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ian77

1.36 Fixed what?

32 posts in this topic

OK, same stale AO up now for almost 17 hours - no HC or RATs to move it..... guys log in, no ews in game, and log out.... IF we have to keep HC can a RAT at least drop in every 3 hours to see if the AO is dead? 17 hours, what a waste of a day off.

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5 hours ago, ian77 said:

OK, same stale AO up now for almost 17 hours - no HC or RATs to move it..... guys log in, no ews in game, and log out.... IF we have to keep HC can a RAT at least drop in every 3 hours to see if the AO is dead? 17 hours, what a waste of a day off.

Do you (and other veterans who understand WWIIOL well) want to join High Command to help manage the AO's, and maintain a player-driven game, or do you want CRS to program a way to automatically remove stale AO's / find alternatives to HC managing AO's, because AO's are really all they have left to handle other than rallying troops / comms.

I strongly recommend players join High Command to help manage AOs. HC is no longer burdened with crazy amounts of responsibility as it used to be, that's what 1.36 Hybrid Supply solved, and that in fact, has been solved - ask any HC officer who is currently there now, who has had pre-1.36 HC experience.

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Last day I logged in early during euro timezone and there was indeed no HC available. But I managed to easily get through the help command to remove and create another AO. The last time I did was back in 2004 :)

So I guess more of you could receive that command as reserve HC, indeed. 

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The question is why do we still need HC?

In case no HC is on why can't a high ranking player make that call?

It should be not that hard to code a few simple commands that the highest ranking player in game can do to move an AO or set a new AO , without having to rely on HC.

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18 hours ago, XOOM said:

Do you (and other veterans who understand WWIIOL well) want to join High Command to help manage the AO's, and maintain a player-driven game, or do you want CRS to program a way to automatically remove stale AO's / find alternatives to HC managing AO's, because AO's are really all they have left to handle other than rallying troops / comms.

I strongly recommend players join High Command to help manage AOs. HC is no longer burdened with crazy amounts of responsibility as it used to be, that's what 1.36 Hybrid Supply solved, and that in fact, has been solved - ask any HC officer who is currently there now, who has had pre-1.36 HC experience.

As someone who has HC experience pre and post 1.36 all I can say is that 1.36 has made the HC game boring.  There is not Strategy anymore. no challenge.  there isn't the thrill of realising that the opposition has made a mistake and you only have  a limited window to exploit that mistake and move the map forward. No thrill in capping a town and knowing that you can breakout and push the map.  There is far less thrill in cutting towns and kicking flags because flags mean so little now.  everything is basically one massive grind, since all towns have ample supply its either hit them hard and fast and cap the whole place before any defenders show up  or grind them down constantly in attrition battle. 

 

Just ask players like @Silky who was always active HC  pre 1.36 who I've not seen online in game at all post it. 

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1 hour ago, foe2 said:

As someone who has HC experience pre and post 1.36 all I can say is that 1.36 has made the HC game boring.  There is not Strategy anymore. no challenge.  there isn't the thrill of realising that the opposition has made a mistake and you only have  a limited window to exploit that mistake and move the map forward. No thrill in capping a town and knowing that you can breakout and push the map.  There is far less thrill in cutting towns and kicking flags because flags mean so little now.  everything is basically one massive grind, since all towns have ample supply its either hit them hard and fast and cap the whole place before any defenders show up  or grind them down constantly in attrition battle. 

 

Just ask players like @Silky who was always active HC  pre 1.36 who I've not seen online in game at all post it. 

I can certainly see what @XOOM is saying about trying to make it better for everyone, because let's face it, when one side has HC for hours and one side doesn't, that's how we get breakouts that race across the map.  That said, I wish there was a bit more to do as HC because it is kind of a boring job now.  I'm much more of a cheerleader than anything else at this point.  I've rejoined to do my part, but if you look at the map now, for example, there is no way for me to get flags into a place where I can threaten Allied lines and help break the Axis out of where we are.  I personally loved the old flag dance, that strategy of going up against someone you knew on the other side and seeing which of you would make the mistake first.  That was fun and challenging. 

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1 hour ago, foe2 said:

As someone who has HC experience pre and post 1.36 all I can say is that 1.36 has made the HC game boring.  There is not Strategy anymore. no challenge.  there isn't the thrill of realising that the opposition has made a mistake and you only have  a limited window to exploit that mistake and move the map forward. No thrill in capping a town and knowing that you can breakout and push the map.  There is far less thrill in cutting towns and kicking flags because flags mean so little now.  everything is basically one massive grind, since all towns have ample supply its either hit them hard and fast and cap the whole place before any defenders show up  or grind them down constantly in attrition battle. 

 

Just ask players like @Silky who was always active HC  pre 1.36 who I've not seen online in game at all post it. 

