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World War II Online is a Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter based in Western Europe between 1939 and 1943. Through land, sea, and air combat using a ultra-realistic game engine, combined with a strategic layer, in the largest game world ever created - We offer the best WWII simulation experience around.

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tater
4 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Trucks don't and can't drive around town if just 1-2 vehicles, armor cars and light tanks good enough or DFMS with any kind of gun, are out.  The only thing that is making that initial placement possible is the low low EWS for truck only range.  Apply that front line limit to initial FMS placement with no AO and maybe you have something palatable so trucks can't sneak around back before the defense has a chance, but can get into a workable attack position.

If an AO is on and you aren't out flanking with a bare minimum of two DFMS/armor against trucks with their noise and their soft soft skins, you deserve what happens to you.

2 DFMS? Armor? Hard when you're the early responder, and there are already trucks zooming all over. Leave to drive around and look, doesn't matter, they're already set, even if they aren't, you're driving around, and they are already in/near the spawnable waiting. This is all because defenses are almost always reactive (if defenders don't appear until after EWS/AO, it's too late for a real defense, IMO—not effective, but "real," you can have an effective, reactive defense, but a "real defense" would have all the people who might zerg defend a P1 DO after facilities spawn spawning in 10 minutes before the attackers even decide that the town is the next AO. We don't have enough players to do this.

My complaint/rage-quit the other day was in a larger city. We had defenders, but not enough to guard every CP/bunker, AND send out DFMS, AND run multiple armor to chase trucks. It was a hot-drop truck, and facilities would fall faster than we could jog to them (many not spawn facilities). Because in real military operations, the firsy parts of town to fall are factories, etc in the very middle of a city, where the enemy army starts pouring out because of advanced teleporter technology?

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downtown

I was stationed in Germany from 1989 to 1991 and drove many of my friends to Bremen to pick up their New BMW. I think it was January 1991 they got to stop paying to have the American Shatter Resistant Glass installed in their vehicles, because when they became standard in German Vehicles.

Believe me driving down the Autobahn you got to see plenty of instances of people who didn't have shatter resistant windshields.  While I was there the wall came down and the Bahns were suddenly flooded with 80khp Trabaunts.  I don't believe they were outlawed on the Bahns before I left.   I saw on at least two occasions where Semi's had driven right over them.

I'm pointing this out because I've fired many rounds into the front windshield of an Opel and thought at the very least the driver should now be driving around with shards of Glass in his face.

I'm not positive, but I don't believe that it became standard in American Vehicles until 1959, so pretty much a round in the front windshield if not lethal should cause some severe restrictions to the operator.  I would guess that they would be blinded by splinters, perhaps even bleeding out.

To continue to play Mario Andretti after someone firing at you through the front windshield is highly unlikely.

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Kilemall
1 hour ago, tater said:

2 DFMS? Armor? Hard when you're the early responder, and there are already trucks zooming all over. Leave to drive around and look, doesn't matter, they're already set, even if they aren't, you're driving around, and they are already in/near the spawnable waiting. This is all because defenses are almost always reactive (if defenders don't appear until after EWS/AO, it's too late for a real defense, IMO—not effective, but "real," you can have an effective, reactive defense, but a "real defense" would have all the people who might zerg defend a P1 DO after facilities spawn spawning in 10 minutes before the attackers even decide that the town is the next AO. We don't have enough players to do this.

My complaint/rage-quit the other day was in a larger city. We had defenders, but not enough to guard every CP/bunker, AND send out DFMS, AND run multiple armor to chase trucks. It was a hot-drop truck, and facilities would fall faster than we could jog to them (many not spawn facilities). Because in real military operations, the firsy parts of town to fall are factories, etc in the very middle of a city, where the enemy army starts pouring out because of advanced teleporter technology?

Ok, and the attacker FB is not vulnerable to teleporter engineers?  Come on guy, this works both ways.

However I think you are missing a big point- the ONLY reason attacker FMS is getting in all around the town is short range truck only EWS.  When trucks were on the same EWS as all other vehicles, you couldn't get in range of anything before an armor car was on you, nothing got set because EWS pre-AO got the d out TOO early.  That's why the differentiated EWS is in, so at least attacks can setup before instadeath.

Remember, the content generation rule of thumb is that BOTH attacker and defender need a chance.

So, balance it out, do you want the front line effect more then other things?  Fine, but you're going to have to allow for some other attack ability, cause it's a fine edge and the combination of what you guys are asking for ends attacks real quick.  Front line AND ending internal town spawnables is too far down the defense road.

