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tyrdaimp

Remove Garrisons

79 posts in this topic

40 minutes ago, aef said:

Ninja attacks on bunkers went from an occasional lucky hit to how most lowpop attacks went...grab a cp and set up the team at the ab cutting the bunker instead of those guys having to cap other and or all cps before the bunker which means more fighting outside the enclosed armybase...,i dont mind the change tbh in high pop fights it brings up fbs were more fighting can happen and gives more chances for a prolonged ao....the bunker is less of a priority early on in the ao and that frees up other players too

OK BOOMER

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Garrisons are an opportunity to free the brigades. Loose them. Having garrisons in the towns means flags don't have to be. Detach them. Make a big old brigade FMS/mobile FB sort of thing. Make it and associated PPOs persistent til HC moves it. Make the most of those new PPOs that are otw. Let it have associated persistent FMS'. Make it a many tentacled creature slorping across the map (don't know what you call octopus movement). Get the armies out in the field. Loose the brigades! Lay out a secondary road network. Don't show flags on the nme' map. Maneuver, surprise, spearheads! Loose the brigades! 

Consider it an opportunity.

Edited by bigstart

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10 hours ago, aef said:

Ninja attacks on bunkers went from an occasional lucky hit to how most lowpop attacks went...grab a cp and set up the team at the ab cutting the bunker instead of those guys having to cap other and or all cps before the bunker which means more fighting outside the enclosed armybase...,i dont mind the change tbh in high pop fights it brings up fbs were more fighting can happen and gives more chances for a prolonged ao....the bunker is less of a priority early on in the ao and that frees up other players too

It would still be different than before as capturing the ab....doesn't get rid of the the garrison so you can still cap back  cp's and use them I'd go further and say  perhaps you shouldn't  lose anything in town except the ability to spawn at the AB...  if there were extra brigades already in town they don't get bounced  until the whole town is taken (or at a bare minimum the AB and  all the linked CP's ) … It's the Magical influx...and disappearance  of troops that I really think should change.

 

Edited by TheCat
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13 hours ago, delems said:

The fact that backline towns have free and instant non interdictable supply, provided to a frontline town under attack, is very bad in every way.

Terrible game play and models nothing remotely of real life.

 

The supply isn't moved (flags), isn't brought in (truck/ms) or interdictable.

It is complete magic fairly land, that supply from backline towns can just instantly appear in a front line town; under attack no less.

 

Makes for very gamey play, first, calls of don't cap AB, so they get free extra supply - and defender calling overrun so they DO get all the free supply.

Even worse, there is no way for attackers to open up backline supply to their town, to reinforce their attack.

Capping the enemy AB should not be bad for the attacker, yet it is.

 

Anyone who doesn't recognize this an extremely lousy game feature doesn't play the game much; or doesn't understand it.

 

Wouldn't you just have to blow that linking FB to cut the supply off?

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53 minutes ago, jwrona said:

Wouldn't you just have to blow that linking FB to cut the supply off?

you can if there is an fb ..but they still get garrison supply at the cp and while they would loose any fms's from that fb   unlike the attackers fb's  you can't spawn in to defend the fb you've just flipped.... 

 

Edited by TheCat

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6 hours ago, TheCat said:

… It's the Magical influx...and disappearance  of troops that I really think should change.

I find it incredibly ironic that the solution to brigade "warping" involved

(drumroll)

a magical influx of supply.  

 

Silly folks trading one form of magical supply for another.  But yet I haven't seen them complain about this kind of magical supply warping.  How strange.  

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*** It would still be different than before as capturing the ab....doesn't get rid of the the garrison

Exactly, so what if you take one CP, setup bunker and take it now?

The garrison supply still exists in the town at the other CPs, as it should - you just can't use your AB now.


What is so bad, is as is, all the other backline towns can spawn their supply into the town w/o the AB.

Meaning, for all practical measures, and unlimited supply of autos for the defender.

 

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On 2/2/2020 at 5:08 PM, tyrdaimp said:

Garrisons, are just pointless. They kill gameplay in the matter of population.  

Instance, A large city could be understandable,  but the moment a faction captures one sector of a city, they instantly get a full garrison supply.  All while other ends of the city are duking it out.    I believe we should remove Garrisons all together,  if not significantly reduce numbers and timers.

As for large cities, garrisons should not include any heavy weaponry (heavy tanks, bombers,  destroyers, etc)  

Leave the old unit system for actual combat and operations 

I'm sorry you disagree with the implementation, and I am open to hearing about how we can do better, but we are not getting rid of Garrisons, and they serve a purpose. I have outlined to the point of exhaustion as to why that is, and other players here in this thread have spoken most of the obvious points already so I won't re-hash them.

