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Kilemall

Highpop Advantage NOT Okay

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catfive
On 4/13/2020 at 2:36 AM, tater said:

What difference does the total AOs make? If one side is massively OP, then boo hoo, they are forced to serially roll towns 1 at a time?

I don't see how that changes anything.

it does reduce the number of towns they can basically softcap at once but they will still as you say cap a lot of towns in minimal time

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Silky
1 hour ago, catfive said:

Capping an AB before you own all depots means any enemy link depots immediately become available with full depot lists of SMGs which an overpop side will flood from and lib, recapping their AB last to bounce your AO. How does that benefit an underpop side?

It's less of an advantage since Garrisons, as the key reward would have been bouncing the Brigade. The supply available to defenders isn't really an issue if we're talking about extreme low pop defenders, since the number of infantry in the field is the key factor and attrition of inf trying to recap isn't.

My support for this concept lies in the way an underpop attack plays out in practice - sneak inf into town, usually less than 5 attackers. EWS trips and no defenders respond. The first time hugely overpop defenders spawn is once a depot is capped, and then you'll usually have a couple of defenders spawn in and overpower the attackers nullifying the attack. The underpop attack can't seek to do anything meaningful. Capping a spawn is the primary target but so often, so what? Cap it and you're still able to muster such a small number of attackers that it's incredibly unlikely you'll get anywhere near holding the CP for the 10 minutes for the AB to become hot. There's almost zero achievable objective. Reducing the 10 minute contested-to-ABs-hot timer at least put the objective of bouncing the brigade on the table

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catfive

the brigade bounces into a link and its inf supply is then available as a second spawn list to the overpop defender in the link depot. the only time it is a good idea to cap an AB early is when you have the pop advantage on site to shut down enemy link depots before they can flood their now 1x/2x/3x smg/semi auto/auto rifles/RPG inf. This is something proven day in, day out in game. Those who cap ABs early, especially aginst an overpop enemy side, lose their spawnables. MSs and AOs fast when the overpop flood from link depots.

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Silky
31 minutes ago, catfive said:

the brigade bounces into a link and its inf supply is then available as a second spawn list to the overpop defender in the link depot. the only time it is a good idea to cap an AB early is when you have the pop advantage on site to shut down enemy link depots before they can flood their now 1x/2x/3x smg/semi auto/auto rifles/RPG inf. This is something proven day in, day out in game. Those who cap ABs early, especially aginst an overpop enemy side, lose their spawnables. MSs and AOs fast when the overpop flood from link depots.

Oh, it's not a question of the attack succeeding, in terms of taking the town. If you're outnumbered 1:5 the chances of that happening are almost zero, however the mechanics play out, and possibly rightly so. But in terms of changing the state of the game - even momentarily - it can be hugely important. If you were able to bounce the unit, giving the underpop side a fractional look at suppressing a single depot to take the town, you offer a glimmer of hope. And you'd certainly draw a load more overpop attackers who'd otherwise be rolling town after town off to hold that depot and look to recover the town. And in that change, that shift of focus and momentum - however fleeting - you make the life of the underpop side a little more pleasing. 

That would be my ambition in these mechanic changes - change how it feels to play underpop.

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stankyus
On 4/7/2020 at 4:27 PM, B2K said:

Not sure if you're aware as it's a fairly recent (ish) change - The number of available AO's is based on the lower pop side.  Given the population fluctuations that occur during the course of any time period, I'm not sure that tying AO placement to supply situations would be very feasible. 

Something not working then, 7 ppl allied side, two AOS past Sunday. 

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Poker
3 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Something not working then, 7 ppl allied side, two AOS past Sunday. 

There’s been a minimum 2 AO limit since 1.36 was released Stanky. Manual here.

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stankyus
On 4/8/2020 at 1:04 PM, redoak84 said:

I'm not say it's wrong, I'm just saying up until the tiger and stugG, the allies have an armor advantage. I'd be surprised if a pz4d can one shot a chars frontal armor, but I have no experience in that. The matty is practically indestructible. I think I'm managed to kill one once with 50mm shots to its turret ring, but german early armor is nothing to write home about. I find that the Axis team has become very adept at destroying allied tanks as soon as possible with satchels and atgs because once they start to pile up we get overwhelmed.

