tr6al

What happens when you shoot someone

44 posts in this topic

I am not a programmer but have a little understanding on what happens in game. I was actually a network manager at a university so have some understanding about networks , servers etc.

 

This is just a little info for people who would like to understand a bit more about what happens when you shout someone technically.

When you see an enemy and fire a shot at him , your client sends a message to that client , through the server and then receives a message back , through the server telling your client whether you did anything .

It is not your client that decides if he dies but his . You might have hit a not fatal part , or missed completely .

If he dies he tells you . (obviously though the client to server to client path)

This normally works great if the timeing is perfect . If there is any form of delay between the clients then you will a lag and possibly no hit registering.

You shoot , he waits a while as the communications move around the system and then he dies .(or not)

These numbers are just vague guesses as everone has different ping times.

 Now if you add up the travel time , and your ping is say 50 one way while so is his , you get them added . 50ms  + whatever time the server takes , lets say 10ms , then time to the other client of 50 + another 10 -15 for processing then 50 back to server , + 10 processing and then 50 back to you . Only 1/2 that time is important as you now know you are dead and would indicate by falling down twitching .But it still takes aprox 120ms for that to happen .

 Now if the other client was lagging or generally not communicating in the time period where it is getting told it is shot , it doesn't know , therefore no dropping dead or even getting wounded .

If the shooter gets this sort of thing happeing constantly , he is most likely the issue (connections , memory , software etc ) or if is occasional then it is most likely the one getting shot.

The other thing that effects what happens is "predictor code" where the server predicts where you should be if you followed the path you are on. With the time delay between information getting passed around , you just might not be seeing the exact location of the enemy depending on both your timing.

ms=millisecond=1/1000 of a second

Hope that helps

Tr6al

 

Edited by tr6al

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Actually, projectile hit and damage(joules with angular data) are calculated on your computer side, sent to server wich sends result package to other client. Otherwise any damage and hit data would be just guesswork with latency included to mix. If you cant see hit, or object to hit, no damage will be delivered.

 

Also your client sends to server all movement and action data with occasional coordinates of your location, wich then sends 'em forward to ones in vinicity of your location and within visual limit formula.

Although with current population last time i checked hitting it is very unlikely during tz3 or 1.

 

Hopefully that helped.

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will moving to 64 bit help in anyway, the processing of and distribution of packets in a timely way?

S!

 

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10 hours ago, tatonka said:

what if you see the hit and inf doesn't go down?

Options are if its YOUR shot:

-you hit in way it didn't kill it, to part of target that has no damage model or just wounded target.

-packet including data was lost on way from you to server due connection/your clients hickup or server overflow

-result package was lost or ignored by target client due hickup. 

-you found stat padder who pulled plug on first instance of danger

-you found rat/GM who forgot to disable rat powers after some issue he handled... Been on receiving end on such issue couple times and seen it happen too to friendly alongside

 

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3 hours ago, CanArt said:

-you found rat/GM who forgot to disable rat powers after some issue he handled... Been on receiving end on such issue couple times and seen it happen too to friendly alongside

Just for clarification, there is no “Rat/GM” power to be invincible. There are a very few internally that have access to test clients that have an ability to do some very crazy stuff in the game world, but they are prohibited in the live game unless the game manager allows it for debugging an issue we can not replicate on the test servers. 

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3 hours ago, CanArt said:

Options are if its YOUR shot:

-you hit in way it didn't kill it, to part of target that has no damage model or just wounded target.

-packet including data was lost on way from you to server due connection/your clients hickup or server overflow

-result package was lost or ignored by target client due hickup. 

-you found stat padder who pulled plug on first instance of danger

-you found rat/GM who forgot to disable rat powers after some issue he handled... Been on receiving end on such issue couple times and seen it happen too to friendly alongside

 

We do not use dev/rat powers on live.

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As SCKING said, GM/RAT superpowers as to invulnerability are not a live server thing. Dev servers we have tools to use to test with but live tools are very different and restricted vrs dev server. 

