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Mission Leader Tools

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At today's RAT chat we unveiled the current progress of one of our Roadmap items, the "Mission Leader Waypoint" update. The objective here is to provide users of all skill level better guidance and direction of where the critical objectives / rally points are. This is in keeping with CRS's intent to improve the game experience for everyone.

What other Mission Leader Tools can we develop?

Do note: Radical ideas sound cool but may be too difficult to accomplish. So post with the thought of minimum viable product to the best of your ability. I realize it's our job to help you discern that difference, so post away and any sort of sketches or concepts will definitely help us better understand your idea.

Here are the pictures from today's work in progress, Mission Leader Waypoints.

new-waypoints---map-view.jpg

new-waypoints---world-view.jpg

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Looking great but as you say radical ideas sound cool but may be too difficult to accomplish

Keep up the good work

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5 hours ago, tater said:

What % of people actually use the ML tools (either as MLs, or as grunts)?

*raises hand nervously*

 

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2 hours ago, jwrona said:

*raises hand nervously*

I see the marks, and appreciate the effort... but then do whatever I was gonna do, anyway.

It IS useful when I think I'm spawning at the AB or CP, and I end up in a field someplace because I didn't notice the MSP check when I spawned in (because someone said there was an ei in the bunker, or in the CP, and now I'm like a km away from where I expected to be). Useful if it's a FB bust, anyway, of course then I'm still just a rifle in the wrong place.

A better use of UI changes (IMHO) would be to make it clear from the mission screen that a mission is an MSP. Right now all look the same, but some have check marks. You could also click a mission without a check mark, and they could set by the time you hit enter world. I want to NEVER spawn at an MSP unless I mean to. Whatever UI results in that outcome is what I want. I respond to bunker 911 calls on chat... and end up at some DFMS more times than I might like to admit.

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21 hours ago, tater said:

I see the marks, and appreciate the effort... but then do whatever I was gonna do, anyway.

It IS useful when I think I'm spawning at the AB or CP, and I end up in a field someplace because I didn't notice the MSP check when I spawned in (because someone said there was an ei in the bunker, or in the CP, and now I'm like a km away from where I expected to be). Useful if it's a FB bust, anyway, of course then I'm still just a rifle in the wrong place.

A better use of UI changes (IMHO) would be to make it clear from the mission screen that a mission is an MSP. Right now all look the same, but some have check marks. You could also click a mission without a check mark, and they could set by the time you hit enter world. I want to NEVER spawn at an MSP unless I mean to. Whatever UI results in that outcome is what I want. I respond to bunker 911 calls on chat... and end up at some DFMS more times than I might like to admit.

When setting FB Busts or DFMS, I’m always updating .orders. Cuz that pops up before you spawn in. 
 

You’re a pretty seasoned vet, so the waypoints are more so for the new guys who will report “I’m at the target, what do I do now?” 

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4 hours ago, jwrona said:

When setting FB Busts or DFMS, I’m always updating .orders. Cuz that pops up before you spawn in. 
 

You’re a pretty seasoned vet, so the waypoints are more so for the new guys who will report “I’m at the target, what do I do now?” 

Yeah, I realize it's likely more helpful for people who are new. I just tend to see it as cat herding.

Not sure what I could think of that would be more broadly useful tool wise. It's a non-trivial problem.

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The more tools that players have , the more they will get used even by finding a use for them . 

Better too many tools than not enough.

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3 hours ago, tater said:

Yeah, I realize it's likely more helpful for people who are new. I just tend to see it as cat herding.

Just today... had a green tag who wouldn't communicate. But marking "R1" and telling him "go cap R1, you'll get points" and he did. Then two more after! Woot!

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Points.

Here's an old idea related to ML tools, missions actually being a thing, really (since they are not now, most times, just spawn points).

The entire rank system should be scrapped. Old timers want to have their officer ranks, etc for the forums? Sure, whatever.

Make the ranks matter more, and make the way to rank up earning points. Not points you build up forever (what we have now), but points that either drop to zero when you die, or take a large hit when you die (lesser hit when you MIA, even lesser hit with a RES, no hit RTB).