So basically t-0, however that ONLY applies to the BEF. let's not forget the pzH and pak 38 are supior to anything the French have. T-1 ATM balances the BEF, and the French tanks, but not the atgs. Matter of fact the French get a paltry 47mm atg increase and no 57mm. The BEF does not see the 6pdr till t2. There is zero advantage the allies have outside t0 with the exception of getting zooks in t2. Name a tank, plane, infantry kit, ammo or atg beyond t0 and zoom that is an advantage each tier?

 

 

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stankyus
19 minutes ago, Poker said:

There’s been a minimum 2 AO limit since 1.36 was released Stanky. Manual here.

Hence why we lost three towns in an hour. Lost one town on defense in another town, the Axis started taking another, lost the town we were defending and switched to the town under attack down to AB, barracks camped and could not push out, down to 4 ppl. Lost AB, logged. Not working. IIRC 15 towns lost in total. 2ao min... is nothing more than when we did not require AOs. Same result during low pop.

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foe2
5 hours ago, Poker said:

There’s been a minimum 2 AO limit since 1.36 was released Stanky. Manual here.

That was done away with poker, when it basically multiplied the tz3 roll.

However it feels as if the threshold for the so limits has been lowered.

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dre21
5 hours ago, stankyus said:

So basically t-0, however that ONLY applies to the BEF. let's not forget the pzH and pak 38 are supior to anything the French have. T-1 ATM balances the BEF, and the French tanks, but not the atgs. Matter of fact the French get a paltry 47mm atg increase and no 57mm. The BEF does not see the 6pdr till t2. There is zero advantage the allies have outside t0 with the exception of getting zooks in t2. Name a tank, plane, infantry kit, ammo or atg beyond t0 and zoom that is an advantage each tier?

 

 

I'll give you the Brit ATR kills pretty much every Axis tank if you get close enough. That's on top of the Sapper and ATS you guys get.

Let's take both scout cars both can kill pretty much every Axis Tank, even had one Allied player tout that he still goes on a tear even at this tier.  232 kills the A13 and the scout cars thats about it . In a freak incident they get credit for something heavier. 

Plane, I think there is a reason why Axis call it hackfire, dmg model it needs to be fixed, from what I hear hardest plane to take down .

Maybe the reason why Allies push that Brit AF are all over the map and not just in the north sector. 

DB7 and Douglas , take ton of dmg and out fly, speed 109s , not like the slow bumblebee JU87 and the I'm a flame 111.

I'll take a ATG mounted on a Truck , it's fun to play with and no tow required to get around and it's the 47mm to boot kills pretty much any Axis tank.

I'll leave it by these few . You asked .

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Poker

Thanks foe, I didn’t recall this happening.

EDIT: it’s here. Also seems that there was some work on AO’s and player limits around the same time.

Edited by Poker

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stankyus
2 hours ago, dre21 said:

I'll give you the Brit ATR kills pretty much every Axis tank if you get close enough. That's on top of the Sapper and ATS you guys get.

Let's take both scout cars both can kill pretty much every Axis Tank, even had one Allied player tout that he still goes on a tear even at this tier.  232 kills the A13 and the scout cars thats about it . In a freak incident they get credit for something heavier. 

Plane, I think there is a reason why Axis call it hackfire, dmg model it needs to be fixed, from what I hear hardest plane to take down .

Maybe the reason why Allies push that Brit AF are all over the map and not just in the north sector. 

DB7 and Douglas , take ton of dmg and out fly, speed 109s , not like the slow bumblebee JU87 and the I'm a flame 111.

I'll take a ATG mounted on a Truck , it's fun to play with and no tow required to get around and it's the 47mm to boot kills pretty much any Axis tank.

I'll leave it by these few . You asked .

The German ATR best penetration Of all three.... t-0 - fact, not omg, I died to an ATR.

All scout cars trumped by any tank in the game... why even bring it up?  However pan and Vicki t-0.