When you see a hit that does not take down the other guy immediately, he/she continues on for a bit on the same vector then likely that player has lost packet flow and is on the way to auto despawn.

You hit a player and see them fall dead but get a damage, most all of us have got hit hard enough to not be able to run, can't change range on weapon (scored dead) but still just enough "life" left to keep walking shooting. 

Tanks/atg/aa/planes, kill the driver that's a kill. Vehicle can still shoot.

Kill break main guns, kill, vehicle can still move and tank wise, secondary mg can still fire. Main gun broke awarded the kill so it's a "dead" tank stats wise.

Tanks, both tracks broken or engine dead is a kill award. Tank can still fire all guns but stats wise it's a dead tank.

There can only be 1 kill award against a player per sortie. So I kill the driver of a tank I get the kill, someone else blows that tank up they only get a damage.

 

We need better visual feedback as to damage.

We need a better scoring system where as you receive credit for disabling as well as total kill. Assist points or whatever.

Still loads of things that need be or would be neat to have. All require time, keeping this grand old game alive and the talented folks needed to get there.

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58 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

As SCKING said, GM/RAT superpowers as to invulnerability are not a live server thing. Dev servers we have tools to use to test with but live tools are very different and restricted vrs dev server. 

When you see a hit that does not take down the other guy immediately, he/she continues on for a bit on the same vector then likely that player has lost packet flow and is on the way to auto despawn.

You hit a player and see them fall dead but get a damage, most all of us have got hit hard enough to not be able to run, can't change range on weapon (scored dead) but still just enough "life" left to keep walking shooting. 

Tanks/atg/aa/planes, kill the driver that's a kill. Vehicle can still shoot.

Kill break main guns, kill, vehicle can still move and tank wise, secondary mg can still fire. Main gun broke awarded the kill so it's a "dead" tank stats wise.

Tanks, both tracks broken or engine dead is a kill award. Tank can still fire all guns but stats wise it's a dead tank.

There can only be 1 kill award against a player per sortie. So I kill the driver of a tank I get the kill, someone else blows that tank up they only get a damage.

 

We need better visual feedback as to damage.

We need a better scoring system where as you receive credit for disabling as well as total kill. Assist points or whatever.

Still loads of things that need be or would be neat to have. All require time, keeping this grand old game alive and the talented folks needed to get there.

In capping/defending depot upstairs, ei runs in, you empty nearly a full clip into him (blood everywhere) he keeps coming, (by this time your clip is empty) shoots you, kills you, then he finally falls over dead. 

This happens WAY to often. 

What is happening in this scenario, and why can't it be fixed? 

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1 hour ago, nc0gnet0 said:

In capping/defending depot upstairs, ei runs in, you empty nearly a full clip into him (blood everywhere) he keeps coming, (by this time your clip is empty) shoots you, kills you, then he finally falls over dead. 

This happens WAY to often. 

What is happening in this scenario, and why can't it be fixed? 

Yeah, this always happens, and it's a large part of the reason that CQB in ww2ol is so very, very awful.

I don't know if there is a likely solution---which is why I advocate for a capture system that doesn't require this worst-level ww2ol gameplay as the driving mechanic of the game.

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I've never been able to replicate that. 

I know this, when we can fix it, it will be fixed. 

Best guess as to what's happening? I'm not a network engineer so I can only guess. 

The game you play is on your machine. You get "state" updates that tell you this building is destroyed or the depot has been captured and then the game on your machine updates to that state. 

The player you shoot is rendered on your machine according to updates the player sends to the server and then is sent to you. When you shoot a player you are shooting where the player is rendered on your machine, the xyz co-ordinates you have for that player at that moment. It's not "I'm sending you fire data to xyz, did I hit you but rather I see you at xyz and I fired at you and hit you. You send the data as to where you hit the player so movement or positional lag are not a thing. 

Now, if I shoot a player I see the hit sprites and send that I hit you here, with this round, at this angle, with this velocity, I penitrated this far, If I hit armor then I made this much spall and it then tracks each piece of spall against each component that takes damage. If I fired a round that creates shrapnel then each piece of that is tracked and all penitration data is also sent to the person I shot.