I will say I am a firm believer in consistently seeking improvements, but throwing out something that gives players an opportunity to play during all time zones, regardless if HC officers are online or not, is a far better scenario than what it was from a game management perspective.

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*** Garrisons, are just pointless. They kill gameplay in the matter of population.  

I would disagree, garrisons are a great improvement... not perfect by any means, but much better.

The main issue with them, without any doubt, imo, is when capped the AB - all the garrison town supply in backline towns (and TOE actually) becomes available - that is a lousy game mechanic.

 

As to relative size of garrisons vrs TOE flags, and the number of TOE flags; those can be tweaked;  but the key issue, again imo, is the non interdictable, no flag moved, fairy supply from backline towns once a garrison AB is captured.

 

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The big issue I see is the magic trick of units surging into the Depots from a garrison after a Army Base is captured 

 

While it would be understandable to take the Garrison troops from the Army Base and split them into the few remaining Depots. That way they just dont disappear. Or viseversa with losing a depot and moving it into either another depot or army base. 

Currently if you lose the army base or the depot, those units remain at that facility until recaptured. It's pointless. They dont go anywhere..

Solution 1--

Give every depot / AB a pre set # of units. 

If the depot is captured by the Enemy, -A: the remaining units from the depot move to the AB. Or if the AB is Captured -B: Relocate available units to the next available depot (over stock allowed)

Either way, we shouldn't need Division sized Garrisons in every town. That was the whole purpose of having a division was to move them around where needed... I made another post with improvements for this system to be implemented 

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7 hours ago, tyrdaimp said:

The big issue I see is the magic trick of units surging into the Depots from a garrison after a Army Base is captured 

 

While it would be understandable to take the Garrison troops from the Army Base and split them into the few remaining Depots. That way they just dont disappear. Or viseversa with losing a depot and moving it into either another depot or army base. 

Currently if you lose the army base or the depot, those units remain at that facility until recaptured. It's pointless. They dont go anywhere..

Solution 1--

Give every depot / AB a pre set # of units. 

If the depot is captured by the Enemy, -A: the remaining units from the depot move to the AB. Or if the AB is Captured -B: Relocate available units to the next available depot (over stock allowed)

Either way, we shouldn't need Division sized Garrisons in every town. That was the whole purpose of having a division was to move them around where needed... I made another post with improvements for this system to be implemented 

Yes, this was done intentionally to give defending forces (who are usually the ones underpopulated) the last chance to hold, and it prompts the offensive forces to do their job to secure their gains. In essence, it would keep the battle going. The time it takes to create battles in WWII Online is a bit much, if you think about all of the human effort involved. So just like we made forward bases stronger to keep the battle going, we examined this as another means of holding the line.

We know very clearly what it was like before. Gogogo capture the Army Base!!! POP (AB Captured)! Battle is over. Keep moving rolling! 

Regarding the amount of supply available... a primary objective of this entire Hybrid Supply concept was to stabilize High Command and to refocus them from purely managing flags and controlling the masses, to serving the masses once again and giving the players the ability to not only choose where to fight, but also to ensure that no matter what, with or without HC, sufficient supply would be available to keep the game operational.

We have made some course changes in terms of supply and we remain committed to making logical changes as conditions change. Simply trying to roll the clock back and put a primary emphasis on move-able brigades, without the basic necessity of HC staff levels - knowledge - and effort rising, is a recipe for disaster that would be prohibiting functional gameplay.

It's vital to differentiate between personal preference on how the game should play, and what the reality of conditions are. These changes were not made to penalize anyone or otherwise remove something you enjoyed. It was to make sure we had a functional, in-tact game that could give the playerbase the best chances to play and enjoy the game.

High Command had years and years to get stuff squared away, but the root issue continued to exist: too much workload, on to few volunteers. And it crushed the game when HC officers were not online. If some of you think the only sufficient way to improve game play and infuse HC with more officers is by giving them more control over the masses, I think you're going to be disappointed with my answer and strategy.

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2 hours ago, XOOM said:

Yes, this was done intentionally to give defending forces (who are usually the ones underpopulated) the last chance to hold, and it prompts the offensive forces to do their job to secure their gains. In essence, it would keep the battle going. The time it takes to create battles in WWII Online is a bit much, if you think about all of the human effort involved. So just like we made forward bases stronger to keep the battle going, we examined this as another means of holding the line.