Say everyone starts a Pvt (most militaries had ~5-6 enlisted ranks). HC people can be commissioned officers, but any given spawn which might change (2dLt, Lt, Cap, Maj, LtCol, Col).

In both sets of ranks, you start at the bottom, and you gain points for capping, kills, guarding, etc. Reward what we want with more points. Related to ML tools, officers/noncoms who use the ML tools get some points (reward using the tools you just made). People also get added points for doing what the ML tools suggest. If you set a target as a CP, then they get points for capping/guarding that (as they would any CP), but they get extra because their mission says to.

Maybe the Pvt and Pfcs get rifles, grenadiers, mortars, to pick from, Pfcs add LMG, ATR. CPLs add SMGs and sappers. Sgts add engies and snipers (I'm making all this up, some leveling to get more rare stuff is the basic idea). Maybe all can crew a vehicle, or drive a truck or use the basic ATG. Other vehicles, etc have a rank requirement to spawn.

When you get killed, you lose a substantial number of points, such that you can get busted a few ranks. The system would allow excess points, however. So if you ranked up into Master Sgt, and had loads of excess points, you might be able to die a few times and still be a Sgt. The penalties for death matter at some level. The idea is some sense of rank in the game (anyone with a higher rank than you has at least lived longer in a streak recently than you have, so follow them!), but not have the penalties too draconian.

Maybe a ML power could scale to rank as well. let a ML give "attaboys" to people, instead of "gj" in chat, you do .gj jwrona, and the chat shows "gj" and jwrona gets a number of points scaled to the rank of the ML. Not enough to rank anyone, but a bonus. Another ML power could be to open some weapons to lower ranks. Sgt Major @jwrona makes a FB bust, and since he's a max rank noncom, he can free X engies for his mission (and the beleaguered town they are trying to save only has those engies, because pvts could not spawn the few engies to get slaughtered in the AB since they lacked the rank).

HC people would have similar spawn limits, but with officer rank instead of enlisted rank, but they get access to everything at a lower step as a perk for being in HC (say they get everything by Cap or Maj).

Tying all this to ML tools in some way (more points for the same action in a mission, vs doing what you want) strengthens the use of the tools. Might also spread out the availability of desirable kit.

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While I confess to not being online much one thing I think would be useful would be the ability for mission leaders to be able to limit the troop types or numbers used for a specific mission. allow an experienced mission leader prevent valuable units from being burnt on a camped defense or a mission just to do a fb bust that only needs a handful of units and some support.  this does have potential to be abused but if default missions have no restrictions would allow some limited control.

A more radical and potentially dangerous option would be to allow missions to be locked to squads or specific people. while i think this would be nice i could see too many people being cut out and not in the best interest of the game. People like myself that are in a fairly quiet squad would often not be able to join the more active squads missions unless you could add multiple squads. The aim of this is to get reliable teams for complex missions that require coordination or compliance.

 

Back to mission tags if you can add a comment that is visible that states for people to group up and wait for minimum numbers or other more complex instructions. defend the building, defend the direction. approach from the tree line. watch for the x. if these are too cluttered on the screen a highlight or asterisk that show there is more the the comment map note.

I do like the idea to make deaths more meaning full however the downside of this would be people that play grunts like myself that get mowed down by tank machine guns on a regular basis would be down graded and people that park in said tanks could float to the top in the ranks. Do we really want armoured to be in charge. ;) I have cited tanks as an example however you could apply this to other classes.  you could balance it with equipment types after looking at the statistics.

 

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9 hours ago, jwrona said:

Just today... had a green tag who wouldn't communicate. But marking "R1" and telling him "go cap R1, you'll get points" and he did. Then two more after! Woot!

Wait until this ML Waypoint thing goes live, I really hope people who are mission leaders take advantage of this as it will be the single greatest direction tool in the hands of our player-driven component we've created on the HUD.