Havoc, no Axis equivalent, that's like me saying the Axis has the best Dive bomber and best heavy bomber and it's supposed to mean something other than pointing out the allies don't have either. Havoc T-0. But you will get the JU88 very soon... and the Allies be like.. The Axis have the best heavy bomber.. ::roll eyes::

Wakky t-0 - only type in its class. Kinda like the stugB.. no allied equivalents. 

i asked what allied advantage beyond t0... you are bringing up "advantages" in t0. We might find one or two, but that is going to be compartmentalized. Like the earlier zook entrance... 

 

 

 

 

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dre21

Did you not read? Scout car kills pretty much all tiers of Axis Armor well beyond tier 0 , 232 kills the A13 and maybe a few other t0 tanks and that's it. If you can't see the advantage there then I can't help you and we don't need to talk about it anymore. Besides the engine off and roll down hill forever is a clear advantage too to just roll silently into position .

Also BEF ATR kills pretty much all Axis Armor after tier 0 besides a few . Tell me please how many Allied tanks the Axis ATR kills. I can pull up Parasit sapoer guide I'm sure it's a whole lot less .

 

 

You over look the Spitfire , nothing to say there?

You asked I answered now you don't like the answers sorry can't help ya there.

Don't like it don't ask 

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Kilemall
17 hours ago, Poker said:

There’s been a minimum 2 AO limit since 1.36 was released Stanky. Manual here.

Relaxed spawn timers and 1 AO, or vicious spawn timers and 2 AO.  NOT relaxed spawn timers AND 2 AOs. 

Breaks the whole point of having AO limits based on the defender pop.

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stankyus
21 hours ago, dre21 said:

Did you not read? Scout car kills pretty much all tiers of Axis Armor well beyond tier 0 , 232 kills the A13 and maybe a few other t0 tanks and that's it. If you can't see the advantage there then I can't help you and we don't need to talk about it anymore. Besides the engine off and roll down hill forever is a clear advantage too to just roll silently into position .

Also BEF ATR kills pretty much all Axis Armor after tier 0 besides a few . Tell me please how many Allied tanks the Axis ATR kills. I can pull up Parasit sapoer guide I'm sure it's a whole lot less .

 

 

You over look the Spitfire , nothing to say there?

You asked I answered now you don't like the answers sorry can't help ya there.

Don't like it don't ask 

Scout cars kill tanks... yes, that happens but how is that an advantage? Armor? Gun?  Any tank in any teir can kill the scout car.. thats not an advantage.  An advantage would be something superior.  

Spitfire?  Do they not go up against competition?  Mb you mean the 190 in T1, .. What area beyond T-0 do the allies have an advantage?

 

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delems

*** Scout cars kill tanks... yes, that happens but how is that an advantage?

Lol, you have to be kidding?

Lets see, panny and dac armor kills so far 527.

232 armor kills so far 60.

Really, 8.8x better kill ratio?  And I'm including the light armor, if we took that out, probably be double that.

Pretty sure armored cars are a devastatingly huge advantage for allies.

 

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dre21
4 hours ago, stankyus said:

Scout cars kill tanks... yes, that happens but how is that an advantage? Armor? Gun?  Any tank in any teir can kill the scout car.. thats not an advantage.  An advantage would be something superior.  

Spitfire?  Do they not go up against competition?  Mb you mean the 190 in T1, .. What area beyond T-0 do the allies have an advantage?

 

If you don't see how that is an advantage then so be it . We can't help ya there. You always say every tank can kill the scout car, yes it can ,but the scout car can also kill every Tank . 232 can't with that it's an advantage and you guys can keep killing with them as the tier goes up , 232 becomes a FMS, CP surpression tool nothing more.

Spit dmg model ever hear of it? If the Spit is not an advantage then it be fine just in the north sector right? Cause then the French planes should be sufficient. 

 

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shagher
  • Allie armor superiority is undeniable. 1 incoming shot and  death is most common outcome, even by lower calibers.
  •  Piat / zook 1 tier before Axis... 
  •  PIAT shoots laying down, saw it twice.. Schreck denied that possibility...
  • Matty... Well... Axis sapper not allowed to sap them if they move... 
  • Air... 
  • Mobil AA guns armored... Axis given convertibles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

  • Axis better Assault rifle with Fj42 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pop...?  People's choice... Not imposed on players. Now that's good!

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jwilly
3 hours ago, shagher said:
  • Piat / zook 1 tier before Axis... 