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Kilemall
57 minutes ago, downtown said:

I was stationed in Germany from 1989 to 1991 and drove many of my friends to Bremen to pick up their New BMW. I think it was January 1991 they got to stop paying to have the American Shatter Resistant Glass installed in their vehicles, because when they became standard in German Vehicles.

Believe me driving down the Autobahn you got to see plenty of instances of people who didn't have shatter resistant windshields.  While I was there the wall came down and the Bahns were suddenly flooded with 80khp Trabaunts.  I don't believe they were outlawed on the Bahns before I left.   I saw on at least two occasions where Semi's had driven right over them.

I'm pointing this out because I've fired many rounds into the front windshield of an Opel and thought at the very least the driver should now be driving around with shards of Glass in his face.

I'm not positive, but I don't believe that it became standard in American Vehicles until 1959, so pretty much a round in the front windshield if not lethal should cause some severe restrictions to the operator.  I would guess that they would be blinded by splinters, perhaps even bleeding out.

To continue to play Mario Andretti after someone firing at you through the front windshield is highly unlikely.

I doubt they are modeling glass shatter on opels OR allied trucks.  Glass isn't particularly modeled well in buildings either. 

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TEX64

I am about to toter off to bed while reading this thread . . . .

We have to give the attacker the latitude to attack from multiple angles or using ruses or techniques to confuse the enemy otherwise you are asking the attackers to be forced into a monolithic conga-line of men and equipment which pads the defenders stats and heavily discourages the use of WW2OL's greatest strengths which is a huge sandbox to do as you wish, attack/defend as you wish.

In some of the large cities they are captured in zones ; meaning the defender can maintain ownership but the attacker has a ZOC over a particular section, iirc.  I understand the frustration of a few motivated individuals capping depots deep within a city but that's been an issue since 2001. 

You could have each section of a city divided into for example 4 ZOCs (E/W/N/S) and if a city is large enough to have a substantial city 'center' you would have a circular/hexagonal ZOC that touches all the remaining ZOCs and is UNCAPPABLE until at least TWO city ZOCs are owned by the attacker. 

For spawning purposes, the ATTACKING commander must declare a mini-AO (Axis assault ZOC A in Town X) - nothing terribly unusual or exciting about that BUT maybe if sufficient peeps join the mission it triggers the system to allow a SECOND mini-AO at Town X where the ATTACKING commander selects ANOTHER ZOC to assault and spawn from once captured.  None of this info is available to the DEFENDING forces - why should it?  There MUST be an element of suprise.

Once two ZOCs are ATTACKER owned, no matter the mission population, the third mini-AO becomes available.  Does he strike for the city center or another ZOC; further enveloping the city?

If all ZOCs are ATTACKER owned, the city center LOSES supply links and only has X number of troops/equipment to spawn from their remaining depots (not all remaining non-attrited units).  This accurately depicts the lack of  cohesive forces to repel a successful attack once encircled. 

If an attacker has been successful and 100% encircled his opponent - history shows that a VERY HIGH percentage of those battles end with the defenders defeat.  There may be a break-out from the encirclement (EX:  The DEFENDING forces recap a ZOC - allowing X% of non-attrited units to become available at an FB - NOT available for immediate spawning at the newly acquired ZOC.)  The defender cannot magically have a 180^ reversal of fortunes without having to remass available units at an FB and counter-attack to retake their town. 

There HAS to be consequences for LOSING critical areas.  It just like losing or allowing your enemy to gain the high ground . . . you can't [censored] about being suppressed by heavy fire into your AB or spawnable depots from hull-down armor when you either neglected to defend or were forced off the high ground.  There will be 'winners' and 'losers' in any contest.   We ALL want to win but I think most of us enjoy a good slugging match win/lose/draw, too. :)

I do agree the present gamer has a great deal of recon information with which to react and determine the current battlefield situation (the anti-fog of war for sure) but I'm not sure the elimination of skulls, removal of icons, etc is good for the overall game.  Technically, we should all be stumbling around with no voice comms and following the familiar colored uniform while desperately trying to stay 'alive' so we don't have to run 2km just to get back into the fight.  