Only guess I have as to seeing hits that do not register as to dropping/immediately killing the player is that I'm not getting the packets telling me who that player is. If I know who that player is then I know (my machine) that I sent the "I hit you" packet. The only other guess I can give is that that "I hit you" packet got lost going to the server. 

Either case would, best as I can guess, cause a no stat record of that instance. But best as I know lost packets would be the only likelihood.

Again, I'm not a network person. I take the bug reports as do the rest of QA and try to replicate the issue and then give dev the replication steps. 

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28 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I've never been able to replicate that. 

I know this, when we can fix it, it will be fixed. 

Best guess as to what's happening? I'm not a network engineer so I can only guess. 

The game you play is on your machine. You get "state" updates that tell you this building is destroyed or the depot has been captured and then the game on your machine updates to that state. 

The player you shoot is rendered on your machine according to updates the player sends to the server and then is sent to you. When you shoot a player you are shooting where the player is rendered on your machine, the xyz co-ordinates you have for that player at that moment. It's not "I'm sending you fire data to xyz, did I hit you but rather I see you at xyz and I fired at you and hit you. You send the data as to where you hit the player so movement or positional lag are not a thing. 

Now, if I shoot a player I see the hit sprites and send that I hit you here, with this round, at this angle, with this velocity, I penitrated this far, If I hit armor then I made this much spall and it then tracks each piece of spall against each component that takes damage. If I fired a round that creates shrapnel then each piece of that is tracked and all penitration data is also sent to the person I shot.

Only guess I have as to seeing hits that do not register as to dropping/immediately killing the player is that I'm not getting the packets telling me who that player is. If I know who that player is then I know (my machine) that I sent the "I hit you" packet. The only other guess I can give is that that "I hit you" packet got lost going to the server. 

Either case would, best as I can guess, cause a no stat record of that instance. But best as I know lost packets would be the only likelihood.

Again, I'm not a network person. I take the bug reports as do the rest of QA and try to replicate the issue and then give dev the replication steps. 

Oh come on, this happens ALL THE TIME.

I can post video clips if you like. 

 

Either case would, best as I can guess, cause a no stat record of that instance. But best as I know lost packets would be the only likelihood.

Err, sorry, but no. Most often the case results in both players dieing, when in fact only one player should have died. If often seems to happen most (for me) with players residing out of the country (aka lag). 
Honestly, this is one of the few games were sometimes it seems, lag/packet loss is an advantage. 

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Yeah, this happens a lot. Literally every time someone sends "traded" at a bunker or CP, that is what happened. Both players shooting instantaneously is a special case, and has to be incredibly rare, with the vast majority of such trades being someone shot a fraction of a second earlier, but both die anyway.

If it can't be fixed (probably can't), then change the game mechanics so we don;t have to guard a tiny room which makes these issues worse.

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I answered you as to the best of my knowledge. I can't play the game from your address so I can only relate as to how it plays from mine.

That said, in testing over the last few years I've tested using 3 machines, 2 pc and a MacBook, tested organic as well as through steam.

I've tested with induced packet loss as well as with induced ping up to 1000ms as reported by the game logs and ping bar as well as checking via cmd prompt to verify both ping and loss using the ping command. I shoot a player it records in the aar. 

Same ingame. Now admittedly while ingame playing I don't always check the aar so it's possible it's happened and I missed it.

Being you are one this seems to happen too I'll try to determine if you play at times convenient for me and if so I will shadow  you and observe to see what it looks like from my perspective.

 

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4 minutes ago, tater said:

Yeah, this happens a lot. Literally every time someone sends "traded" at a bunker or CP, that is what happened. Both players shooting instantaneously is a special case, and has to be incredibly rare, with the vast majority of such trades being someone shot a fraction of a second earlier, but both die anyway.

If it can't be fixed (probably can't), then change the game mechanics so we don;t have to guard a tiny room which makes these issues worse.