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2 hours ago, vandoon said:

do like the idea to make deaths more meaning full however the downside of this would be people that play grunts like myself that get mowed down by tank machine guns on a regular basis would be down graded and people that park in said tanks could float to the top in the ranks. Do we really want armoured to be in charge. ;) I have cited tanks as an example however you could apply this to other classes.  you could balance it with equipment types after looking at the statistics.

We all get mowed down on a regular basis :D

I'd have any point system massively weight mission goals, captures, and guarding. Armor does one of those things. Infantry caps and holds. A new rank system would be balanced via playtesting. Most of us should be rifles---this is not a huge hardship, I bet I'm a rifle 80% of the time or more (is there a stat that shows total TOM by unit, and total spawns by unit?). I guess I propose such a system because it won't impact me at all, I'm fine being a Pvt. Players who like the coolest tank... yeah, they need to either be good enough with the lesser tanks to rank up (which means they are decent in tanks, and won't instantly waste it), or they need to do some time as inf to rank up. Both are fine by me.

Anyway, a new rank system like the current one, would be arbitrary, so how the points are awarded is open to tweaking. Seems like a tool that is unused to me, rank is meaningless right now.

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Any chance of making these kind of tools based on line of sight? A lot of games these days give you the ability to both report contacts and place objectives just by looking in a specific direction, clicking a button and where your line of sight ends, there the marker ends up. Check out Post Scriptum for an example.

Perhaps combine the line of sight feature with the object placement feature we already have, to reduce the amount misplaced markers? Like, select weapon 8, cycle with right mouse button until you get the marker you want, adjust your aim to get the marker where you want and left click to place. Mission leaders would get all the contact markers plus mission objective markers. Non mission leaders would get just the contact markers. Contact markers could be on one weapon key and mission objective markers could be on another weapon key.

An extra bonus would be if contact markers showed up on the HUD for a short while and then only showed on the map, like now. Mission objective markers could stay on the HUD.

Edited by mpathy42

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17 hours ago, tater said:

Points.

Here's an old idea related to ML tools, missions actually being a thing, really (since they are not now, most times, just spawn points).

The entire rank system should be scrapped. Old timers want to have their officer ranks, etc for the forums? Sure, whatever.

Make the ranks matter more, and make the way to rank up earning points. Not points you build up forever (what we have now), but points that either drop to zero when you die, or take a large hit when you die (lesser hit when you MIA, even lesser hit with a RES, no hit RTB).

Say everyone starts a Pvt (most militaries had ~5-6 enlisted ranks). HC people can be commissioned officers, but any given spawn which might change (2dLt, Lt, Cap, Maj, LtCol, Col).

In both sets of ranks, you start at the bottom, and you gain points for capping, kills, guarding, etc. Reward what we want with more points. Related to ML tools, officers/noncoms who use the ML tools get some points (reward using the tools you just made). People also get added points for doing what the ML tools suggest. If you set a target as a CP, then they get points for capping/guarding that (as they would any CP), but they get extra because their mission says to.

Maybe the Pvt and Pfcs get rifles, grenadiers, mortars, to pick from, Pfcs add LMG, ATR. CPLs add SMGs and sappers. Sgts add engies and snipers (I'm making all this up, some leveling to get more rare stuff is the basic idea). Maybe all can crew a vehicle, or drive a truck or use the basic ATG. Other vehicles, etc have a rank requirement to spawn.

When you get killed, you lose a substantial number of points, such that you can get busted a few ranks. The system would allow excess points, however. So if you ranked up into Master Sgt, and had loads of excess points, you might be able to die a few times and still be a Sgt. The penalties for death matter at some level. The idea is some sense of rank in the game (anyone with a higher rank than you has at least lived longer in a streak recently than you have, so follow them!), but not have the penalties too draconian.

Maybe a ML power could scale to rank as well. let a ML give "attaboys" to people, instead of "gj" in chat, you do .gj jwrona, and the chat shows "gj" and jwrona gets a number of points scaled to the rank of the ML. Not enough to rank anyone, but a bonus. Another ML power could be to open some weapons to lower ranks. Sgt Major @jwrona makes a FB bust, and since he's a max rank noncom, he can free X engies for his mission (and the beleaguered town they are trying to save only has those engies, because pvts could not spawn the few engies to get slaughtered in the AB since they lacked the rank).