You want to get really twisted?  Someone recently suggested that we eliminate ground contact reports so they are no longer visible to the pilots mission maps UNLESS appropriately marked by a ground-based liaison trooper.  This means that without that specific target location EA will have to personally recon over a hot area - encouraging more flak or enemy fighter interdiction.  I very much appreciate the skill and passion of our pilots in game but ground-based units can't engage fast moving targets and win - the best they can hope for is a trade.  Anyway, that leads to another rant . . . LOL!

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downtown
13 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I doubt they are modeling glass shatter on opels OR allied trucks.  Glass isn't particularly modeled well in buildings either. 

When I drive I am quite frequently killed by a Heer firing one round from a rifle at my Bedford or Laffly, but Opels will ignore a full burst in the face from a LMG.  They seem to be modeled with Armor Glass.  Glass Shatter may not be modeled, but there should be some level of parity.  An aimed shot at the driver through the front windshield should be fairly devastating. 

I set up ambushes along the road and have fired two full magazines into an oncoming opel from a .30 caliber machine gun and then two more as it drives by, it effectively ignores 120 rounds.  I often will get in other shots as it drives off, I know I see hits, but can't say they have the same effect as the first burst aimed at the driver.

13 hours ago, Kilemall said:

However I think you are missing a big point- the ONLY reason attacker FMS is getting in all around the town is short range truck only EWS.  When trucks were on the same EWS as all other vehicles, you couldn't get in range of anything before an armor car was on you, nothing got set because EWS pre-AO got the d out TOO early.  That's why the differentiated EWS is in, so at least attacks can setup before instadeath.

I have long promoted leaving some range of notification of EWS for the truck, but something should be done about the vehicle sound, you should be able to use the terrain to mask the sound of your vehicle, using hills, treets, etc.. should diffuse the sound your of your vehicle which would allow you to bring it in closer if you used the terrain to mask your approach.   Cut the sound of the Truck back by at least 1/2 and then let hills and trees block or deflect or obscure the sound getting to the enemy.  You should not be able to clearly hear a vehicle masked by a hill, masked by a wood, masked by a valley. 

Regardless of whether or not CRS can model the ability of the terrain to mask the sound of the vehicle, they should still cut the sound detection range of trucks in 1/2.

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Kidd27
1 hour ago, downtown said:

When I drive I am quite frequently killed by a Heer firing one round from a rifle at my Bedford or Laffly, but Opels will ignore a full burst in the face from a LMG.  They seem to be modeled with Armor Glass.  Glass Shatter may not be modeled, but there should be some level of parity.  An aimed shot at the driver through the front windshield should be fairly devastating. 

I set up ambushes along the road and have fired two full magazines into an oncoming opel from a .30 caliber machine gun and then two more as it drives by, it effectively ignores 120 rounds.  I often will get in other shots as it drives off, I know I see hits, but can't say they have the same effect as the first burst aimed at the driver.

I have long promoted leaving some range of notification of EWS for the truck, but something should be done about the vehicle sound, you should be able to use the terrain to mask the sound of your vehicle, using hills, treets, etc.. should diffuse the sound your of your vehicle which would allow you to bring it in closer if you used the terrain to mask your approach.   Cut the sound of the Truck back by at least 1/2 and then let hills and trees block or deflect or obscure the sound getting to the enemy.  You should not be able to clearly hear a vehicle masked by a hill, masked by a wood, masked by a valley. 

Regardless of whether or not CRS can model the ability of the terrain to mask the sound of the vehicle, they should still cut the sound detection range of trucks in 1/2.

I believe you ask too much of the game to create landscape that simulates sound dampening. 

All trucks can shut off engines and coast. using the road or going downhill can allow trucks to silently slide into min. distance for fms. Cutting sound and creating Ninja trucks isnt a good idea.

FACT- All trucks die to one bullet to the lone driver's head. You can also take off wheels and blow the engine all of which negates its FMS deployment capabilities.

If the opel in your fable was able to carry on and deploy; then you missed. Period. 120 misses.

 

 

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tater
20 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Ok, and the attacker FB is not vulnerable to teleporter engineers?  Come on guy, this works both ways.

My deploy rules would go from the spawn point of the unit setting the FMS, both ways. The distance would be designed to be below the FB-town range, and/or would have a no-go zone around the FB just like it has around any other facility.

Indeed, I'd be inclined to shorten the ranges enough that the FMS max range for each side (attacker and defender) don't overlap. If a town/FB range is 3km, then the may FMS deployment range might in fact be closer to 1.25 km from the spawn point (1.25 km towards town from the FB, 1.25 km away from town for the DFMS, with 500m between them).

