Mosizlak

HE/HEAT satchel timer change

37 posts in this topic

Why was the detonation timer on the HEAT/HE satchel charges changed? 

Used to be 8 seconds. Now they are 12 seconds.  

You place a HEAT satchel on an enemy tank, he hears it, and he has 2 seconds to hit the despawn before the timer counts down and explodes, and almost all tankers that are not complete knobs are doing it now.

 

Is this an intended change? Or a mistake?  Would like a clarification. 

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Funny , that you make this post ,a Squad mate made the same comment today. 

 

 

Shouldn't that be in the read me ? But of course there are never changes in game without notification. 

 

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9 minutes ago, dre21 said:

Funny , that you make this post ,a Squad mate made the same comment today. 

 

 

Shouldn't that be in the read me ? But of course there are never changes in game without notification. 

 

I'm thinking it's a bug, because this is too stupid to be a deliberate change. 

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Seems it did change, I show about 10 sec now; was 8.

SD changed this map too.

 

Edited by delems

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25 minutes ago, delems said:

Seems it did change, I show about 10 sec now; was 8.

 

I counted 12 seconds when I just tested it.  

Used a stopwatch, 10 seconds. Still longer than it used to be. 

Edited by Mosizlak

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I just checked the current version, a 1.35 version and even went back more than 10 years and the fuse is and always  has been set to a 10 second burn. 

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18 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I just checked the current version, a 1.35 version and even went back more than 10 years and the fuse is and always  has been set to a 10 second burn. 

You never had time to despawn before it exploded, now you do. How is that possible without a change? 

 

I ALWAYS remembered it being 8 seconds. Always, because even if you hit despawn at soon as you heard it, you never had to time to beat it exploding. Now you do. 

How is that the same? 

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You gotta click fire to set it then hit esc. 10 secs to boom and 10 secs after you hit the key

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3 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

You gotta click fire to set it then hit esc. 10 secs to boom and 10 secs after you hit the key

We're not all crazy. Something changed. 

We all don't notice a change at the same time, without talking to each other. 

Nily has sapped a thousand tanks, I have too, never have they ever had the chance to despawn. Now they do. 

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The vid above is a vanilla 1.25, 2005 year install I had on a old HD, not a dev version. I can't change anything in it, the vid shows 10 seconds. The current satchels have 10 second fuses. The old 1.17 from 2003 has a 10 second timer. It has not changed anywhere I look

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Any chance the timers are different per country? German timers got borked ... or have always been borked. Or U.K. timers were too fast, for example, or something? I mean not intentionally ... just wondering if that is where some of the confusion could be?

Edited by choad

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I understand that this is totally a gameplay issue. 

However, the game "HEAT satchel" weapon was inspired by an actual Germans-only infantry AT device. The late-1940/early-1941 first version of that weapon had a four second pull fuze. It wasn't until the 1942/43 third version that the fuze was changed to seven seconds. That's as long as it ever was.

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38 minutes ago, choad said:

Any chance the timers are different per country? German timers got borked ... or have always been borked. Or U.K. timers were too fast, for example, or something? I mean not intentionally ... just wondering if that is where some of the confusion could be?

No, for satchels it's 10 seconds across the board

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HE has been 8 seconds for long time, I know for sure, I've timed it.

Not sure when it changed, but it did; it was not 10 seconds.

 

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Does the  client lag we are experiencing lately have anything to do with this perception?

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I dunno - i would just say there are a bunch of video's out there on youtube that featue tank sapping - taken at various times throughout the past years:

 

 

 

 

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Ya, just timed it - was 8 seconds. (last vid)

I can't really say for HEAT, but I know for sure HE was 8 seconds.

 

Edited by delems

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11 minutes ago, delems said:

Ya, just timed it - was 8 seconds. (last vid)

I can't really say for HEAT, but I know for sure HE was 8 seconds.

 

Sachel dropped at 21sec, exploded at 31sec. 31-21=10sec.

Just re-adjust the clocks in your head :)

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Ya, could be 9 :)

Regardless, I know I've timed HE, it was 8 seconds.  I've never directly tested HEAT.

How come players posting it was 8 seconds here if it wasn't?
Really believe we just making this up?

 

I suppose SD wasn't 30 seconds last map either?  It was 15?

Some changes are being found, just want to understand them.

 

And, lets suppose for a minute we are all crazy, and it never has been 8 seconds.

The original post still makes sense, tanks should not be able to despawn before a HEAT charge goes off.

 

Edited by delems
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Along with fused timer changes....placement of satchels change's... so what use to work keeps changing for no kills...it's getting to be a guessing game where to sap some of the tanks for axis side in later tiers the only constant is tiger tanks sap spot stays the same...not sure is this applies to allied side too...I would like to know...if allied tanks sap spots are changing from axis player POV.

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4 hours ago, delems said:

Ya, could be 9 :)

Regardless, I know I've timed HE, it was 8 seconds.  I've never directly tested HEAT.

How come players posting it was 8 seconds here if it wasn't?
Really believe we just making this up?

 

I suppose SD wasn't 30 seconds last map either?  It was 15?

Some changes are being found, just want to understand them.

 

And, lets suppose for a minute we are all crazy, and it never has been 8 seconds.

The original post still makes sense, tanks should not be able to despawn before a HEAT charge goes off.

 

Perhaps the tank is aware that a sapper is about to send him home early and he pulls the plug early? No idea - just considering other possibilities. 