I won't labour the point but I made my views clear on 1.36 - the trajectory the game took wasn't one that appealed to me personally, so I saw no point in continuing as HC. I noted the recent mission waypoint development, I've said for years that the reason that TOES didn't maintain the heights of the 1.27 days wasn't down to a lack of HC coverage, it was because the game didn't sufficiently allow players in leadership positions to actually, practically lead, which made leading a battle against the game systems, which became tiresome and made leading a less positive experience. I'll again paraphase Gagamel - one of the game's most effective, fearsome field leaders - 'when the best command-control tool you have is the enemy boat mark, you're in trouble'.

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4 hours ago, dre21 said:

The question is why do we still need HC?

In case no HC is on why can't a high ranking player make that call?

It should be not that hard to code a few simple commands that the highest ranking player in game can do to move an AO or set a new AO , without having to rely on HC.

I totally agree on this,

Highest ranking player on that side should be able to clear and place AOs, nothing else.

going off of what @foe2 said, HC is boring now, basically placing and clearing AOs, sometimes moves flag, garrisons have made it easier for any side to breakout towards the opposing factories. 

imo, i do not like the garrisons, but are very useful if you have no supply in a frontline town, so you can bring backline supply.

 

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Whether CRS want to acknowledge it or not the game has reverted to a mass spawn, cap the spawnable, campfest.

If this doesn't work it becomes a grindfest which bores PAYING  and f2p customers alike.

I am in total agreement that there is currently no way to actually lead attacks or defence. For any wargame this is indefensible. 

 

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HC reserves is the only option for placing and removing attack objectives and bridge objectives other than full HC member.

Submit your OCS application and take a couple hour training course and advise that you want to be a reserve officer.

S!

 

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16 hours ago, dropbear said:

Whether CRS want to acknowledge it or not the game has reverted to a mass spawn, cap the spawnable, campfest.

If this doesn't work it becomes a grindfest which bores PAYING  and f2p customers alike.

I am in total agreement that there is currently no way to actually lead attacks or defence. For any wargame this is indefensible. 

 

Cap a spawnable, try to get a lot of people to spawn and get out before tanks surround it and camp it, rinse, repeat.  Especially once bazooka/panzershrek is in the game, there is no way to bring attacking tanks into a town (good lord Axis should never do this with stuff like Tigers anyway!) and try to secure said CPs to keep them from being camped.  And before someone says "cover the tanks with infantry", how do we go about doing that when we barely have enough infantry to cap and hold CPs, let alone then cover our tanks?

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I don't know how you really determine the highest ranking player on a side is.

Perhaps just give an AO to the top three squads(in numbers) and have squads appoint members to have the power to place them- a squad could have 5-10 members able to place and AO.

Would put the game back in control of squads and players

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Once move to OR done, reset everyones rank to rookie.

Easy enough to rank back up - put some fun back into it.

 

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On 12/17/2019 at 10:48 AM, foe2 said:

As someone who has HC experience pre and post 1.36 all I can say is that 1.36 has made the HC game boring.  There is not Strategy anymore. no challenge.  there isn't the thrill of realising that the opposition has made a mistake and you only have  a limited window to exploit that mistake and move the map forward. No thrill in capping a town and knowing that you can breakout and push the map.  There is far less thrill in cutting towns and kicking flags because flags mean so little now.  everything is basically one massive grind, since all towns have ample supply its either hit them hard and fast and cap the whole place before any defenders show up  or grind them down constantly in attrition battle. 

Just ask players like @Silky who was always active HC  pre 1.36 who I've not seen online in game at all post it. 

That thrill you're referring to also resulted in the worst morale conditions possible on the receiving end, which also directly impacted business.

Let's please also remember just how badly High Command was failing on both sides to field an appropriate level of officer coverage to manage the in-game operations. The same people who are criticizing 1.36 were the ones responsible predominately for the High Command at a COMMAND level. You know what their response was for the problem? CRS didn't do enough. Well, we answered that call and 1.36 removed the total reliance on too few.

Not too long ago the game was crippled with no HC online. While it may have been fun for some veteran High Commander's, the game's operation was dependent on a pure volunteer force who always felt they did not have sufficient manpower or tools to succeed. Put any new guy into that scenario and it was a doomsday scenario, I saw people gain their officer rank and within a week be gone because it was too much pressure.

What is High Command now? HC is a leadership organization which is now driven towards supporting the gameplay, specifically by rallying troops, moving supplemental supply, establishing attack objectives. Now the players don't have to beg for an HC officer to be online to spawn into the game world, and we're seeing new officers joining because they're learning it's not a big spooky set of responsibilities like it was.

You know what they were? A select few officers moving flags in the background answering to themselves mostly, ripping AO's out from under players without saying a word, and complaining about how hard it was to find a Map OIC. Yes, this stuff actually happened, a lot. Fortunately not by everyone, but there's a clear history of repetition of that behavior.