The Panzerschreck arriving one tier later than the bazooka is a CRS attempt to model the historical fact that the idea for the panzerschreck was based on examination of captured bazookas.

Quote
  • PIAT shoots laying down, saw it twice.. Schreck denied that possibility...

The propulsion of the PIAT round was by a combination of a giant spring, and what amounted to a large blank shotgun shell. So, when it was fired prone, the shooter didn't have a safety issue with a backblast.

The propulsion of both the bazooka's and the panzerfaust's rounds was by a quick-burning rocket that shot a fiery backblast out of the tube back. If the shooter was prone with his legs too close to straight back, those legs would be burned, and the shooter would die. To fire from prone with either of those weapons, the shooter had to lay at a ninety degree angle, bent at the waist. 

CRS can't model such a bent infantry position at this point. So, the bazooka and panzerfaust both have to be fired from kneeling or standing. 

The difference is based on realism, plus modeling limitations. 

 

Quote
  • Mobil AA guns armored... Axis given convertibles.

That's a bogus objection. Neither model has a significantly protected gun crew. Both models are readily killable with early weapons, or anything later.

The valid objection would be that the Germans fielded the SdKfz 7/1 in the Battle of France, i.e. T0, but the British didn't field the Crusader-chassis-mounted Bofors until 1944, i.e. T3. The only SPAA fielded by the Allies in 1940 were (British) a few old Vickers-chassis-mount two pounder Vickers pom-poms, and some Bedford-truck-mounted single Oerlikon 20mms; and (French) some Hotchkiss multiple-HMG and single-20mm HTs; similar weapons on AWD truck chassis's; and perhaps a few heavy-truck-mounted single- and double-Hotchkiss 25mm naval mount guns.

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jwrona
On 4/7/2020 at 7:41 PM, milo said:

What about limiting the number of forward mobile spawns?

But that would ruin the fun of me jumping on every mission without an attack FMS and making one. *sigh*

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saffroli
On 4/7/2020 at 6:04 PM, jwilly said:

Because a large percentage of players want to be on the winning side, a causative relationship between larger population and winning is a positive feedback loop.

 

I really don't think its such a large number of players. I think for what winning causes as a positive feedback loop, losing causes as a negative one.

So you could easily replace " a large percentage of players want to be on the winning side"

With ---                                  " a large percentage of players don't want to be on the losing side"

Would you pack up and not log back in if you're losing? If so, you're no "better" than someone who only plays on the winning team.

In regards to over-pop having both capture timers nerfed *and* SD is silly. It should be one or the other. Just tonight we were overpop, struggled in our AO and they had our DO [Albert] down to AB by 1 maybe 2 guys who capped all the CP's within a few minutes, meanwhile recappers are taking something like over 5 minutes to re-cap and consolidate, meanwhile ei can just wait til everyone gets bored and simul cap again.

If it's done correctly with how over-pop gets shafted now with the cap timers, you can actually abuse it as the low-pop side, provided its over-pop by a decent margin and the town you're capping is small enough.

Edited by saffroli
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bus0
10 hours ago, dre21 said:

If you don't see how that is an advantage then so be it . We can't help ya there. You always say every tank can kill the scout car, yes it can ,but the scout car can also kill every Tank . 232 can't with that it's an advantage and you guys can keep killing with them as the tier goes up , 232 becomes a FMS, CP surpression tool nothing more.

Spit dmg model ever hear of it? If the Spit is not an advantage then it be fine just in the north sector right? Cause then the French planes should be sufficient. 

 

That shows me you've never flown FAF planes, the BB 50's are wonderbar. Lets not get into the Jet/jabo AP fun factor. As to the damage model that's a moot point, CRS knows about it and its not an advantage pilots use. RTB'ing stuff is over rated, there's always more stuff around.

Primary role of a 'scout car' is to scout, is anything stopping the 232 from scouting, it is after all a 'SCOUTING' vehicle. Suppression aka camping is a bonus just like pan/dac killing your armor. Don't mix there primary and secondary role's.

