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tyrdaimp

Remove Garrisons

79 posts in this topic

Ok, do you know if the brig numbers are pegged to historical realities?

I think one reason why people may feel frustrated defending CPs is that it seems sometimes like the enemy has unlimited SMGs hitting it while the defenders quickly exhaust their supply.  (I am assuming the Axis experience what I do as an Ally).  We may presume this over-abundance by the attackers is that they are running boots out of a FMS tied to a brigade, rather than a depot, and not actually an arbitrary advantage to the enemy.  But honestly, as someone who defends CPs quite a bit, and will often run my own FMS from the brig/garrison, it still feels like they go rather fast... 

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On 2/4/2020 at 3:38 PM, pfmosquito said:

Ok, do you know if the brig numbers are pegged to historical realities?

I think one reason why people may feel frustrated defending CPs is that it seems sometimes like the enemy has unlimited SMGs hitting it while the defenders quickly exhaust their supply.  (I am assuming the Axis experience what I do as an Ally).  We may presume this over-abundance by the attackers is that they are running boots out of a FMS tied to a brigade, rather than a depot, and not actually an arbitrary advantage to the enemy.  But honestly, as someone who defends CPs quite a bit, and will often run my own FMS from the brig/garrison, it still feels like they go rather fast... 

Here is an example of Axis infantry squad, then platoon-

 

aqukeb8lw4c21.jpg

Base of fire is the LMG, keeping the beast fed is a priority.  Everything else is supporting getting that LMG on target.

Later on, they lose the ammo guys and get an extra SMG and I think that's a semi-auto per squad, probably a reaction to US Garands and Soviet SMG battalions.

e971502379547be78afe77c69cf84092.jpg

a137e0_5ef94893a8184bbbab60a1b765bacc80~

 

UK infantry, similar ratios-

a137e0_532edec0a2cb459f8cdaaa21197f764b~

 

US, firepower is spread across the lower ROF BAR to MGs and the Garands.  Note the launchers, arguably the US forces are underequipped and should have more grenadiers.

a137e0_ef0090624cf94ad0890f53a6a12bb790~

USSR, similar ratios, with a slant towards snipey-

a137e0_53497686056e496da88952069940bde6~

a137e0_f7627e160b2440b9b06edbea2c6de568~

a137e0_24c9704354b24d2aa2f6e2bec079398f~

Near the end, they were kind of running out of people, so a little more firepower and less soldiers.....

a137e0_9ff5137a79fb4a75992f45723e169ad6~

a137e0_e4d7640f4208420fb5321daa3b7c9212~

 

So game ratios are not that crazy off, it's just that the close quarter battle burns through SMGs like butter and everybody leads with their MGs rather then operate in ratio formations like the above.

 

Most battles are going to be started by an opponent who can create a superior supply situation, after all that's what happened from the AB supply/overstock part of the game to ToE maneuver to now.  It's just less margin now before the undersupplied defender runs out.

 

Spawning discipline wins battles, but neither side is particularly good on this point.  People get frustrated pretty easily when their rifle runs into MG guy.  Great players, bad recreationists.

 

Arguably you could put a lot of MGs in many sides in later tiers, common reaction to up the firepower when your team is hurting.....

a137e0_50cd5125f00249bc9624df4fdad40e06~

a137e0_ba232a8e0df0415eb2101ade94f30034~

 

Problem is the darn British, they just didn't take the firepower pill.   But the Home Guard got some firepower, again I guess to make up for if things got That Bad.

UK%20Home%20Guard%201942-01.png

Everybody's Para/Marines/Ranger outfit also got firepower upgrades.

Hmm, maybe home garrisons should get SMG upgrades?

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On 2/3/2020 at 3:13 PM, Capco said:

It's like some of us had a crystal ball or something back when 1.36 was first being discussed.  