I'm neutral on this. I like the theory behind it and why it was was done, but it sucks when you are fighting an attrition battle. If you are fighting a 1ab garrison town vs a 1ab garrison town, the offense will probably run out of supply if they cap bunker because then the defense get the rest of their garrison plus the linking ones they own depots to. To add to that, it also sucks when you capture an armybase and the town has 3 linking depots worth of supply. 

 

I do suppose its better than just capping the ab and the battle is over and done. I wish maybe you had to use up the current town's garrison supply at the depots before they start getting the backline supply at the depots. 

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@XOOMthe problem with the "defending" side (as you say, typically the underpop side any given moment). is entirely reactive. Supply is a poor analog for relative forces unless the sides are balanced and the fight is prolonged. If both sides were even, and one side has 3ABs each and 3 BDEs vs a single garrison, the outcome is s foregone conclusion.

On one level I dislike the large Garrison forces, on the other side, it doesn't matter. 50 guys beats 10, every time. Since tying AOs to relative pop balance isn't a thing (only allowing AOs based on server pop disparity vs unit strengths), and respawn limits based on the same idea are not a thing (If the OP side is 2:1, then they can only spawn at MSPs or facilities up to those odds relative to local UP player level), then limiting Garrison size, and slowing BDE resupply seems like an interesting idea. Let the defender who will lose anyway be able to at least meaningfully hurt the attackers so an attack can run out of steam after X towns.

Hey, what about Garrisons not being allowed to spawn on attack at all? Ie: Garrisons can place DFMS within a short range of the spawn point only, and thee are no "spawnable" depots in enemy towns from garrison forces, only BDEs? Garrison forces are rear area only, cannot attack, in other words, and if attacking a 3AB town, you have to pile up BDEs to have more supply than the garrison?

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5 minutes ago, tater said:
 
 
 
 
2
2 minutes ago, tater said:

Hey, what about Garrisons not being allowed to spawn on attack at all? Ie: Garrisons can place DFMS within a short range of the spawn point only, and thee are no "spawnable" depots in enemy towns from garrison forces, only BDEs? Garrison forces are rear area only, cannot attack, in other words, and if attacking a 3AB town, you have to pile up BDEs to have more supply than the garrison?

This would be over-engineering and making it difficult for people to access supply. We really need to iron out the mission creation flow, and we have started to help with that (by adding in the automated origin and target). Removing barriers from people getting into the gameplay itself is priority, I think this suggestion might make things a little too complicated to understand, and as our game is already complex, I don't think this would be a welcome change.

I will give you kudos for working towards an idea and a solution, that's much better and appreciated to consider alternative thinking than just pouring gas on a fire with no resolution.

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19 minutes ago, dfiire said:

I do suppose its better than just capping the ab and the battle is over and done. I wish maybe you had to use up the current town's garrison supply at the depots before they start getting the backline supply at the depots. 

Yes, this was the most vital concern, avoiding the AB pop and game over.

We can look at where supply pools draw from in this instance, I think that might help alleviate some concerns here and be considered more "fair" for the attackers.

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6 minutes ago, XOOM said:

This would be over-engineering and making it difficult for people to access supply. We really need to iron out the mission creation flow, and we have started to help with that (by adding in the automated origin and target). Removing barriers from people getting into the gameplay itself is priority, I think this suggestion might make things a little too complicated to understand, and as our game is already complex, I don't think this would be a welcome change.

I will give you kudos for working towards an idea and a solution, that's much better and appreciated to consider alternative thinking than just pouring gas on a fire with no resolution.

Do garrisons have resupply timers (refilling spawn lists, whatever that is called) that are different than BDEs?

Ie: Depots have a smaller spawn list than an AB or FMS has (does an FMS from a depot have a depot spawn list, never paid attention?). What if the garrison depot lists (and ideally MSPs as well) were larger, but had a very, very slow rebuild from the main AB pool. So if you used a Garrison for attack, the spawn list would drain quicker. Capa a spawnable? It gets a garrison spawn list, and supplies slowly. BDE spawns can act as they do now?

I'm looking at a way of getting a functional distinction between the 2 units that doesn't really exist now, with the least effort on the part of you guys---I think unit disparities makes for more interesting play.

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3 hours ago, XOOM said:

We can look at where supply pools draw from in this instance, I think that might help alleviate some concerns here and be considered more "fair" for the attackers.

