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World War II Online is a Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter based in Western Europe between 1939 and 1943. Through land, sea, and air combat using a ultra-realistic game engine, combined with a strategic layer, in the largest game world ever created - We offer the best WWII simulation experience around.

zippy33

Stg44

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zippy33

How is?

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stankyus

I hear it shoots backwards

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kazee

It's totally sick, great job by the crew working on it and CRS

However its stamina is not correct; its classified as a 'rifle' correct ? 

But does not have the stamina/running of a rifle, nor does the FG42...both have the smg stamina rate 

It's a great weapon but stamina rate needs to be fixed to its correct 'auto-rifle' status

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TheCat

afaik...stamina is still borked    the smanina you get  isn't related to what you spawned in.  

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Tatonka

cant find it on the training server 

 

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OHM

i have gotten to adding them to the training server yet

 

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Tatonka

Ah , thks for reply :) 

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OHM

ok they should be in there now

 

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stankyus

I spent about an 2 hours offline at the range with it.  IMHO I find the "feel" very generous. I have a Legend Series AKS with match trigger with a chrome lined bull barrel. I also have it tweaked by a gun smith on the trigger pull and hold. However my AKS is heavy, about 8 pounds, mb 10 loaded.  What I find very similar to the two is the ballistics are very similar. That part of the StG44 ingame with my AK is very similar.  However the ingame StG44 recoil and flash  is about half of my AKS and my AK has a longer barrel than the StG44. Its about 6 inches longer than a standard AK47.

The accuracy in game is what you would expect out to the 400m mark. I spent quite some time using it as a single shot.  You can only hold aim for a very short period of time before the sway kicks in and if you hold for just a bit longer your aim starts being effected by the ocean tide. Snap shots yielded really good results. IE not holding but a  half second to aim... the post is thin so you don't hide the target with it, The G43 lovers tend to pop off two shots quickly will love this gun. This worked real well. 

 

I tested using 4 respawns for ammo at 1-200m  5 at 30m and around 9 respawns for ammo at the 400m mark. I did 2 respawns for ammo for the farthest target, did not take much to tell me all I needed to know at that range.

At 100m semi or full auto put all the 30 into the 7 ring or better..  hardly any difference getting all the rounds into the black out to about 300m with very FEW in the white overall. 300m Full auto each mag usually had 27 out of 30 in the black on average. 400m that dropped to about 20-25, in the black, 5-10 in the white and one or two outside the white. The outside the target usually where do to first shot too low or last 1 or 2 above.  This is full auto.. though to be fair I did not get much better results shooting singles. However aim a touch low if you go full auto out to 200m. The gun will ride up, but the recoil WILL NOT make  your rounds from go wild like the SMGs or BAR ingame. The cone of dispersion is small at those ranges.  30 round mag full auto  bullet path is about 4-6 inches wide and rides straight up about as high as the size of white circle at 400m.

I set up some avatars at the 800m or what ever the furthest targets are at the gun range. I used a Garand to see if I could even hit them at that range. Set up 8 hit 4 with my garand set at 600m.  So with the StG44... I set up 8 avatars and my best was 2 hits out of 30 rounds semi auto. I tried full, out of 9 mags manages to hit 3 in total which was the best I could manage - no good on full auto.  Ill get to that in a bit.

 

So my take is.

The StG44 is very nicely modelled. It looks great.  It feels really good to shoot, but I find its dispersion, recoil, and flash very generous. Even if its heavier, it does not mean the recoil should be less, its a top gas piston with a heavier bolt than my match grade AKS.. I would expect the recoil to be similar to atleast my AKS, instead it feels like shooting one of my ARs.  The flash, I hardly noticed.. I do notice in RL my AK flash. The rounds are very similar.

Pros: - ATM ingame

Accuracy (recoil withstanding) seems about dead on judging from being an AK fan an owner for over 28 years.

The front post site width is IMHO what all the front post sites should be on all the riffles.  Its very similar to the with of my ghost ring sites on some of my riffles, very similar to my buddies BAR sites, My cousins M1 Carbine, K98, and a touch thinner than his Mosin Nagant. It feels good and not hide your target out to 300m.

The cone of dispersion is very small out to 400m on full auto. You will fill your target with lead.

The recoil ATM is very small, by the time your next round has fired your sites are pretty much back aligned on target.

Very little muzzle flash.

Cons:

The gun has fixed sites. I kept hitting my ranging keys to see if the sites existed though I could not see them.  TBH I think this is INCORRECT, I am almost positive the STG44 had adjustable sites.

Seems like a very short time before the sway kicks in. I did not find any noticeable difference between the start of the sway regardless if you are laying down, kneeling or standing up. There might be, but I certainly did not notice.

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jwilly
Posted (edited)

This is great stuff. However:

It wouldn't be fair to adjust this gun for modeling accuracy based on this kind of first-person-experience testing/reporting, unless CRS could similarly adjust all weapons in the same class. Would CRS have the data to do that?