 

It's a combination of humor and outright fury for me though, Kile.  And it's heavy on the fury.  This style of hybrid should have been what we went with all along (i.e. way more than 3 divisions on the map alongside smaller garrisons in every town to prevent softcapping without some kind of fight).  

There is a point when you stop caring.  I don't know that it was a BAD decision for them, and I do appreciate that they paid careful attention to the Allied situation and made significant allowances in their design, but smacking head into wall gets old.

 

TBH the spawnlists have me much further down then the ToEs, along with how much further ahead we would be IMO with investment in programming time for organic organizing tools rather then garrisons.

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On 2/10/2020 at 8:33 PM, Kilemall said:

along with how much further ahead we would be IMO with investment in programming time for organic organizing tools rather then garrisons.

I couldn't agree more on that front.  

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On 2/12/2020 at 1:02 PM, hillstorm said:

@Kilemall those are cool graphics/posters. Where do they come from? 

This site, Battle Order.  TBH didn't know the site existed until I started looking for some of the old online resources for this information for this thread, and I kept getting cool as heck graphics results.

https://www.battleorder.org/

 

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The inability to fire accurately with some SMGs is a stumbling block to wanting more of them, particularly when others act like rifles, and some of the exact rifles lack capabilities they had (The Enfield is way, way better in RL than in game, it cycles faster, and does so within a sight picture).

The Garrison thing should be goal driven. Figure out what the gameplay goal is, and make the units to achieve that goal.

The current goal seems to be that BDEs are not the major units of the game, just an ability to overstock some areas---every town as a Garrison, add a BDE and it's now 2X strong.

The reality in game is that operational strength (supply) is meaningless much of the time. Serious map movement happens when one side is OP, and supply is not the issue, local population is. A single spawn list the size of a Platoon will lay waste to a 2 AB town of the Platoon is fully manned, but the 2 AB town has 10X fewer defenders.

Getting rid of Garrisons requires larger operational level changes, IMHO. Small garrisons with faster resupply. More BDEs, perhaps, but with slower resupply, and a slower time to move between towns (if you plan an offensive, you better have your BDEs massed).  The goal would be that breakouts are possible, and while a BDE vs Garrison fight would be a foregone conclusion, the damage done to the attacking BDE would matter since resupply would be very slow. People would get stuck in hopeless fights, but that happens anyway, the difference would be that the damage done would matter.

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41 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

This site, Battle Order.  TBH didn't know the site existed until I started looking for some of the old online resources for this information for this thread, and I kept getting cool as heck graphics results.

https://www.battleorder.org/

Cool site!

The only issue is that those are standards, but not what ended up in the field. For the US, SMGs were common, as were M1 carbines, not shown on the chart.

Also, unless the spawn lists were curated via what spawns when, all the good stuff gets burned up first.

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13 minutes ago, tater said:

The inability to fire accurately with some SMGs is a stumbling block to wanting more of them, particularly when others act like rifles, and some of the exact rifles lack capabilities they had (The Enfield is way, way better in RL than in game, it cycles faster, and does so within a sight picture).

 

https://www.facebook.com/jimmy.noonan.10/videos/3419205808154461/

 

this vid is from a military surplus page on facebook , really shows Mp40 not that good a grouper 

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53 minutes ago, tatonka said:

this vid is from a military surplus page on facebook , really shows Mp40 not that good a grouper 

I'll take your word for it, I don't do facebook. That said, I've fired an MP-40, Sten, and Thompson, and of the 3, I preferred the Sten, actually. Other than that, I didn't notice a huge difference, although traditional foregrip furniture is more to my personal taste (habit, likely).