So let's please not pretend like these changes were without consideration or years of clear evidence that High Command was overtaxed with their responsibilities and with the game's operation being on their shoulders almost exclusively, was a game design failure. How do I know this? Because I spent the first half of my time at CRS working with High Command's via our Community Management  / Game Management team(s) trying to solve these problems.

So we had to get surgical guys, I'm sorry you may not like it as much, but we had to make the right call to stabilize the campaign. And I believe that we have done so.

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On 12/17/2019 at 1:48 PM, foe2 said:

As someone who has HC experience pre and post 1.36 all I can say is that 1.36 has made the HC game boring.  There is not Strategy anymore. no challenge.  there isn't the thrill of realising that the opposition has made a mistake and you only have  a limited window to exploit that mistake and move the map forward. No thrill in capping a town and knowing that you can breakout and push the map.  There is far less thrill in cutting towns and kicking flags because flags mean so little now.  everything is basically one massive grind, since all towns have ample supply its either hit them hard and fast and cap the whole place before any defenders show up  or grind them down constantly in attrition battle. 

 

Just ask players like @Silky who was always active HC  pre 1.36 who I've not seen online in game at all post it. 

It was accurately predicted that 1.36 would dumb down the game as implemented in its current state.  I remember very well those absolutely tense moments between your timers and your enemy's timers, whether it be on brigade movement, AO placement, capping CPs... all of it created an unbelievably electric atmosphere whenever both sides were matching wits with one another.  

 

On 12/17/2019 at 2:54 PM, dwalin said:

I can certainly see what @XOOM is saying about trying to make it better for everyone, because let's face it, when one side has HC for hours and one side doesn't, that's how we get breakouts that race across the map.  That said, I wish there was a bit more to do as HC because it is kind of a boring job now.  I'm much more of a cheerleader than anything else at this point.  I've rejoined to do my part, but if you look at the map now, for example, there is no way for me to get flags into a place where I can threaten Allied lines and help break the Axis out of where we are.  I personally loved the old flag dance, that strategy of going up against someone you knew on the other side and seeing which of you would make the mistake first.  That was fun and challenging. 

I feel like this encapsulates how I see the state of HC today.  Cheerleading has always been a part of HC, but those oh-so-addictive electric moments that made the boring work (like cheerleading) worth it are pretty much gone.  

 

Pre-1.36 was more of a "valleys and peaks" type system, where you would have good times with plenty of HC... then bad times with low HC/player turnout.  The problem with 1.36 is that by removing the old valleys they've also removed the old peaks... you know, the high water marks of WWIIOL gameplay.  

 

1.36 is still viable, but not in its current state imo.  Garrisons should never have had the amount of supply that they do.  They are garrisons for crying out loud.  If you want to have more ebb and flow, if you want to have more peak moments of gameplay, then you need to risk having those valleys too.  

 

In pre-1.36, if one side lost enough brigades then the other side could "softcap" territory at their discretion at certain parts of the map.  At some point those lost brigades would come back from training and the line would stabilize.  On a fundamental level, that is an example of ebb and flow.  New CRS said that this was too much ebb and flow.  

 

Well fine, but consider the following.  Imagine the above situation again:  a loss of brigades has lead to a "softcapping" opening.  This situation is exactly the same as the one above in that there is a problem, a predicament, an issue because of the loss of movable brigades.  Only this time instead of waiting 8-12 hours for those brigades to come back while the players are forced to watch the other side capture territory without being able to fight, now the players can spawn into those towns no longer occupied/covered with brigades and defend them with a small, token force (you know, a garrison).  

 

Now will this company be able to hold against a full division with enough players committed to spawning that supply?  Probably not.  BUT casualties will be taken during that battle.  And the next battle.  And the next.  And eventually those enemy brigades will run out of steam simply by coming into battle with enough of those smaller garrisons.  And now instead of 40 towns lost as in pre-1.36, you are looking at 20 towns lost.  Or 10.  Or 5.  The side that is receiving the punch isn't knocked out.  In fact, their brigades are just about to come back, and now it's their turn to go on the attack against an exhausted and over extended enemy.  But instead of the enemy having to retreat with empty brigades as they did in pre-1.36, they too get to spawn in with their garrison troops and stall the enemy's advance!  Who knows, maybe this counter advance will itself advance too far, and a new opportunity will be presented! 

 

In essence, the game ebbs and flows as a consequence of its previous ebbs and flows.  

 

Did that "second" ebb and flow happen in the old system?  Yes, but it often came far too late and was too unforgiving of mistakes because all of those towns that were undefended.  The new system with garrisons could effectively put a damper on those movements that CRS considered to be too much. 