I would love that. So would other people too imo

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22 minutes ago, dfire said:

I would love that. So would other people too imo

One of the design principles everyone needs to keep in mind is that in order to generate battle you need to incentivize both sides to fight.

The extreme example would be open towns, no AOs, and the effective strategy is rushing each other's towns and not engaging in defensive battle, or the moment defense firms up you leave and rush another town.

The other, competing principle is that you have to avoid boredom, and so there needs to be multiple ways you can win a town.  Sometimes ninja, sometimes precamp, sometimes armor rush, sometimes brutal 1-day Antwerpgrad, sometimes light infantry conquest.  But never ALWAYS the same thing, same way because it's coded that way.

So while in this instance maybe the offense needs a little help in the current paradigm, you don't want to rig it for all offense all the time, or guaranteed no consequences for early 'castle capture' of the AB(s).

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I'd like to add that not long ago we conducted an intermission where Garrisons had very little to any supply in it, and automatic weapons were removed and it was strictly Rifleman and some basic equipment to help conduct operations, like ATG's, AA's, Trucks etc. The total amount of supply was about 1/3 of the brigade supply. The result was a very frustrated community.

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The only thing wrong with the current implementation, again, is the completely unrealistic magic fairy link CPs the defender gets when their AB is captured.

There should be no spawning from backline towns to your frontline town when you lose your bunker, like there is today.

Your choices are to fight with what remains in town (which is still the ENTIRE garrison, just split up in the CPs and no armor) or

Bring dMS in from backline FBs.

 

Unlike TOE flags, capturing the AB does not end the battle like it use to.

All the garrison supply is still there in town, just at the remaining CPs.

 

I'd make flags have 50 to 60% the supply of a garrison.

 

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8 minutes ago, XOOM said:

I'd like to add that not long ago we conducted an intermission where Garrisons had very little to any supply in it, and automatic weapons were removed and it was strictly Rifleman and some basic equipment to help conduct operations, like ATG's, AA's, Trucks etc. The total amount of supply was about 1/3 of the brigade supply. The result was a very frustrated community.

Intermission is not regular play. There's no reason to do anything except fight. I spend 90% of my game time in or around CPs---which I hate---because it needs to be done. I make a point of NEVER entering a CP during intermission.

Any such change has to be organic to the entire operational game. Smaller garrisons, but perhaps with more rapid replenishment. More BDEs on the map, since those are the "real" units, but with slower resupply I would think (and movement taking time to shift BDEs around the map). You can't change 1 little thing during intermission when no one is actually playing the map, and no one even groks the concept.

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38 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

One of the design principles everyone needs to keep in mind is that in order to generate battle you need to incentivize both sides to fight.

The extreme example would be open towns, no AOs, and the effective strategy is rushing each other's towns and not engaging in defensive battle, or the moment defense firms up you leave and rush another town.

The other, competing principle is that you have to avoid boredom, and so there needs to be multiple ways you can win a town.  Sometimes ninja, sometimes precamp, sometimes armor rush, sometimes brutal 1-day Antwerpgrad, sometimes light infantry conquest.  But never ALWAYS the same thing, same way because it's coded that way.

So while in this instance maybe the offense needs a little help in the current paradigm, you don't want to rig it for all offense all the time, or guaranteed no consequences for early 'castle capture' of the AB(s).

The mechanics need to allow for variable play, too. That said, "ninja" and precamp play vs actual units (BDEs) is bizarre, and gives lie to even the concept of a "map level" layer to play, IMO. Vs a garrison? Sure. Vs a BDE? Yeah, not so much.

I hate looking at the chat, and see a report that some town is being set up to be hit, and it needs defenders NOW, meanwhile there's a fight going on in the town I'm in, so I have to chose to stay someplace that might actually be fun right now to set up someplace else was "work" to play the map. Operationally there could be more supply in the town that needs help "now," but in reality it has fewer people, so it is weak.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, delems said:

The only thing wrong with the current implementation, again, is the completely unrealistic magic fairy link CPs the defender gets when their AB is captured.

There should be no spawning from backline towns to your frontline town when you lose your bunker, like there is today.

Your choices are to fight with what remains in town (which is still the ENTIRE garrison, just split up in the CPs and no armor) or

Bring dMS in from backline FBs.

 

Unlike TOE flags, capturing the AB does not end the battle like it use to.

All the garrison supply is still there in town, just at the remaining CPs.

 

I'd make flags have 50 to 60% the supply of a garrison.

 

Hard to Believe but ill agree with delems on this. No change to supply tho. Cant be that hard to code and worth testing.

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