 

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IMO Its not the Garrison supply or its size that's the biggest  issue  but what happens  when you cap the ab....suddenly the people your fighting get  extra supply  at the cp's that are connected to other towns  instead of the dwindling supply  from the garrison.... its a crazy scenario  for the attacker who has drove trucks and captured points to be suddenly faced  with a  magical army   because they've advanced and captured somthing ......the message's "dont cap the AB  untill we've caped  x and y cp" ....leads to some very odd gameplay if you take a bit  to think about it. on both sides.  capturing an ab shouldn't lead to  your enemy  suddenly getting fresh supply's of anything .....from perhaps being down to rifles to suddenly getting  instant fresh supply's of sappers engineers smg...and so on  

and  it shouldn't dictate how you cap a town because of it.  but it does.

Edited by themouse
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18 hours ago, themouse said:

IMO Its not the Garrison supply or its size that's the biggest  issue  but what happens  when you cap the ab....suddenly the people your fighting get  extra supply  at the cp's that are connected to other towns  instead of the dwindling supply  from the garrison.... its a crazy scenario  for the attacker who has drove trucks and captured points to be suddenly faced  with a  magical army   because they've advanced and captured somthing ......the message's "dont cap the AB  untill we've caped  x and y cp" ....leads to some very odd gameplay if you take a bit  to think about it. on both sides.  capturing an ab shouldn't lead to  your enemy  suddenly getting fresh supply's of anything .....from perhaps being down to rifles to suddenly getting  instant fresh supply's of sappers engineers smg...and so on  

and  it shouldn't dictate how you cap a town because of it.  but it does.

Actually it makes sense to me, the locally housed units get kicked out and now surrounding units are on the edge of town fighting in.  From a game perspective gives an enemy a chance to spawn tanks and fight their way out until the last, or go infantry only and the battle becomes more of a meeting engagement as defender tanks rush in.

The smart attacker will look at it as an opportunity to crush several towns of MG at once, at the least making holding the town if won easier and maybe making the next attack more possible.

The only unfair part is if it is an underpop side not able to really lock down those edge depots with inf or arrived tanks.  Like anything else, have to manage the battle and have discipline and foresight, or lose.

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"Ok, do you know if the brig numbers are pegged to historical realities? "

I think you misunderstood my question, Kilemal.  My question was related to Tater's later comments in the sense that is it the policy/purpose/goal, at present, within CRS's intentional design, to make the supply match the percentage and proportion of squads, brigs, divisions, etc, that were in the actual war.

I have seen many comments about such things in the forums over the years but I can't recall if there has been a stated policy.  To me, I like the idea of historical accuracy a great deal.  On the other hand, it is a game.  If we were going by historical accuracy, after you sailed across the Atlantic or the Channel and set foot on enemy territory, and then died, you'd be booted out of the game forever--after all, during the real war, when you died, you did not get to respawn.  There is a tension between these, and I don't think the tension can ever be fully resolved.  But I was interested to know if there was an intention to make the current garrisons, etc, match historical realities.  If so, then the material you provided would be very relevant in helping us move forward with the spawn lists.  If not, then we do what Tater said, "Figure out what the gameplay goal is, and make the units to achieve that goal."

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Keep garrisons, remove the flags. 

Flags keep turtle fest activities during high pop = boring.

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2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Actually it makes sense to me, the locally housed units get kicked out and now surrounding units are on the edge of town fighting in.  From a game perspective gives an enemy a chance to spawn tanks and fight their way out until the last, or go infantry only and the battle becomes more of a meeting engagement as defender tanks rush in.

The smart attacker will look at it as an opportunity to crush several towns of MG at once, at the least making holding the town if won easier and maybe making the next attack more possible.