The trouble is retconing the existing paradigm to something decent, vs starting over. The whole thing is awful and needs to go, IMO.

So within the current system, what could be done?

Use the new PPOs (trench/bunkers/etc) as a way to add a heavy MSP (all ATGs). The heavy MSP would have limited deploy range from the town/FB designed to not usually overlap from offense to defense (might happen a few towns because of map weirdness). 1.5-2km from the setting unit's spawn point. We'd take the FRU concept (that's the "walking" MSP name, right?) and have a spawn range from that unit's spawn point. Which in this case would be the HMSP. This would be a certain unit who could place a FMS, but only some hundreds of meters away from the spawn point (the HMSP, already ~1.5km from the FB on attack). Now you have a FMS where they would be now on attack. the boxes "FRU" type MSP places by HC could still be a thing, with a still more limited deploy range from the HC guy's spawn point. To get max range from the FB on attack, you first set the HMSP, then set a FMS by a unit spawned at the HMSP, then spawn a HC at the FMS, and move the FRU forward.

Something like this seems doable, and the EWS doesn't likely even go off until the FMS stage or so. The plus for defense is that it can move out of town (easily kill HC FRU, then harder to kill FMS, still harder HMSP) perhaps sooner. The plus for attack is that there is some defense in depth of yuor jumping off point. If the FRU gets nailed, people respawning start coming from the FMS, instead, just a few hundred meters back.

Again, spitballing.

20 hours ago, Kilemall said:

However I think you are missing a big point- the ONLY reason attacker FMS is getting in all around the town is short range truck only EWS.  When trucks were on the same EWS as all other vehicles, you couldn't get in range of anything before an armor car was on you, nothing got set because EWS pre-AO got the d out TOO early.  That's why the differentiated EWS is in, so at least attacks can setup before instadeath.

A huge part of the problem, IMHO, is the utterly absurd offroad speed of vehicles, particularly trucks.

Honestly, the offroad speed where wheeled vehicles start breaking wheels off should be reduced by a factor of perhaps 4 (and that is actually being generous). That alone would solve even the on-sides issue with no other changes. Sure, you could set an FMS on the wrong side of town, but you'd have to drive a noisy truck there at slightly faster than a jog. This would mean that in normal play you'd have trucks racing down actual roads, then turning offroad closer to town to make lateral moves. Else longer attack set up times (which is fine, as defenses can prepare). Note that all wheeled vehicles would have offroad speeds altered, the armored cars might be better than trucks, but would not be racing as they do now, either.

 

20 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Remember, the content generation rule of thumb is that BOTH attacker and defender need a chance.

Absolutely, but a chance for what, exactly?

Step 1, define what an "attack" should generally feel like vs an actual unit in a town (assume possible Garrison changes such that a unit is a BDE emplaced in a town to defend it)? Should it even be possible (much less likely) that a handful of troops could ever take the town with hardly a shot fired?

I'd suggest that an "attack" against a unit (BDE) should usually (not always) be a situation where the attacker has to fight to get into town in the first place. Not a situation where the attacker gets half the town for granted, then the fight is in the town.

Maybe depots even for the defender have a very small spawn list. That way the attacker knows that they can deplete the local defense at a CP, and further defense must come from the AB.

When the Allies have the numbers (map success is nothing but side numbers, ever, as far as I can tell), I think "attacks" are boring, withthe fun bit being racking up kills as the hapless defenders have no choice but to run out to recap, and our superior numbers mean I can find a good spot and mow them down on the rare cases I'm not stuck guarding some CP. Sometimes I'll spawn at a hilltop FMS just to enjoy "attacking" a town without having to do any CQB at all. I've observed some of the most fun I have had was just out of town with aggressive spawning from a FMS meeting an aggressive defense. Fun as the attacker, or the defender. Guys spreading out along berms/treelines, popping smoke and suppressive fire to try and advance...

20 hours ago, Kilemall said:

So, balance it out, do you want the front line effect more then other things?  Fine, but you're going to have to allow for some other attack ability, cause it's a fine edge and the combination of what you guys are asking for ends attacks real quick.  Front line AND ending internal town spawnables is too far down the defense road.

I want the front feeling most of all, frankly. I think it gives the feel of fighting together on a side much more than homogeneously mixed friend and foe throughout town (current play 90% of the time).

If there are troops in rear areas, that's what paras are for!