HC people would have similar spawn limits, but with officer rank instead of enlisted rank, but they get access to everything at a lower step as a perk for being in HC (say they get everything by Cap or Maj).

Tying all this to ML tools in some way (more points for the same action in a mission, vs doing what you want) strengthens the use of the tools. Might also spread out the availability of desirable kit.

Starting to stray off topic when I say this... but he’s onto something.

 

The rank system seems like an easy change... it is currently pointless. And nowhere does it explain how you get more points for caps, defending kills, RTBs than you do for just killing a random EI in a field... points get (some) new guys all juiced up. 

 

Now the idea of “rank down for dying” seems a bit harsh. Especially to a guy who dies all the time driving trucks to town... like a noob...

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1 hour ago, jwrona said:

Now the idea of “rank down for dying” seems a bit harsh. Especially to a guy who dies all the time driving trucks to town... like a noob...

This part---getting busted in rank for dying---is ESSENTIAL for the system I propose to work.

Without it, don't bother wasting the time to alter the rank system, in a few weeks (days?) everyone will be max rank again, and we're back to rank being meaningless.

Death has to bust people. You set the death penalty in points, and the levels in points such that the busting happens the way we think it should (most players at any given moment should be a flavor of Pvt, followed in number by Cpls, and the rest a smattering of Sgts). Death should bust people, but doing desirable things---and this includes following the new ML tools (doing what the ML says, or being the ML and using the tools)---ranks you quickly. Easy come, easy go.

 

Edited by tater

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Note that for HC, they'd all be commissioned officers. The bulk as 1st and 2nd Lts, with some going up the chain, exactly like noncoms. The only benefit would be that if some stuff doesn't unlock until S/Sgt (ranks go Pvt-Pfc-Cpl-Sgt-S/Sgt-T/Sgt-M/Sgt, that's 7 ranks, might be reduced to whatever is common to all the forces), then instead of that unlocking at LtCol, it might unlock at Maj or even Cap (the idea is that the HC people have enough to deal with, and should have fewer limitations on what they can spawn). The spacing of ranks in terms of points can be different for HC, too, honestly. HC is a special case, and to the extent with think it is valuable to encourage it, they could have far fewer restrictions on what they can spawn, etc. Heck, rank for HC could be what it is now, just for show, and all HC can spawn everything might work. I'd leave that to people with more experience than me to decide.

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ML spawning, for organization, teamwork, and getting to action quick. For example, I march to within a few hundred yards of an nme flag, put out a call, a squad worth of soldiers can spawn in, we attack depot. Or, call goes out "pm me for next ao" I do, spawn my tank, fb is 3.5 clicks from town, I get 2 clicks from town at the desired attack position, put out call and a squad's worth of tanks can spawn off me. 

Something like that, to help with action and organization, with logical limits on distance and numbers consistent with current spawn rules, i.e. inf can't spawn closer than current fms distance, tanks can't spawn closer than a near fb distance etc. Think of the potential time saved for ships.

Edited by tnarg

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3 hours ago, tnarg said:

For example, I march to within a few hundred yards of an nme flag, put out a call, a squad worth of soldiers can spawn in, we attack depot. Or, call goes out "pm me for next ao" I do, spawn my tank, fb is 3.5 clicks from town, I get 2 clicks from town at the desired attack position, put out call and a squad's worth of tanks can spawn off me. 

Tanks spawning on tanks... gamey. Imagine if your AB is camped by one tank on a hill, and all of a sudden 4 more appear there and spread out to all angles... Half the tanking game is having patience to get your slow tank to the town.

Inf spawning within a few hundred yards of depot? why not bring back HCFMS (which CRS said is a no-go...)

Both can be accomplished with waypoints. Slap one on the map, rally at waypoint, go about your day. 

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4 hours ago, tater said:

This part---getting busted in rank for dying---is ESSENTIAL for the system I propose to work.