The only unfair part is if it is an underpop side not able to really lock down those edge depots with inf or arrived tanks.  Like anything else, have to manage the battle and have discipline and foresight, or lose.

but it should be from garrison supply  remember the fb's pop up so the defender can bring in extra supply  but to instantly gain extra supply at the cp,s  is a misnomer  there should be work involved to reorganise as it were... after all the defender has just lost his headquarters.... 

at present  it leads to very strange behaviour  with messages to people in Ab's to stop capping.....and people leaving the ab undefended in the hope it gets capped ...crap I've even done it myself when defending... cheered  when somebody has caped the ab  ...when we've had no supply  knowing we get stuff  

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7 minutes ago, themouse said:

but it should be from garrison supply  remember the fb's pop up so the defender can bring in extra supply  but to instantly gain extra supply at the cp,s  is a misnomer  there should be work involved to reorganise as it were... after all the defender has just lost his headquarters.... 

at present  it leads to very strange behaviour  with messages to people in Ab's to stop capping.....and people leaving the ab undefended in the hope it gets capped ...crap I've even done it myself when defending... cheered  when somebody has caped the ab  ...when we've had no supply  knowing we get stuff  

My guess is the hybrid situation, where you can have both brigades and garrisons, and I'm guessing they can't have the linking attack depot logic for either attack garrisons/brigades without having the defense garrisons/brigades open too.

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5 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

My guess is the hybrid situation, where you can have both brigades and garrisons, and I'm guessing they can't have the linking attack depot logic for either attack garrisons/brigades without having the defense garrisons/brigades open too.

I'm sure you'r right on that...It's probably that way because of the way the code is written,  that thought has crossed my mind  and it's probably not an easy fix 

Edited by themouse

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1 hour ago, pfmosquito said:

"Ok, do you know if the brig numbers are pegged to historical realities? "

I think you misunderstood my question, Kilemal.  My question was related to Tater's later comments in the sense that is it the policy/purpose/goal, at present, within CRS's intentional design, to make the supply match the percentage and proportion of squads, brigs, divisions, etc, that were in the actual war.

I have seen many comments about such things in the forums over the years but I can't recall if there has been a stated policy.  To me, I like the idea of historical accuracy a great deal.  On the other hand, it is a game.  If we were going by historical accuracy, after you sailed across the Atlantic or the Channel and set foot on enemy territory, and then died, you'd be booted out of the game forever--after all, during the real war, when you died, you did not get to respawn.  There is a tension between these, and I don't think the tension can ever be fully resolved.  But I was interested to know if there was an intention to make the current garrisons, etc, match historical realities.  If so, then the material you provided would be very relevant in helping us move forward with the spawn lists.  If not, then we do what Tater said, "Figure out what the gameplay goal is, and make the units to achieve that goal."

My guess is no, certainly have never seen any moves towards that.

 

I devved up a scenario along those lines, where I would load current brigades like divisions, so you would have a fully loaded brigade with, in the case of German panzer divisions, 300+ tanks and several thousand infantry.   Movement would be VERY slow, and resupply tickets would be something like 3-5 days.  So the premium armor and MGs would likely be out in a day or two, and it's rifles and R35s/PzIIs for days.  Real supply numbers would be used, so the Allies would be messed up badly in the air and French AA departments.

French divisions would be surrounded by Axis cap towns to simulate their slow movement and sluggish leadership.

Tier increase would be a month.  If the game makes it to Tier1, the Allies win. 

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an added thought...perhaps  if the  out of town supply to cp.s came in after a time..say 10-15  minutes  after the AB is capped  as you can't cap your own depot....but to offset  the timers the attackers originally face at the start of the battle...sort of holding out until reinforcement arrive objective   

Edited by themouse

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31 minutes ago, themouse said:

an added thought...perhaps  if the  out of town supply to cp.s came in after a time..say 10-15  minutes  after the AB is capped  as you can't cap your own depot....but to offset  the timers the attackers originally face at the start of the battle...sort of holding out until reinforcement arrive objective   

Sure, trickle timers have always been too damn fast.  I've said this for years, brigades move as fast or faster but but trickle timers only start 15m later and stretch over 2 hours, so it's like a whole brigade column is arriving in bits.  I suspect garrisons follow the universal trickle setting, so that combination of 15m/2h completion should work for the defender as well as any brigade move.

 

But boy the howling if it were ever done.....

