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delems

Flakvierling.

16 posts in this topic

As we now have the Flak 38 modeled (performance anyways, not sure about actual gun art), what about the Flakvierling model?

It was accepted into service in 1939 and would be a great addition for towable AA starting in tier 0.

 

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I'm very content with the FlaK 38 but delems is making a valid point, it's already 1/4th into the game. I'd love to see it but there might be other priorities at this moment. 

I enjoy playing AA, probably more than anything else in this game and the Flakvierling would be a great, yet natural successor to the FlaK 38 (1938). 

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Not only that, axis needs better AA, and it was in service in 1940.

Also, we can then model the Sd Kfz 7/1, which started production in march 1940.

So, both models should be in game starting tier 0.

 

Edited by delems
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Long-ago-proposed SPAA set:

British: CMP AWD 4x4 truck with triple Oerlikon

Germans: SdKfz 7/1 halftrack, with FlaK Vierling (quad 20mm FlaK 38)

French: Laffly S35TL AWD 6x6 truck with dual Hotchkiss naval-turntable-version CaMle 40 25mm

US: M16 halftrack with quad M2HB .50 caliber

CRS version 1 intended at one point to develop a similar set, but the British weapon instead would be a SP version of the Bofors 40mm.

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Before I want see see any triple or quad or a Flakvierling,  I would rather see a good dmg model for all ATG and AAA guns. 

Still way to often where you pepper these 2 units and they still set up and return fire , where in real these men would run for their lives. 

It's long over due that we get a good visual indicater that these units are destroyed and one can pay attention to other targets.

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5 hours ago, sajuk said:

We need italy Stuff!

I don't know of an Italian weapon system comparable in short term throw weight to the multibarrel small caliber autocannons listed above.

The Italians however commonly used an open top utility version of the AS37 AWD/all wheel steering light truck with a single 20mm autocannon and an MMG. Kind of a heavily armed super-jeep. I think that'd do a good job of meeting Italian needs for light AA, recon and light ground interdiction, and would be highly compatible with typical gameplay.

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Here's that Italian gun-truck:

HGe3hfDY9VDsXbe42Tu8QrabrJL8bHIyTzctUjpD

And the same chassis and movement parameters would provide the Italian APC:

7d2ab0e390f0482f83516d5f879362a5.jpg

and with lower gearing, the Italian supply truck:

AS37_cassonato.jpg

and the Italian medium gun tractor:

1fc447e1a8e93a04fffb1ee459c51525.jpg

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4 hours ago, jwilly said:

I don't know of an Italian weapon system comparable in short term throw weight to the multibarrel small caliber autocannons listed above.

That's an eligible and chronologically suitable weapon system.

Two prototypes were built of this SPAA system, on an M15/42 chassis with four 20mm Isotta Fraschini autocannons in a Wirbelwind-like plate turret for one unit, and a simpler rotating frame for the other. There was no production run because Italy was in dire straits militarily and economically by March 1943, when the prototypes were combat evaluated. One prototype was taken by the Germans, who used it for the remainder of the war.

M15CA-03.jpg

1943 is three years later, gamewise, than when Italy would need this weapon, plus the usual stance is that one-or-two-unit prototypes are not eligible. I think Italy would be better off with say twice as many of the AS37 gun-trucks as their SPAA solution.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160607033515/http://www.assocarri.it/Mezzi/Semovente_contraereo_M15-42.pdf

Edited by jwilly

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On 22/12/2019 at 8:29 AM, jwilly said:

German: SdKfz 7/1 halftrack, with FlaK Vierling (quad 20mm FlaK 38)

These were also mounted on opels and sdkfz251s, right?

unfortunately the production department has a critical lack of ressources because of unexpected IRL priorities that struck some volunteers. Everything has been critically impacted (map expansion, new units, UI, buildings...). Not to mention the big infrastructure projects (billing platform, servers) that consumed most of the energy from the heads of departments.

2020 will definitely deliver more than 2019, but if more volunteer artists want to consider to join, drop an email to Xoom :)

 

happy new year everyone 

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6 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

These were also mounted on opels and sdkfz251s, right?

unfortunately the production department has a critical lack of ressources because of unexpected IRL priorities that struck some volunteers. Everything has been critically impacted (map expansion, new units, UI, buildings...). Not to mention the big infrastructure projects (billing platform, servers) that consumed most of the energy from the heads of departments.

2020 will definitely deliver more than 2019, but if more volunteer artists want to consider to join, drop an email to Xoom :)

 

happy new year everyone 

I am useless, I have no skills and I go to community college plus some AFK (yes, I use the term AFK because I think everything that happens in the internet is considered real life) issues, I know some people with programming skills but they work hard and have very limited free time. I'll beg them to apply to CRS :)

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9 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

These were also mounted on opels and sdkfz251s, right?

AFAIK, yes in a few one-off instances on other heavier vehicles, but neither the SdKfz251 nor the Opel. In both instances the payload capacity and frame strength weren't large enough.

There are ~1941 historical photos of single FlaK 38s mounted to Opel flatbeds. Late in the war, multiple mounts (doubles, triples) of guns with less weight than the 20mm FlaK 38 were fitted to SdKfz 251 class vehicles. 

A key limitation of the FlaK Vierling gun system was the amount of loading activity and therefore room it required at the sides of the gun rig. For a reasonably high four-guns-firing RoF beyond the six seconds of ammunition in the 20 round magazines, each gun mount required two loaders per side. That's a lot of crew room, plus either aim-affecting rotating mass if the loaders ride the gun platform, or loss of reload efficiency if they're on the platform base while the platform rotates away from them to acquire and track its target.

Normally this was addressed in combat use by firing two guns at a time...one per side. The gun mount was equipped with two triggers to support this use. This allowed one loader per side to keep up, so that the gun mount could achieve close to continuous two gun fire until its thermal limit point.

In some multiple-aircraft attack circumstances that require more than six seconds of aggregate firing time, the FlaK Vierling design...whether fired four guns at once or two guns at a time...had about half the throw weight and therefore much less kill effectiveness than competitive gun systems such as the British two-gun Oerlikon mount. The Oerlikon gun had about twice the inherent RoF of the German FlaK 38 gun, and utilized a 60 round drum instead of a 20 round magazine. The Oerlikon therefore had about nine seconds of ammo per gun, as opposed to six for the FlaK 38. With two guns firing, a FlaK Vierling delivered about half as many shells per second as a two gun Oerlikon mount for the first nine seconds, until the Oerlikon mount had to be reloaded. The FlaK 38's magazine could be changed in four to six seconds...and in two-guns-firing mode, this was done continuously...while changing the Oerlikon's heavy drum required anywhere from ten to thirty seconds.

The FlaK Vierling when fired in four gun mode was about as effective as an Oerlikon two gun mount for the first six seconds. Reloading two guns per side with a single loader per side took about ten to twelve seconds, though, so that four gun mode was inefficient in longer engagements.

Note that the mid-war British had many triple Oerlikon mounts, and some quads as well. Especially in short engagements, these gun systems had far more throw weight and lethality than the FlaK Vierling or any other German low-altitude AA weapon.

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