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9 hours ago, gridiron said:

Along with fused timer changes....placement of satchels change's... so what use to work keeps changing for no kills...it's getting to be a guessing game where to sap some of the tanks for axis side in later tiers the only constant is tiger tanks sap spot stays the same...not sure is this applies to allied side too...I would like to know...if allied tanks sap spots are changing from axis player POV.

Yes, yes they have over the years , best one I can remember is the S35 a Heat between the 2 humps I believe right side would flame S35 , now u get white smoke . That change happened a while back , but it changed without a read me.

I know the char Sap spots have changed over the years too without ever being in a read me.

Nily made that comment yesterday that ETs have now time to despawn before the Satchel goes off. 

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I'm getting old but best as my memory serves this vid from me testing this morning is the same sap spots I've always used on s35 and char. I did 5 tanks each with same result every time.   

 

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Naturally I cannot speak for current development, but I do know how the vehicle models are made and doubt very much this has changed even though I am sure they want to change to an easier vehicle creation paradigm.

There was never at any time a "sap spot" created in any vehicle for that purpose, which could subsequently be moved through patching. To hold onto that idea will mislead you into erroneous assumptions ... if a real answer (the truth) is what you seek rather than simply a point of conspiracy. Here's how HEAT sapping actually works with respect to vehicle destruction :-

When a vehicle (say ... a tank) is created it has components inside of it that will react to a HEAT satchel charge going off depending on what the stream of plasma exiting the charge 
(at 90 degrees to it's final "clicked into place" location and orientation) ... depending on what this "stream of plasma" that is modeled at detonation, impacts as it penetrates the tanks outer skin. The components that will cause tank destruction (brew up) are :-

Fuel tanks.

Ammunition.

Oil tanks.

If one of these components is hit, and sufficient fire creation results from that impact ... a fire will start. That component will burn until sufficient further damage threshold is achieved by the fire and the tank burns out killing all the crew or it blows up. Blowing up requires the damage to happen in the ammunition stores either at impact by the plasma stream (can be a very short delay even almost instant) or by fire spreading from an adjacent location (engine, oil, fuel) .... so sapping as an attack upon a tank (or any other vehicle as they all the same process) depends on :-

Thickness of the modeled armour (or skin) between the HEAT satchel charge and the component that will burn or explode directly in the path of the plasma jet, given it penetrates the armour (skin) of the vehicle it is placed upon.

Location of the flammable (or explodable)  component that will lead to destruction of the vehicle or crew when the plasma stream or jet impacts that component post penetration. Thus, fuel tanks. oil tanks and ammunition are the components of concern here.  A crew member could be hit directly by the stream of plasma and that would kill them whether a fire stared or not.

Direction of the plasma stream. It exits the satchel charge at 90 degrees to it's flat plane or planform, through the "bottom" of the charge and has a penetration attribute in addition to a joules of impact force attribute.

Variations in how the charge has "clicked into place" can occur (it is supposed to mimic a magnetic clasp to the armour or skin) but in reality it sticks to any flat plane surface. If there are multiple angles converging at a point of placement it will "sort" the flat planes relative to itself and usually adhere to the dominant one at point of placement. Which way it faces upon "adhering" to the target depends on the flat plane it has chosen to adhere to. Of several competing flat planes that may be at that point of placement I cannot be sure exactly which one will be accepted as dominant and thus control the orientation of the HEAT charge and it's subsequent direction of penetrating plasma stream ... which is always at 90 degrees to the final orientation of the HEAT charge and fires out through the bottom at said 90 degrees. All of this stuff is calculated and sorted based on modeled colliders and collision math.

Naturally, the modeled thickness of the skin or amour of the target has some bearing on the ability of the HEAT satchel to penetrate it. The resistance to damage of the internal fire (or explosion) component (engine, fuel tank, oil tank, stored ammunition) is also going to have a say in the outcome.

++++

I'm not in any way saying things cannot, did not or would never change ... with respect to sapping tanks (or any vehicle) with a HEAT charge. What I do want to illustrate however, is that there never was (and almost certainly is not now) "sap spots" modeled on tanks or vehicles. There are only components that will cause the tank (or vehicle) to burn or be destroyed ... placed inside that vehicle in various locations that can be damaged by a HEAT satchel if it is placed where the plasma stream will penetrate the outer skin (and any subsequent inner skin along it's path of travel) to impact into that fuel/oil/engine/ammunition damage component.

"Sap spots" actually don't exist as components you can move around. They do exist as a confluence of all the modeled criteria that can converge to a point of resolution based on the attributes of the components  concerned with the event. To change a "sap spot" would require remodeling the internal/external construction of the vehicle in question, or altering the satchel charge and it's weapon attributes. There isn't a "sap spot" to  change the location of as a "sap spot" .... rather you'd have to alter the things that affect the charges effectiveness when it goes off relative between the vehicle in question and the charge itself.

The only way to "move a sap spot" in this model is to change location of the component on the inside of the vehicle (oil tanks, fuel tanks, engines or ammunition storage) ... change the thickness of any flat plane of "skin" that the plasma stream must pass through (hull, bulkheads, engine blocks, breech blocks, gearboxes, etc..) or change the attributes of the charge itself as a penetrator and dealer of joules to the target components. You'd have to remodel the target vehicle in a way that changes the location/angle/properties of the target component or the skin around it/adjacent to it (that may protect it to varying degrees) but there isn't a "sap spot" you can move from here to there or otherwise change to affect satchel charge effectiveness. It's just a collection of things unrelated to satchel charges that satchel charges (and explosive rounds, AP rounds, bombs or bullets as well) can affect should they deal joules of damage to those target components.

Edited by DOC
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