solve the idiocy of trucks in the large cities whack-a-mole at truck speed is just awful. Constant sounds of trucks in a town you are supposed to control, with multiple BDEs in it, and the enemy can joyride through town. Yuck.

Something only 5x the amount of highpop players could reduce.  Even now during high pop in a defended town we set up DFMSs all over town it does nothing more than being able to recap a cp easier.

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tater
3 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

need more back roads  first as there realy was

and they  i agree 100% on slowing down off road :)

No, I agree there should be back roads, but that seems super unlikely to actually happen. I think a reasonable compromise would be:

1. If it's easy, have some of the new terrain tiles massively slow trucks. There was that pic of a plowed field. Have that bring trucks to a walk.

2. Maybe the bush lines could be altered in such a way that steering around them was pretty much required—truck speed is a driving skill thing.

3. Slower offroad speed, but not a draconian change (along with the above).

 

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tater
4 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Something only 5x the amount of highpop players could reduce.  Even now during high pop in a defended town we set up DFMSs all over town it does nothing more than being able to recap a cp easier.

And even that is a PITA, since we have little idea where we will spawn. Try FMS, oops, it's in the AB. Try another, it's outside town, etc.

Whack a mole could be mitigated by making CPs revert unless the attacker enters the CP every few minutes. So leave a guard, or leave a guard for a group of close CPs.

 

Edited by tater

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Kilemall
3 hours ago, jwilly said:

Realism: tracked vehicles should be fastest offroad.

Then AWD wheeled vehicles.

Then rear-wheel-drive wheeled vehicles.

Realistically, the latter couldn't be described as "fast" at all. They'd get stuck in the first plowed field or damp ground they came to, and require unloading and towing out.

So:

The British are about to get the Universal Carrier, their tracked APC.

The Germans already have a tracked APC.

The French have an AWD truck.

Give the Americans some UCs or some Lafflies. Then everyone has a plausibly realistic offroad vehicle.

Then slow rear-wheel-drive trucks way down offroad. Like, half the speed of tracked vehicles. That's still generous.

 

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mud.

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stankyus

Thanks kilemall, my eys just went crosseyed to that wall of text and my head hurts.

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Kilemall
1 minute ago, stankyus said:

Thanks kilemall, my eys just went crosseyed to that wall of text and my head hurts.

I'm not sure if you got the message about my preferred mechanic for variable offroad speed for wheeled vehicles, should I post it again?

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delems

Saddened kile, seems you do nothing but aggravate issues, not solve them.

Both your sarcastic questions and 'i know best' answers; I know you can do better, please do.

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warspite

To me kilemall is one of the few on this forum that talk with unbiased and thoroughly thought out ideas, I agree with almost everything he says because he has the whole games interest in mind, not just one side or one part.

You delems are too focused on yourself and the Axis side I'm afraid.

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Kilemall
6 hours ago, delems said:

Saddened kile, seems you do nothing but aggravate issues, not solve them.

Both your sarcastic questions and 'i know best' answers; I know you can do better, please do.

Hmm, I can no doubt come across as arrogant, but at a certain point when it's past 'opinion' and 'taste' and 'entertainment' and into 'no really this has consequences you are ignoring for your preferred game', I get frustrated and also I will use the elements of persuasion in the forum at my disposal to influence the discussion.

I don't know why you chose this thread and my mud thing to jump on, I haven't even really opined much on the EWS thing beyond the nodal spawn castle and not wanting to throw the game too far to the defense. 

I suspect this is seeing my name and more about the bridge AO thing, we can beat on each other there.

If it is the EWS distance comment, well we can debate that here, and you probably won't like what I have to say on that.

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