Yes there will be fractional lag at times, that's a part of online gaming. I watch my grandson play heros and generals and hear him complain about it as well as the games on xbox.

Die then seeing the other guy appear around the corner in death cam though is part of what the auto despawn is meant to help with. Squash the blatantly horrible laggy connections.

With all that's been said though we are still investigating connection issues and still working to refine the netcode so as to get smoother gameplay with the least amount of lag possible without cutting off a huge chunk of our player base. 

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1 hour ago, OLDZEKE said:

Yes there will be fractional lag at times, that's a part of online gaming. I watch my grandson play heros and generals and hear him complain about it as well as the games on xbox.

Die then seeing the other guy appear around the corner in death cam though is part of what the auto despawn is meant to help with. Squash the blatantly horrible laggy connections.

With all that's been said though we are still investigating connection issues and still working to refine the netcode so as to get smoother gameplay with the least amount of lag possible without cutting off a huge chunk of our player base. 

hence me saying it's likely not something that can be fixed---which I am willing to accept. Back in the old, old days of wargaming---miniatures, hex boards, etc---when you really wanted a sense of realism and fog of war, you'd play with 3 people. One as the ref. The ref would know the actual positions of units, and the players only got to know what they would have known. That was an analog solution to the problem of a 2 player game, and wanting fog of war. Here we have a digital game, and the issue is latency. If that cannot be reduced below some level, the work-around fix would be to try and not have as much combat where latency makes it feel awful.

That is CQB. The current game paradigm means that literally the only play that matters in game is within a capture facility. These are constrained areas where CQB is the very worst in the entire game. If we have to live with some lag (no worries, I can live with that), then mitigate the issue by changing the capture paradigm. Less clearing of small rooms via warp-lag kills, and more of a wider ZOC system.

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Changing the capture system is not going to be a light task. 

I don't know exactly all the intimate details but I do remember testing capture was changed from touching the table to being inside the building. Early on you could cap from on the roof of the building and that had to be adjusted which leads me to assume it involved editing the capture polly in the building model itself in creator.

If that's the case, and mixing in what little I know as to strat linkage in the terrain editor I think to change to a area type capture the flag pole deal would require new models (needs some sort of placeable terrain piece with the capture call/code/polly) plus changing existing models (removing the capture bit from flag buildings). Then that would need be recoded into the terrain editor (I assume) and if it cant just be a mater of trading the existing cap building for another terrain object or blank polly model then it would mean redoing every town, every capture point in the game.....

Not saying it can't be done, but I think it would likely take a good chunk of time dedicated to a artist, coder or coders and terrain folks doing nothing else but this task.

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Yeah, I got the impression it has to do with a texture on the floor. I don't imagine it's easy, but CQB is just so very, very awful, yet it is literally the only play style actually required to win the game. Over intermission I made a point of not entering any CPs (I ran through a few after spawning out of habit), and I had far more fun.

A simple fix? Change the CP model to "not a building." It becomes something almost entirely open space (I had proposed a small graveyard). Make it so that both sides have to clear it for capture to happen, and controlling it would require controlling it from nearby buildings/terrain. I don't care if tanks/trucks/ATGs could capture, honestly, in that paradigm.

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8 hours ago, OLDZEKE said:

I answered you as to the best of my knowledge. I can't play the game from your address so I can only relate as to how it plays from mine.

That said, in testing over the last few years I've tested using 3 machines, 2 pc and a MacBook, tested organic as well as through steam.

I've tested with induced packet loss as well as with induced ping up to 1000ms as reported by the game logs and ping bar as well as checking via cmd prompt to verify both ping and loss using the ping command. I shoot a player it records in the aar. 

Same ingame. Now admittedly while ingame playing I don't always check the aar so it's possible it's happened and I missed it.

Being you are one this seems to happen too I'll try to determine if you play at times convenient for me and if so I will shadow  you and observe to see what it looks like from my perspective.

 

First, lets dispel with the myth that this is only a fringe issue, something that happens rarely only to a few players. 

That.......is....not.....the...case.......at....all. 