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dre21
2 hours ago, bus0 said:

That shows me you've never flown FAF planes, the BB 50's are wonderbar. Lets not get into the Jet/jabo AP fun factor. As to the damage model that's a moot point, CRS knows about it and its not an advantage pilots use. RTB'ing stuff is over rated, there's always more stuff around.

Primary role of a 'scout car' is to scout, is anything stopping the 232 from scouting, it is after all a 'SCOUTING' vehicle. Suppression aka camping is a bonus just like pan/dac killing your armor. Don't mix there primary and secondary role's.

I suck as a fighter pilot so the results are pretty much the same no matter which fighter I sit in.

Funny how the dmg model is a moot point just because CRS knows about it. It doesn't stop Allies to sprinkle them all over the map for that exact point.  If you are telling yourself something else you are lying to yourself. So with that it's an Advantage. 

2nd you guys can't come into the Forum cry about Historical accuracy , 3H , pak38 , Tiger , FG42.   But then insist that the Spit can be stationed all over Mainland Europe. Please show me a Allied AF in tier 0 in real life that had Spits stationed, you can't cause they were in England not in France or Belgium or Holland . 

Either it works both ways or not at all .

Not to mention that you guys get to sprinkle BEF forces all over the map too again an Advantage but again you guys come in and demand Historical accuracy.

To the Scout cars , Stanly wanted to know which tier 0 is an advantage in later tiers , The Dac and Pan are cause they can still kill pretty much kill every armor Axis have going up the tiers . So in other words why roll out the good stuff if tier 0 will do and if loose it we still got the other stuff , Axis can't that 232 3f and 38T are pretty much useless once we climb tiers ( 38T might be able to hold its own a bit if set up in advance)

Again it was asked , what role each vehicle  played in real life doesn't matter unless you want to bring up historical accuracy again , but then please don't forget that the 232 had Radios Hence that big [censored] antenna . While French Armor had none ( radios)

Also I doubt that the Allied forces rolled around the European country side in their Dacs and Pannies and went on Axis Tank hunting excursions. 

 

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bus0

As to the damage model, which advantage can you gain by that cause it really stumps me, once your damaged you gtfo and run if you can, my Hurri 2D or 2C die just absolutely fine to any AAA gun, you seem to forget that since the 'AMMO AUDIT' the Axis ammo hitting power increased, trust me, we feel it pretty good on this side.

Again your mixing their roles, if a player takes a Dac/Pan to go hunting Armor that pretty much equals stupid in my book and is not its primary function. Pretty much proving my point this camp cause that is exactly what I'm doing this campaign, scouting, some say camping but to each his own.

I'd use the 232 in the same role, with teammates communicating where when and how etc, I'd still have the same number of kills or close to it. We all have radio's now ;)

Your historical rant about all of us wanting that is negative captain, I just want anything that will kill you available. Just as long as its not the 47mm vs the Tiger.

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dre21
2 hours ago, bus0 said:

As to the damage model, which advantage can you gain by that cause it really stumps me, once your damaged you gtfo and run if you can, my Hurri 2D or 2C die just absolutely fine to any AAA gun, you seem to forget that since the 'AMMO AUDIT' the Axis ammo hitting power increased, trust me, we feel it pretty good on this side.

Again your mixing their roles, if a player takes a Dac/Pan to go hunting Armor that pretty much equals stupid in my book and is not its primary function. Pretty much proving my point this camp cause that is exactly what I'm doing this campaign, scouting, some say camping but to each his own.

I'd use the 232 in the same role, with teammates communicating where when and how etc, I'd still have the same number of kills or close to it. We all have radio's now ;)

Your historical rant about all of us wanting that is negative captain, I just want anything that will kill you available. Just as long as its not the 47mm vs the Tiger.

Am I talking Hurricane ? Nope .

What you equal or don't doesn't play into the books , it's not about YOU its about the overall gameplay. DAC and Panny can kill pretty much all of Axis Armor after tier 0 , it's not that hard to understand but if you don't want to understand that then I can't help you nor is it worth my time to discuss it with you.

And it's not a rant it's a fact . Allied players want certain Historical aspects like the FG42 as Paratrooper weapon only . Fine we will take that but Spits and British Airfields will go to England cause Historical that's where they were just as the FG42 were with Para units. You like to pick and choose and it doesn't work that way Period.

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