We know, I think, that some of the modeled weapons have shooting characteristics that are basically made up for balance reasons. If those balance considerations all were removed as part of a real-experience audit, would there be enough adjustment points available to get the game back to marketable balance?

Not that I think it applies in the current instance, but in the general case, how would CRS verify that community-provided information of this kind wasn't affected by side bias?

Edited by jwilly

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moetow

As modeled, it's a joke. Like shooting an automatic  BB rifle lol, no recoil. nothing.

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stankyus
2 hours ago, jwilly said:

This is great stuff. However:

It wouldn't be fair to adjust this gun for modeling accuracy based on this kind of first-person-experience testing/reporting, unless CRS could similarly adjust all weapons in the same class. Would CRS have the data to do that?

We know, I think, that some of the modeled weapons have shooting characteristics that are basically made up for balance reasons. If those balance considerations all were removed as part of a real-experience audit, would there be enough adjustment points available to get the game back to marketable balance?

Not that I think it applies in the current instance, but in the general case, how would CRS verify that community-provided information of this kind wasn't affected by side bias?

Well, I can say for absolute certainty that the recoil is extremely underdone. This feels like my AR 15.  It has just a tad more recoil than my cousins M1 carbine.  And yes the m1 carbine has a noticeable recoil but it is not much.
 

drop the marketable balance please. The is no other weapon in this game that has this little recoil. I would have no problem if that was the factual case, but it simply isn’t. The market value is to make equipment and ammo correctly or closely to real life given the obvious limitations. No power ups, no nerfs.

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stankyus
2 hours ago, moetow said:

As modeled, it's a joke. Like shooting an automatic  BB rifle lol, no recoil. nothing.

Moz it has recoil, it will ride up. It’s just very little recoil.  Enough that the dispersion is minuscule between Single shots or full auto at 100-400m. Which 400m btw is it’s effective range class. Commonly effective range is a 50% hit probability. The dispersal of rounds ingame on full auto is well over 50%, closer to 85-90%. That is a recoil /dispersion issue. 

I am pretty darn sure the StG 44 had adjustable sites. The one ingame does not.
 

The sway IMHO starts was to soon and there seems to be zero difference between standing, kneeling or prone.  Hold for three seconds and it’s like the gun is being influenced by the tide wave action.  While I definitely can agree with it while standing though 3 seconds is a bit to quick for muscle fatigue. It should be scaled down and start later in the kneeling or prone position. 

 

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kazee

Day ONE and already calling for a nerf haha ;)

CRS and the team did a great job....wtg guys !!

 

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HATCH

First, let me start with the statement that ALL the infantry weapons need audited. While NONE of them were set up to any "side balance" considerations, I think there is no question that they could have been implemented a bit more accurately. I mean seriously. Who with any shooting experience, has put a sight downrange, and with single shots, had a round plop in the dirt a few yards from their feet.

Anyway, I started the small arms audit awhile back and got through the mp40, luger, and K98 before other priorities put that effort on a shelf.

Pause about a year and enter the new STG44 trooper. That one has been on the shelf for finishing touches on animation artwork for awhile, but honestly speaking, Xoom got tired of it sitting there because of my anal retentive pickiness regarding some of the 3rd person animation oddities, made an executive decision, and asked me to spin it up. So I did.

Scotsman has done the research on all the small arms platforms dispersion and ballistics in the game (and some not in the game yet) and so I now have the data and tools to better implement all of the small arms physical performance attributes. Until we get a new 3d animator, we're stuck with some of the visual recoil (not the same as actual recoil, but a difference between 3d animation and actual physics happening with the weapon), although that can also be somewhat mitigated with data changes as well.

Anyway, about the new STG 44 modelling....

According to Scotsman's research, the StG44 has a single shot MOA of about 3.4 @ 100m . So that's what I set it up with, with all recoil and human factors removed from the weapon. Basically like sandbagged bench rest at the range. Then single shot recoil action from multiple slow motion video captures of the real deal were measured with a digital protractor and then averaged. After the MOA, single fire recoil, and timed return were input, the human effects were re-enabled. Being that the 7.92x33 round is MUCH less powerful than the standard 7.92x57 (even less ballistically capable than the 7.62x39 SKS/AK round), it is a MUCH more controllable weapon than anything else I think we have modeled so far. And from all the live fire video I've combed through modelling it, Scotsman's dispersion data and ballistics info, I think we've hit pretty close to the mark. We can go back and forth regarding the muscle fatigue (swaying) and ATP depletion (stamina), but I think the actual weapon performance is pretty close to the real deal. That said, we're always open to look at evidence to the contrary, so if you have it, send it my way.

About the entire small arms initiative... Although all the small arms should and will continue to have their own characteristics based on their own historic attributes, they need some love. Some more than others. I think the StG44 is a good example of the new standard that I'd like to apply to all of them in the future. Single shots will meet historical MOA's and there will be no more rounds falling at your feet (well, unless maybe your running when your shooting). But its a lot of tedious work researching, slowmoing vids, and dialing them in like that. It will take awhile to get through all of them at once, and  I don't see that big of a window opening up in my task list at any time in the near future. so in lieu of that, you might hit Zebbeee up for a small arms audit poll where we can prioritize them by your input, and then I can probably squeeze in one or two a patch moving forward now that I have the tools and process all worked out.