It happens so often, to so many, it is almost unfathomable that it cannot be replicated. But, you need to understand this problem is magnified 100 fold in close combat situations. Your not going to notice it if your hiding in the bushes sniping ei 200 yds out. 

There are three different points that this could be happening:

1) My side

2) server side

3) opponent side

 

But, FWIW, it seems to happen most often to the same players (indicating to me a poor connection issue on their side). If it was on my side, or for that matter the server end, I would see this happening to a more varied player group. 

But then again, it could also be that only a small portion of the opposing sides player base is Cap/defend cap focused ( I know we have many that rarely engage).

The point that Tater brings up cannot be underestimated. This problem is paramount in importance because it effects game mechanics in the most critical of areas......Capture mechanics. Capture mechanics are such that close combat has to work correctly (they don't currently, far too often). 

Capture mechanics are the basis for which the whole game depends on.

Any thing that effects capture mechanics should, MUST, be given top priority. 

When close combat doesn't work, the game doesn't work. People like Tater get so sick of this happening over and over, they just stop capping. 

 

For instance, scenario one. I am playing Allied, we are currently Op. I am capping an important depot (could be on a AO or DO, does not matter). I have cap at 85%, axis player rushes in, I get the drop on him and unload a full clip of smg fire into him. I did not miss, there is blood all over the walls. Yet for 1/2 a second, he is immune to the fire, and shoots me (after being hit several times). I die. And then, and only then, does he die as a result of the damage that he took from my fire. So we effectively "traded". Even though I clearly should have been awarded the kill, and he should have never been able to shoot in the first place. But now, because I am on the OP side, I am incurred a SD penalty, and most likely a distance penalty as well. This allows him to spawn in quicker, get the the cap in question quicker and defend. Hell, I am probably also hit with an "enter" bug as well if I am spawning from a nearby depot (another serious issue that continues to be ignored that effects capture mechanics). In other words, his defense was successful because of poor game play mechanics and quick "fixes" such as SD that impact game play in ways that CRS never considers. 

Scenario two, Three players defending a bunker. Opposing player rushes is, all three defenders open fire, but the because of the kill lag, the bunker rusher manages to take out 2-3 of the defenders. 

 

"With all that's been said though we are still investigating connection issues and still working to refine the netcode so as to get smoother gameplay with the least amount of lag possible without cutting off a huge chunk of our player base "

 

Interpretation: We are allowing this to happen to accommodate players with poor connections. 

I get that, but a poor connection should not be rewarded. Maybe players that don't meet a strict connection minimum are not allowed into areas in which close combat occurs? 

Or change capture points so that close combat working correctly is not so critical (as Tater suggests) 

 

 

 

Edited by nc0gnet0
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4 hours ago, nc0gnet0 said:

People like Tater get so sick of this happening over and over, they just stop capping. 

LOL.

It is true that I get sick of capping and guarding. Intermission (no CPs!) was far, farmore fun than regular play last time---simply because I avoided CPs like the plague. I used rifles (M1 and MAS40) almost exlcusively, and picked ranges where that sort of play was more fun. Rushing CPs is roulette. Fill a tiny room with grenades? Gotta be safe now, right? LOL. I can smoke, then run in like a nut, and maybe shoot them before they can turn... everything about CP combat is awful.

I'd love to see even a handful of CPs changed to something novel, and OPEN, just to see what happens.

I drew a tiny cemetery. It;s a square the same dimensions as a CP (counting how far the flag sticks out sideways, it's close to square).

2umsNYT.jpg

The truck would be a static truck, maybe with a tailgate down to climb into it. The walls are waist high. Gravestones vary. The entire area is capture texture.

A cemetery in Ghent:

VisitReeks04-DT003985.jpg?itok=sF0izEeg

^^^ so there can be a fair amount of cover depending on how they are done. Wrecked state could be pretty interesting as well. The goal is someplace you have to actually control to capture.

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13 hours ago, nc0gnet0 said:

First, lets dispel with the myth that this is only a fringe issue, something that happens rarely only to a few players. 