I mean more like, don't let one death dock more than one kill. Example... If I get a good 5 kill sortie, go up a rank. Then get killed 3 times, drop down, I'm going to make sure I'm not killed again. But that also means I'll likely be playing conservatively when I could be a bit more aggressive. I'll go cap the city instead of defend the spawn.

I like your logic, but a LOT of players, including my noob self, are sub 1.0 kdr... and if this is too harsh of a rule, people will hide and hide and hide as to not die to lose their rank even more than they already do (see green tags in field or buildings at any AO). 

Re-reading your post, it seems you addressed this. Something about reading it the first time threw me off. 

Example: Kill for 10pts, death for 3pts. Gives you a few cracks at it before you go negative. Like when you're charging a CP over and over and over and finally get the guy hiding in the corner upstairs. 

Again, sorry for going off topic... but I think the points system is a huge way to incentivize better gameplay by everyone. 

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Maybe I'm missing something, but as far as I know an fms, basically a little box covered with dirt, can spawn an army a few hundred yards from wherever. Though it is true, it stems from a truck - one truck with no riders coasting silently for a mile along the road to town, the road on the opposite side of town. 

And the nearest fbs are <2000ms from their targets, where again, a whole army of tanks may spawn.

Was just a suggestion that seemed consistent with whats in game already.

 

Edited by tnarg

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Yeah, I'm open to different points for different things. I was actually putting max points for CP-related stuff, as that;s the only play that is required by the game. Kills would in fact be lower than a cap or guarding a CP. The fastest way to rank up? Follow your ML's marks, and cap or guard the CP he says to cap/guard. Kills? Sure, a bonus.

6 minutes ago, jwrona said:

Example: Kill for 10pts, death for 3pts. Gives you a few cracks at it before you go negative. Like when you're charging a CP over and over and over and finally get the guy hiding in the corner upstairs. 

More like 25 for a capture, 10 for guarding, 5 for a kill, -100 for death.

I clear CPs we already own a lot. Usually with a rifle. Better to waste a rifle on this, than waste a SMG---though the latter is perhaps less likely to be wasted, depends on clearing a CP of just inf inside, inf with a cutter, or inf with armor cutting, etc).

Sorry for these long posts, I'm spitballing...

So make a rank system as above. But better rank gives the ML more tools/abilities/whatever. Not new gear. Maybe M/Sgt can make a FRU? (would prefer with on-sides rules, very limited spawn list, etc). Points gain rank, and rank gets busted in a less draconian way. Think of some rank benis that are not "stuff."

The same points can ALSO be used to buy spawned gear, though. Minimum points is always "1." If a rifle or truck costs 1 point, a SMG costs 5, LMG costs 10, engie costs 15, sniper costs 25, whatever. A tank might cost 50, a great tank might cost 150. ATGs? 10 for a crappy one, and up. You lose rank points to select weapons, but you gain 25 for a cap, 10 for guarding, 10 for leaving the depot, etc. You also get banged down (these are the same rank points) for death/MIA. Now players can spawn everything like now, but they THINK before paying for the units, and sometimes can only spawn a rifle. Spawning at a camped depot? Start with a rifle, right? need to clear the CP? Totally worth the SMG, as killing just 1 guy buys the SMG, clearing it earns it back in spades.

Take the -100 death, when the math is done matters... min rank points is always 1. So the FIRST thing the game does on despawn is subtracts 100. Say you have 25 points, and get killed. 25 - 100 = 1 in this case (doesn't go neg, stops at 1!). During that spawn you left the Depot, +10, you went to the CP the ML asked you to, +10, you killed a guy, +5, and helped recap it, +25. So while you died, you actually accomplished something. You accomplished 50 points of rank gain. Your points are now 51, even though you started with 25, and got killed. If you spawned a SMG with your 51 pts, and exit the Depot, you'd be at 56 pts (51-5+10). If you got killed outside you'd be down to 11 pts. If you got killed in the Depot, you're back to 1. I'm liking this better, since people can choose what to spawn, regardless of rank, they just need some points. You can never exceed Pvt and spawn anything.

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