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Dre21
8 hours ago, downtown said:

When I drive I am quite frequently killed by a Heer firing one round from a rifle at my Bedford or Laffly, but Opels will ignore a full burst in the face from a LMG.  They seem to be modeled with Armor Glass.  Glass Shatter may not be modeled, but there should be some level of parity.  An aimed shot at the driver through the front windshield should be fairly devastating. 

I set up ambushes along the road and have fired two full magazines into an oncoming opel from a .30 caliber machine gun and then two more as it drives by, it effectively ignores 120 rounds.  I often will get in other shots as it drives off, I know I see hits, but can't say they have the same effect as the first burst aimed at the driver.

I have long promoted leaving some range of notification of EWS for the truck, but something should be done about the vehicle sound, you should be able to use the terrain to mask the sound of your vehicle, using hills, treets, etc.. should diffuse the sound your of your vehicle which would allow you to bring it in closer if you used the terrain to mask your approach.   Cut the sound of the Truck back by at least 1/2 and then let hills and trees block or deflect or obscure the sound getting to the enemy.  You should not be able to clearly hear a vehicle masked by a hill, masked by a wood, masked by a valley. 

Regardless of whether or not CRS can model the ability of the terrain to mask the sound of the vehicle, they should still cut the sound detection range of trucks in 1/2.

That Downtown goes both ways , my favorite is always when I'm a Opel and 1 Ei shows up at the FB and I drive away making sure my a$s is pointing at the FB where the EI just came from and he keeps shooting at me and he manages to punch through 2 wooden boards that make up the truck bed and then through the rear windshield to kill my driver. Happens about as often as me putting 2 drums of LMG onto a Laffy or Beddy or Morris and he serves away and still goes to town and sets a FMS.

These will be the mysterious things about this game we will never understand. 

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tater

Yeah, I'm sure that truck survivability is a 2 way street. I have a Murphy's law thing going on myself, I can do what I see other trucks do, speed around town so I'm a crossing taregt at max speed, and every %$#@% time I am killed with a single rifle shot. I've emptied an M1 into Opels, reloaded, and done it again while they are setting. Still they set. Smoke, etc coming out. Ugh.

All trucks are too fast, though. Offroad speed should be massively reduced, then true ATV versions can be slightly faster (but still slow compared to now).

Seriously, a large reduction in truck speed would do a lot towards making the incessant 360 attacks less of a thing without having to add any artificial "deploy rules."

In cities... that's still a problem, frankly.

Re: Moling

I wonder if a simple change could be to add a spawn point to all facilities? Not a special building. Say a factory/RR/farm/whatever has a squad of inf in the spawn list (1 AT weapon, 1 LMG, 1 SMG, and 8 rifles. If it has a building like the RR stations, inf spawns there (a few random spots in the building). Factories? In one of the huge buildings if it has those, in a smaller one if it doesn't.

Might require 2 people to cap things, one to cap, the other to spawn camp/cut. That would seriously mitigate moling alone. Also, you could check far sides of town without having to drive a truck (which the mole hears, and simply goes elsewhere).

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Kilemall

The way of Mole Fu is a path to enlightenment.

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dijpa

without link town spawn depots, its unlikely attackers would ever take towns. The old days of driving a truck full of troops are gone. We live in a different world now where people are used to using their mobile phone to order a takeaway! , they want instant gratification and they're unlikely to be encouraged to drive or sit on a truck for 20 minutes of zero activity only to get strafed by a 109 at their destination.

I dont see anything wrong with spawn depots, I do have a problem with a single infantry being able to capture one on his own, and being rewarded with a spawn supply of smgs and atgs etc. Attackers should reap what they sow. Cap a spawnable with the bare minimum of attackers, then receive a spawn supply that reflects that. If they put more effort in and cap with 5-6 inf and they have armour in support, then reward them for their effort and give them more supply in the spawn.

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hardcase
Posted (edited)

I played from the very beginning..when soldiers were behind their trucks, forest would crash you if you flew and looked at them, you could fall through the earth in the purple death forever, smgs and lugers fired backwards, staying hooked with your 88s was a task in itself, when you could put 50 paras in the 52..(still a good idea). The biggest complaint was the time it took to get to battle...every addition was designed for the purpose of making the game more attractive to newbies....still think PPOs should need more than one engineer to build them...it will get very gamed soon.

 

Put a Yugo in the outside lane of the Autobahn and watch the lights flash and fun begin.

 

Hard

Edited by hrdcse
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