Oh, and just for the record... There were 3 new infantry weapons on the shelf in various states of completion. One was the stg44, the others are the m2 Carbine and the Browning M1919a6. Only reason the Stg went out first is because it was the closest to finished before our 3d animator took his leave. So if you have any friends that are experienced in that sort if stuff and that don't mind a little volunteer work, and you want the other two to follow the stg44 into the client sooner rather than later, please send them our way!

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jwilly

@ZEBBEEEPlease review next-to-last paragraph above...

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saffroli

It felt like a lazer when I tried it offline, but in the "real world" campaign gameplay it's not QUITE as effective as shooting range exercises would suggest, but there's no recoil to speak of that much is true. It's very much like the MP44 in Call Of Duty 2, which however unrealistic that may be, it feels great to play with and makes the game feel more contemporary imo.

I have found that training exercises seem to yield very favourable results, you get into the field and the equipment not only performs differently but behaves slightly differently, and it goes back to something undercova said about the packet loss when there's alot of action around. [probably another reason why TZ3 is so popular for axis]

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ZEBBEEE
4 hours ago, jwilly said:

@ZEBBEEEPlease review next-to-last paragraph above...

A poll? Sure!

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uberares

HA! Just yesterday we said "oh they'll be calling to nerf the stg before long".


That didnt take long.


Got to get one out into combat yesterday, never having touched it before. Got 2 kills, and was killed at 30 yrds by a tommy gun spraying away, perfectly accurate from the hip. There are 3 of them per spawn list. 3. That's not going to affect the game and cause massive axis wins over and over again where only rank 7 people can even touch them.

Was it fun? Yes. Was it smooth? Very much so.  Was I a superhero running around an killing everyone at full run in full auto? Not even remotely close.

Remember this is the worlds first "assault" rifle, specifically designed to be more controllable under full auto fire. Could there be game related issues, such as the accuracy from aim to hip? Sure, but as stated all weapons have similar issues.

I sincerely hope CRS doesnt change this at all, of very little if found to be necessary.

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moetow

Yeah, because it's BS compared to every other gun in the game. 

You can honestly use that thing and say nothing is wrong?   

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james10

Hello saffroli how are you doing?

6 hours ago, saffroli said:

...
  It's very much like the MP44 in Call Of Duty 2, which however unrealistic that may be
...

I do find your comment interesting.

It would be remiss to compare how one game handles weapon capabilities with other games.

It is interesting in that the original name within the German weapons establishment for the weapon that did eventually come to be known as the StG44 was actually MP44. It was called this to avoid the attention of Hitler as he had forbade the development of a NEW rifle. Machine Pistol development was another story so the prototypes were designated initially MP43 and then when 1944 rolled around MP44. The weapon was eventually demonstrated to Hitler and it was he that apparently gave it the name of Sturmgewehr 44, "assault rifle 44". This being the case the weapon in Call of Duty 2 named MP44 should be correctly named StG44.

Cheers.

 

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stankyus
10 hours ago, kazee said:

Day ONE and already calling for a nerf haha ;)

CRS and the team did a great job....wtg guys !!

 

Never called for a nerf. I have no problem if you go back a read with the single shots.  It what I expected balistically. Feels dead on.
 

The full auto shot groupings are almost the same if you are aiming and firing single shots. That is a recoil issue. You are not going to do groups like that on full auto.  Part of that is because the animation is not severe enough. 
 

That is not about a nerf and the very fact that you saw it to and expected a discussion about is rather telling.

pleas note however that I also pointed out that it’s missing adjustable sites and the sway issue.  You calling that a nerf too?

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jwilly
47 minutes ago, moetow said:

Yeah, because it's BS compared to every other gun in the game. 

You can honestly use that thing and say nothing is wrong?   

That's not a very quantifed or evidenced complaint. 

Hatch explained the current-model recoil based on the round energy and RoF. 

Stanky OTOH bases his comments on having fired a semi version of the same gun...or at least, pretty similar. That seems to me to be evidence.

Hatch welcomed evidence sent his way. That seems a pretty reasonable approach. If "it's BS", presumably that's based on evidence?

As a side point, note that what we see in the visual animations is irrelevant to the quantified recoil effects and accuracy. I know that we want and expect the visuals and measurables to match up, but that's not how game modeling works. 

Quote

Part of that is because the animation is not severe enough. 

 

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stankyus

Actually jwilly it is part of the issue. If you lose site of the target you tend to move the gun to find it which effects your accuracy. That is one reason why ingame the weapons don’t seem like they do at the range. The range targets don’t move or shoot back.

I have fired full auto standard AK but i don’t think it would be a fair comparison. So I didn’t go there.

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HATCH

Just for Reference, MOA and MILS Explained Is a pretty good article explaining the MOA comments in my previous post.

Also, here are a few good STG44 youtube videos. The first, a direct comparison to the slightly more powerful AK.

 

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