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18 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Sure, trickle timers have always been too damn fast.  I've said this for years, brigades move as fast or faster but but trickle timers only start 15m later and stretch over 2 hours, so it's like a whole brigade column is arriving in bits.  I suspect garrisons follow the universal trickle setting, so that combination of 15m/2h completion should work for the defender as well as any brigade move.

 

But boy the howling if it were ever done.....

I have either lost you completely or you have lost me.  and i'm not sure witch 

to be clear I meant that when an attacker caps the ab....the cp's linked to defenders towns wouldn't get the instant supply from the other towns  that they do now. just the garrison supply  ...but given the can't cap cp's the already own even if they drive trucks in..to compensate for that. after 10-15 minuets they do get that supply, akin to  you have to wait 10 mins after the ao goes on befor you can cap....and another 10 of keeping cp's befor you can cap the AB 

Edited by themouse

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4 minutes ago, themouse said:

I have either lost you completely or you have lost me.  and i'm not sure witch 

to be clear I meant that when an attacker caps the ab....the cp's linked to defenders towns wouldn't get the instant supply from the other towns  they do now. just the garrison supply  ...but given the can't cap cp's the already own even if they drive trucks in..to compensate for that. after 10-15 minuets they do get that supply, akin to  you have to wait 10 mins after the ao goes on befor you can cap....and another 10 of keeping cp's befor you can cap the AB 

Well, I;m assuming none of us want the attacker to NOT get the linking supply depot spawning so the defense is going to be there too, but I think you can put a trickle timer on when linked spawnables can open up....

Also have to keep in mind underpop in both scenarios, they need to have spawnables be able to open cause they don't have extra people to be driving trucks around for attack OR defense.

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you would still get garrison supply at the cp's  you just wouldn't get the "instant"  re-enforcements  you'd have to wait 10-or 15 minuets  for that. 

 

ps.  I'm not taking into account whats an easy fix  for crs and what isn't........because 1 i don't in reality know...and 2...it doesn't stop it being an aim/goal

Edited by themouse

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The fact that backline towns have free and instant non interdictable supply, provided to a frontline town under attack, is very bad in every way.

Terrible game play and models nothing remotely of real life.

 

The supply isn't moved (flags), isn't brought in (truck/ms) or interdictable.

It is complete magic fairly land, that supply from backline towns can just instantly appear in a front line town; under attack no less.

 

Makes for very gamey play, first, calls of don't cap AB, so they get free extra supply - and defender calling overrun so they DO get all the free supply.

Even worse, there is no way for attackers to open up backline supply to their town, to reinforce their attack.

Capping the enemy AB should not be bad for the attacker, yet it is.

 

Anyone who doesn't recognize this an extremely lousy game feature doesn't play the game much; or doesn't understand it.

 

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1 hour ago, delems said:

The fact that backline towns have free and instant non interdictable supply, provided to a frontline town under attack, is very bad in every way.

Terrible game play and models nothing remotely of real life.

 

The supply isn't moved (flags), isn't brought in (truck/ms) or interdictable.

It is complete magic fairly land, that supply from backline towns can just instantly appear in a front line town; under attack no less.

 

Makes for very gamey play, first, calls of don't cap AB, so they get free extra supply - and defender calling overrun so they DO get all the free supply.

Even worse, there is no way for attackers to open up backline supply to their town, to reinforce their attack.

Capping the enemy AB should not be bad for the attacker, yet it is.

 

Anyone who doesn't recognize this an extremely lousy game feature doesn't play the game much; or doesn't understand it.

 

Ninja attacks on bunkers went from an occasional lucky hit to how most lowpop attacks went...grab a cp and set up the team at the ab cutting the bunker instead of those guys having to cap other and or all cps before the bunker which means more fighting outside the enclosed armybase...,i dont mind the change tbh in high pop fights it brings up fbs were more fighting can happen and gives more chances for a prolonged ao....the bunker is less of a priority early on in the ao and that frees up other players too

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