 

Are these peaks going to be as high as the old system without garrisons?  Honestly, no they won't be as exciting.  But the valleys won't be as deep and excruciating either.  That should have been the approach with 1.36.  Instead, the current implementation has sucked the life out of the game for me.  There is just no liveliness or sense of vitality anymore.  

 

TL;DR In short, there is no more "flow" since 1.36, and the opposite of fluidity is stagnation.  That's what you are creating when you stock up the garrisons with that much supply and leave the movable brigades to the wayside.  

 

You can counter argue me all you want about why it needed to be done and whatever else, but I'm just making an observation that the move made to stabilize the game has in fact stagnated it.  It's up to CRS what they want to do with that kind of situation.  

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I far prefer the game post 1.36. Ok, when the game had 4x the population the HC system worked and provided both the non-HC playerbase and HC members the different kind of thrill they were looking for. Fact is, that model just did not work any longer with the population as it was/is. CRS had to adapt and i think where they landed with 1.36 is a good concept. Sure, the number of moveable flags and garrison supply numbers could be tinkered with a bit to give a bit more emphasis to the importance of those flags. 

I never found it entertaining soft capping towns where the enemy could not spawn in and put up a fight. This is a game after all ... and finding ways to ensure there is some action that is relatively easy to be found is a good thing imo.

Edited by choad
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Without hesitation. 1.36 is way more adapted. People argues against 1.36 but they are not even playing it. Funny.

 

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18 hours ago, choad said:

I far prefer the game post 1.36. Ok, when the game had 4x the population the HC system worked and provided both the non-HC playerbase and HC members the different kind of thrill they were looking for. Fact is, that model just did not work any longer with the population as it was/is. CRS had to adapt and i think where they landed with 1.36 is a good concept. Sure, the number of moveable flags and garrison supply numbers could be tinkered with a bit to give a bit more emphasis to the importance of those flags. 

I never found it entertaining soft capping towns where the enemy could not spawn in and put up a fight. This is a game after all ... and finding ways to ensure there is some action that is relatively easy to be found is a good thing imo.

Absolutely. It’s a fantastic concept. I mean I helped coin it. Soft capping was a plague that needed getting rid of.

 

But the balance point atm is not where it needs to be. 

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On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 0:22 AM, XOOM said:

Do you (and other veterans who understand WWIIOL well) want to join High Command to help manage the AO's, and maintain a player-driven game, or do you want CRS to program a way to automatically remove stale AO's / find alternatives to HC managing AO's, because AO's are really all they have left to handle other than rallying troops / comms.

I strongly recommend players join High Command to help manage AOs. HC is no longer burdened with crazy amounts of responsibility as it used to be, that's what 1.36 Hybrid Supply solved, and that in fact, has been solved - ask any HC officer who is currently there now, who has had pre-1.36 HC experience.

I have done two tours in Axis HC once upon a long time ago. I did offer to rejoin as a reserve HC a year or so back, but the refresher training only seemed available in the wee small hours of the morning... in any event I play both sides, occasionally during the same map, and clearly that would not work with being in HC.

I prefer 1.36 for low pop without HC when we have viable AOs, and appreciate the steps taken by CRS2 to improve the game experience. I know the RATs are all volunteers, but isn't it possible to have a rota where a RAT logs in very 3 or 4 hours? Or have a GM be able to anonymously pull a dead AO and then system can place a new one? I presume the system cannot pull an AO where there has been no ews for say 30mins or an hour and reset another?  We  (the allies) had dead AO for over 17 hours.

 

S! Ian 

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On 12/22/2019 at 5:46 AM, Capco said:

 Garrisons should never have had the amount of supply that they do.  They are garrisons for crying out loud.

This times 1,000.  The main assault force in the game right now is the Garrison.  I would use the garrison as a defensive unit to help prevent breakouts by divisions. Add 1-2 more divisions back onto the map and make them the size they are now, but reduce garrison supply to make it much more of a defensive force.

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Yeah, I'm with the "Garrisons are too big" crowd.

Softcapping is indeed awful, but if resupply is adjusted, and Garrisons decreased, then at least the brave but fruitless fighting by a much smaller Garrison will have some effect on the attacker. The moving units (BDEs) need to matter. How that gets squared with an automated AO system, I don't know.

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2 hours ago, dwalin said:

This times 1,000.  The main assault force in the game right now is the Garrison.  I would use the garrison as a defensive unit to help prevent breakouts by divisions. Add 1-2 more divisions back onto the map and make them the size they are now, but reduce garrison supply to make it much more of a defensive force.

+1

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1 hour ago, tater said:

The moving units (BDEs) need to matter.

Most HC nowadays have no idea How, When, Where, Why etc, so no that would be an insane...

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4 minutes ago, bus0 said:

Most HC nowadays have no idea How, When, Where, Why etc, so no that would be an insane...

They they need to be better trained.  

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