That.......is....not.....the...case.......at....all. 

It happens so often, to so many, it is almost unfathomable that it cannot be replicated. But, you need to understand this problem is magnified 100 fold in close combat situations. Your not going to notice it if your hiding in the bushes sniping ei 200 yds out. 

The point that Tater brings up cannot be underestimated. This problem is paramount in importance because it effects game mechanics in the most critical of areas......Capture mechanics. Capture mechanics are such that close combat has to work correctly (they don't currently, far too often). 

 

Exactly, on multiple points. Rarely did I ever see a Rat/etc. guarding and fighting in the trenches of CPs. CHIMM showed up every now and then when he was Pathfinder because that's what we did as a squad. When people don't guard CPs and attack CPs on a regular basis and then attempt to argue that it's not an issue, I can't take their comments seriously. 

"I have no issues," says the person sitting in a bush looking around.  Come fight in the CPs and ABs. 

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I've did a lot of guarding. When I still had time to play and my eyes could stand hours in front of a monitor I guarded a lot. Back when we had the offset issue that came in with 1.35 I saw a lot of "got shot and only saw shooter in the death cam" as well as shot through walls, shot him and he didn't die etc. We found issues, coders fixed issues.

I've not seen this issue, I've used the buzzard to observe players that were reporting invisible killers and every time it was a player well hidden but with LoS to the reporter.

Clearly some are seeing a issue, we are trying to also find a way to experience that issue so we can replicate it for DEV so they know what to look for and or at.

I'm replying as straightforward and clearly as I know how. I try to answer questions to the best of my knowledge and abilities as I feel players need to at least know we are listening. 

But, when it get to the point my posts are ill received then I'm done.

 

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@OLDZEKE

I'm not talking about invisible shooters, I'm confident that 99.999999% of the time it's just someone I didn't see that kills me in those cases. What gets me to call "BS" in the chat is when I shoot someone 4 times as they come into the CP (blood splash on wall, etc), then they shoot me once, then we both die (confirmed by AAR). Happens all the time. My ping is around 50, FWIW (new, RT ping).

I don't think there's anything that can be done about it, it's physics (propagation time of data in this case), I think it's something we all just have to live with. Hence my suggestions about altering the capture paradigm so that this "worst WW2OL" gameplay is not also "the only WW2OL gameplay that is required."

Guarding is awful. We have this large game world, and the only thing required to win is the willingness to stare at a wall. One side could agree as a group to focus on CPs, and stay and guard with at least 1, ideally 2 people, and they'd roll the map---no other units needed except the trucks to set FMSes. It's so very awful, though.

I'd really like to see even a single CP someplace changed to some sort of open space with low cover as a test. Guarding it becomes overlooking it. Defenders in the open space can shoot in all directions.

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1 hour ago, OLDZEKE said:

I've did a lot of guarding. When I still had time to play and my eyes could stand hours in front of a monitor I guarded a lot. Back when we had the offset issue that came in with 1.35 I saw a lot of "got shot and only saw shooter in the death cam" as well as shot through walls, shot him and he didn't die etc. We found issues, coders fixed issues.

I've not seen this issue, I've used the buzzard to observe players that were reporting invisible killers and every time it was a player well hidden but with LoS to the reporter.

 

And this is also very true. Many do not consider the possible LoS available. I agree with you in that regard. 

I do disagree with tater, but that's personal preference: I greatly enjoyed guarding CPs.  I didn't find it awful at all. 

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The invisible shooters was a example. 

And I have played the game, if you check the stats wall of fame I'm on the 75k kill list on this account. I've played the game, ranked up several others, each with 5k or so kills. 

I've guarded, I've seen bad lag in the past but for me with 1.36 I've not seen it so bad it's not playable. That's my experience. 

As said I will try to observe some who regularly bug report this to see if I can see it same as y'all do.

I'm in the southern WV coal fields, I realy doubt my internet is that much better than the rest of the US so if I can get a idea of how to experience it 1st hand that'll give me info to pas to dev.

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